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Eliminate private schools?

Well you nailed it. They have to have a stake in it. People don't have a stake in government, government is always somebody else's problem. Why do you think we have so many litterbugs in public parks?

Having a stake in it, that means buying it. Earning it. That's the free market. People have a stake in the things they buy.
People certainly have a stake in most of the things that they buy. However, buying something from the private industry is not the only way to have a stake in something. Wealthy parents whose kids go to public schools have a stake in those schools and they tend to do very well.
 
That's just it they're not. We can make public schools look just as good if they purge, and leave behind.

Well, maybe they need to start purging themselves of the kids who don't want to be there, rather than graduating them on up the chain, when they can't even meet grade-level standards.
 
Catholic school isn't right for everybody. What you look down on as "purging" is only problematic because the ones who get kicked out of private schools either have to go to the mind numbing public schools or nothing. Whose fault is it that there isn't an entrepreneurial spirit there to pick up the slack? If it wasn't for this massive distortion in the market, the troublemakers who get kicked out of Catholic and Methodist schools would have affordable reform schools to get sent to.

Again, any school can look like it is doing well if it purges problems. All teachers would love to trach a room full of high perfroming students. But if average is a real measure, most will be average. If you're stacking the deck, as many private schools do, than that is a skew view of their skill. I know what is done in the classroom, and I have a standing challenge for anyone to show any real difference in their what they tach or how they teach it. The difference is the student that have.

And when the measure is results, no one want to tackle the hard job. The private sector shows this repeatedly.
 
Well, maybe they need to start purging themselves of the kids who don't want to be there, rather than graduating them on up the chain, when they can't even meet grade-level standards.

We can do that, but let's not pretend that this is why private schools LOOK better. Take your worse perfroming school, remove the problem children, and they will LOOK better.
 
People certainly have a stake in most of the things that they buy. However, buying something from the private industry is not the only way to have a stake in something. Wealthy parents whose kids go to public schools have a stake in those schools and they tend to do very well.

Sure, and poor people have a stake in their schools, and litterbugs have a stake in public parks, too. It's all about how compelling that stake is. In the rich neighborhoods where the trophy wives/soccer moms have nothing better to do, that PTA can get a pretty swollen slush fund. But in the poor neighborhoods the parents both work or they are a single parent household and either way cannot afford to put the time and effort into the school. Not to mention the taxes in the rich neighborhood raise more revenue than the poor.

So the point is that you have a very compelling stake in something when it is bought, not as much when you are getting it for free. So the parents are not going to make the time to pitch in at the free school when you are struggling just to put food on the table. So there will always be this imbalance, the wealth disparity creates the apathy towards the gifts. Some people think of this as an entitlement society, like people get lazy because they are give food stamps instead of working. But that's BS. It's hard as hell being poor, and after working two minimum wage jobs just to make rent people are too wiped out to help their kids with their homework.
 
Again, any school can look like it is doing well if it purges problems. All teachers would love to trach a room full of high perfroming students. But if average is a real measure, most will be average. If you're stacking the deck, as many private schools do, than that is a skew view of their skill. I know what is done in the classroom, and I have a standing challenge for anyone to show any real difference in their what they tach or how they teach it. The difference is the student that have.

And when the measure is results, no one want to tackle the hard job. The private sector shows this repeatedly.

You act like kids don't get kicked out of public schools, or that public schools don't give up on kids. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. Public schools fail all kids. Private schools at least do something for some kids. If government got out of the way, there would be a private option to meet the needs of the kids on the bottom of the societal ladder instead of just those at the top.
 
Sure, and poor people have a stake in their schools, and litterbugs have a stake in public parks, too. It's all about how compelling that stake is. In the rich neighborhoods where the trophy wives/soccer moms have nothing better to do, that PTA can get a pretty swollen slush fund. But in the poor neighborhoods the parents both work or they are a single parent household and either way cannot afford to put the time and effort into the school. Not to mention the taxes in the rich neighborhood raise more revenue than the poor.

So the point is that you have a very compelling stake in something when it is bought, not as much when you are getting it for free. So the parents are not going to make the time to pitch in at the free school when you are struggling just to put food on the table. So there will always be this imbalance, the wealth disparity creates the apathy towards the gifts. Some people think of this as an entitlement society, like people get lazy because they are give food stamps instead of working. But that's BS. It's hard as hell being poor, and after working two minimum wage jobs just to make rent people are too wiped out to help their kids with their homework.

As a former poor kid, project dweller, who had a mother who was on fodo stamps for a while (that and free beans and cheese). I don't htink you know us very well. You have a lot of mistaken views and stereo types that don't speak to the whole.
 
You act like kids don't get kicked out of public schools, or that public schools don't give up on kids. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. Public schools fail all kids. Private schools at least do something for some kids. If government got out of the way, there would be a private option to meet the needs of the kids on the bottom of the societal ladder instead of just those at the top.

Not in the same number or same way. Public schools are not really selective. And no, there is nothing stoppiong the private sector from stepping up today. Nothing prevents anyone from going to a school that meets their needs that they can afford, or the private sector from providing an affordable school that meets the need. If you knew how learning works, you might understand why.
 
As a former poor kid, project dweller, who had a mother who was on fodo stamps for a while (that and free beans and cheese). I don't htink you know us very well. You have a lot of mistaken views and stereo types that don't speak to the whole.

It's an accurate generalization, and you can only take your anecdotal experience so far.
 
We can do that, but let's not pretend that this is why private schools LOOK better. Take your worse perfroming school, remove the problem children, and they will LOOK better.

What is the public school drop-out rate, compared to the percentage of private school students who are *removed*?
 
Not in the same number or same way. Public schools are not really selective. And no, there is nothing stoppiong the private sector from stepping up today. Nothing prevents anyone from going to a school that meets their needs that they can afford, or the private sector from providing an affordable school that meets the need. If you knew how learning works, you might understand why.

Yeah public schools are not selective at all. And the teachers don't give a **** about the students because they are just bureaucrats moving cattle. All that matters is the standardized test, that's the only thing that influences a teacher's paycheck. Not the success of the student, but the success of the student on a standardized test. The bureaucrat has no true motivation. You may get the odd bird who likes helping people, but if you're relying on that you've already lost. People only care about money. You want to get results for students? Make the teacher's paycheck dependent on it. The only way to accomplish that is complete privatization. It already has worked for the upper class. Government needs to get out of the way and let it work for the lower class.
 
According to Warren Buffet, an easy way to eliminate the problems of urban education would be to 'Make private schools illegal and assign every child to a public school by random lottery.'

Do you agree or disagree?

It would work. It would also be morally unconscionable.

I'm on food stamps. It sucks. Therefore, we should ban the private sale of food in order to force rich people to improve the quality of food stamps. I'm as avid a supporter of the public school system as it gets, but it is at its heart a welfare program-- it provides education (of debatable quality) to the children of families that lack the wherewithal to provide it for themselves. We should certainly attempt to make the quality of the education as strong as we possibly can, but the idea of forcing people into a welfare program in order to motivate them to institute welfare reform is so morally repugnant as to be physically sickening.

I'm normally a pretty big fan of Buffett, but he's out of line on this.
 
What is the public school drop-out rate, compared to the percentage of private school students who are *removed*?

I actually think that is irrelevant. A better comparison would be a private school expulsion rate vs. the number of public students dropping out, expelled, plus the ones who just coast through school like zombies. A student who graduates from a private school can be considered educated, no matter what. At private school the students are educated, whether the student likes it or not. But a student who graduates from public school has not necessarily received an education, and thus you cannot compare a public school graduate to a private school graduate.
 
It would work. It would also be morally unconscionable.

I'm on food stamps. It sucks. Therefore, we should ban the private sale of food in order to force rich people to improve the quality of food stamps. I'm as avid a supporter of the public school system as it gets, but it is at its heart a welfare program-- it provides education (of debatable quality) to the children of families that lack the wherewithal to provide it for themselves. We should certainly attempt to make the quality of the education as strong as we possibly can, but the idea of forcing people into a welfare program in order to motivate them to institute welfare reform is so morally repugnant as to be physically sickening.

I'm normally a pretty big fan of Buffett, but he's out of line on this.

Viktyr, sometimes I agree with you on so much it scares me.
 
Students in private schools are on average going to come from wealthier families than students in typical public schools. But it's not really the students themselves who are the topic of this idea. It's the parents. If you were the parent of a child, and if you really cared about that childs education, and if you had wealth, and the power and political pull that tends to be associated with wealth, would you not make an effort to fix the shortcomings of that school however you can?

This isn't about harming the good students, it's about everyone having skin in the SAME game, so that those with power will be incentivised to pull up the quality of all schools for all students, instead of them just using their wealth individually to cure their individual problem (quality school for their kids).

Everyone already has equal opportunity, hence the public school system. Like you said, it's the parents. It's possible to come from a poor socioeconomic background and to go to an inner-city public school, yet still excel academically. Look at Dr. Ben Carson... he went to a really crummy inner-city high school in Detriot, but he actually cared about his education and is now one of the most renowned pediatric neurosurgeons in the world. The point is: mixing socioeconomic classes may increase the level of "opportunity", but NOT results.

My highschool is ranked nationally around 50. If you sign up for Molecular Genetics, you get to use a $150,000 DNA coding machine that was donated to the school by a chemical company. Again, this is a public school in an outrageously wealthy suburb. Our school was renovated about 15 years ago, so it essentially brand new. I am privileged to not only be in a brand new school, but to have a school with extremely expensive equipment. Now, I also know TONS of students in below average classes and failing these below average classes. They may be in lower level classes, but they have the same great teachers. Their teachers also teach AP Biology, Multivariable Calculus and so forth. BUT THEY STILL FAIL, even though they have the same above average resources. Why? Like you said, it's the parents.

Keep in mind, my public high school is an "elite" high school, and it still has a decent amount of students doing poorly. Now to put this no private school idea into perspective, all of the high schools would be average. Out of the total population, only a few percent of families are "rich". My school has lets say: 40% rich families, 50% middle to upper middle class, 8% lower middle class, and 2% lower class. If socioeconomic classes are distributed evenly, then these statistics (or the upside pyramid shape they form) will be reversed (2% rich, 8% upper mid etc) and instead form a pyramid of socioeconmic status.

It's all about the parents! No matter where you put the damn kids, the ones that want to succeed will succeed, and the ones that don't will not. The smart kids will take the smart classes, the dumb kids will take the dumb ones. Yes, there are kids who want to do well but instead fail because they lack resources. But, those are the only kids you will help, and comparatively speaking, there are not a whole lot of them.

In fact, if you have a school with extremely high expectations, then you may even have more students struggle because they are being challenged pass their ability. Why take AP World History and work really really hard to pull off a B, maybe even a C, when you can take regular or honors World History and get an EASY A. The AP success rates in my school are much higher than national averages because the classes are designed to be harder than the actual AP, so when the AP test comes around, our school kicks ass. So with my AP classes, the amazing teachers always make the class harder than they really need to be. Kids struggle to get a C or B on their report card, but have no problem pulling a 4 or 5 on the AP. Whereas, other kids I know in other parts of my county take the exact same classes, pull of an easy A, then struggle to pull a 3 or 4 on the AP. Think about it, my school has high expectations and an above average population, and they indeed struggle to do well. So with really high expectations and a population not willing to exceed the expectations, you may actually be increasing the gap between the failing and succeeding... students that excel will be forced to excel further, and students that don't excel will struggle to meet ends meet... if they already performed "average" in "average" classes, then they will perform poorly in harder classes. Now if you try to argue that the students can always opt to take really easy classes and do well, then you just proved my point. Students will not just do well, they will perform amazingly because they will take advantage of the amazing teachers and resources you have, and others will subordinate themselves. You are creating a super elite that will tower above the rest. Aside from all of the logistical problems with relocating millions of children randomly throughout the state on a daily basis, the practicality of the plan just isn't there: it'll probably make the results worse instead of improving them.

Going back to your comment, everyone will have the same opportunity to a quality education, but the results will not improve, and may even get worse. You can't just put a bunch of fat unathletic dorks on a brand new top of the line soccer field and expect them to do well. Of the 70% of people that graduate high school, only a certain amount of people move on to college, and of the people moving on to college, only a certain amount attend prestigious colleges. And then again, not everyone finishes college, especially in less prestigious colleges. No matter what platform you provide, higher education will always seem to be esoteric. You are trying to use government power and resources to fix a problem that can't be fixed by anyone except the individual. So the whole thought of banning private schools is just beyond absurd and ridiculous.
 
Again, any school can look like it is doing well if it purges problems. All teachers would love to trach a room full of high perfroming students. But if average is a real measure, most will be average. If you're stacking the deck, as many private schools do, than that is a skew view of their skill. I know what is done in the classroom, and I have a standing challenge for anyone to show any real difference in their what they tach or how they teach it. The difference is the student that have.

And when the measure is results, no one want to tackle the hard job. The private sector shows this repeatedly.

So true. Yet the obvious solution to public education is ignored.

Which is why I will live on beans and ramen to pay for a private school for my daughters. I don't want my daughters education effected by problem students the schools refuse to deal with.
 
This is not an argument. Do you have one?


Actually, the argument is that eliminating private schools would make all schools "work" instead of just some schools. Therefore, "working" is the priority and in fact, it makes "working" the priority for all students not just the ones who have the money to go to private school.

It wouldn't make "all" schools work. You said in an earlier post that if the rich didn't know where their kids would wind up, they'd work harder to make all the schools good. One flaw in that thought process, however.

Example:

How many rich people live in the ghetto? Exactly. They don't. The 'rich' will still have the best in public schools to send their own children to, and the 'poor' schools will still be poor.

Instead of doing away with private schools, why don't we consider a voucher program for parents of middle to lower income families so that they have a choice as well?
 
Sure, it's not practical, thats one of the many reasons that I said in my first post that we shouldn't do it.

But wealthy parents are often just as important as caring families in getting something accomplished. In my example above, I as a community member cared, and the lady doing the volunteer work cared, but neither of us have political pull, or the time, or money, that would be required to fix the problem. I actually personally reported the issue about the condition of that part of the school two years ago. Nothing was done. This summer a group of parents cleand the mold and mildew off the walls and at their own time and expense repainted, but the actual problem (leaky roof) was not repaired. The district says that due to the budget cutbacks they can't afford to make the repairs. but I bet if more of the rich folk in our community had kids in that school, they would somehow find the money.

you might want to take a look at the districts budget. You will probaly find fat in there that the district dont consider fat. Like their salaries for one, the number of adminstrators two there is usually some hanky panky in the budget too but it will be more dificult to find but not impossible. See if an accountant with a student at the school will go over the books. There enough money in there to fix your roof you just have to navigate the maze. I once did that for my brothers kids, their were some very unhappy people but the school got repaired. My kids go to private school just for socializing only. They have private tutors which to be frank are more exepnsive but well worth the expence. They will NEVER set foot into a public school as its students.
 
It would work. It would also be morally unconscionable.

I'm on food stamps. It sucks. Therefore, we should ban the private sale of food in order to force rich people to improve the quality of food stamps. I'm as avid a supporter of the public school system as it gets, but it is at its heart a welfare program-- it provides education (of debatable quality) to the children of families that lack the wherewithal to provide it for themselves. We should certainly attempt to make the quality of the education as strong as we possibly can, but the idea of forcing people into a welfare program in order to motivate them to institute welfare reform is so morally repugnant as to be physically sickening.

I'm normally a pretty big fan of Buffett, but he's out of line on this.

Buffett for all intents and purposes is scum as far as I am concerned. His virtue has no substance, its just plating. He is NOT, what he has been made out to be. Most of his business practices are not ones that I seek to emulate.
 
This is one of the dumbest thing I ever read.

How about that? Elitism as the most stubborn obstacle to school reform. Not teachers' unions, dysfunctional families, lazy students or black prejudice against a Korean American schools chancellor, but reluctance by the city's haves to share classrooms with the have-nots. You most likely didn't hear that debated at any candidates' forum.

So basically the problem is the haves can send their children to better schools. If we just made everyone go to schools that sucked then everyone would want to fix them and all the reasons public schools sucked would go away. The logic in that is nonexistent.
 
According to Warren Buffet, an easy way to eliminate the problems of urban education would be to 'Make private schools illegal and assign every child to a public school by random lottery.'

Do you agree or disagree?
I assume he's suggesting that such a law be passed by one or more states in the union. If he is suggesting that such a law be passed by the federal legislature, I would suggest that he review the powers of congress:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

None of these powers would allow such a bill to be passed, as far as I can see.
 
I assume he's suggesting that such a law be passed by one or more states in the union. If he is suggesting that such a law be passed by the federal legislature, I would suggest that he review the powers of congress:

None of these powers would allow such a bill to be passed, as far as I can see.

Eh, I'm sure the SCOTUS could come up with some justification if they were politically motivated to do so.
 
Eh, I'm sure the SCOTUS could come up with some justification if they were politically motivated to do so.

Yes, the supreme court can decide cases any way they wish.
 
So really the constitution has no meaning beyond what a partisan high court gives it.
I would disagree and say that it has meaning, but the supreme court can ignore this meaning and decide however they wish.
 
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