Don’t forget how the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler [W:115]

[Anglo-scot]

That's fine. If they wanted to do it through the medium of interpretive dance, that would be fine too.

And IMHO, that's not fine at all; that's deeply disrespectful of the dead on all sides.

How would it have contributed to that?

I don't think we can get any really clear picture of how much the ordinary Russian people are behind Putin. With no free media and no free and fair elections, how can you tell? Vox popping people on the streets of Moscow isn't a very accurate gauge of public opinion, so what stats and data are we to use?

I've taught many Russians online in the last year who live in Russia and so my belief that support for Putin is strong is primarily anecdotal. The issue of free media is important because part of Putin's support comes from skewed media reporting, but the support is strong nonetheless.

A quick search brought up this article Why do Russians still support Vladimir Putin? The article quotes polling stats and interviews with ordinary Russians showing overwhelming support for Putin. If I see contrary evidence, I'll reconsider my opinion.

I don't see how Russia's military display in itself disrespects the war dead of other countries. It's a bigger display than other countries but we do them too and there's no report of any evidence of Russia snubbing other nations with the display.

Russian people are hurt that the West is punishing them with sanctions, despite having living standards which are already much lower than ours. They are hurt by our historical failures to acknowledge their war dead, which is an important element of the Russian national identity. If we show sincerely that we do honour their contribution, something which costs us nothing but good manners, then they will feel more inclined to constructive dialogue. Gestures of humanity and solidarity are important to all of us.

 

[PeteEU]

If you want to use that argument you may as well ascribe it to the entire war.

It would actually be the correct answer. Had Hitler not called off Operation Sealion and had Hitler not switched out of spite from bombing the RAF to bombing cities, then the Brits would have been rolled over easily.

 

[Fletch]

... imo your posts provide a very good illustration of what the article is talking about.

The inability to go beyond the usual rabid USSR/Stalin/whatnot bashing, being incapable to understand the sacrifice of the Soviet people (not only Russians) that fought for their freedom and the freedom of the world from Nazism.

Yes, so that they could live under the 'freedom' of Stalinism. As bad as Hitler was, Stalin was probably worse. Lucky for him that Hitler stole the limelight.

 

[Dayton3]

What are you talking about.

Their treaty with Hitler agreeing to divide up Poland.

 

[Andalublue]

It would actually be the correct answer. Had Hitler not called off Operation Sealion and had Hitler not switched out of spite from bombing the RAF to bombing cities, then the Brits would have been rolled over easily.

Two points:

1. Who knows why Hitler switched the bombing campaign from airfield to urban areas. The RAF perhaps did such an extraordinary job of keeping its planes in the air despite drastic losses on the ground and amongst air crew, that Hitler was persuaded that his strategy wasn't working. Your mistaken response is your enemy's achievement, no?
2. Operation Sealion could have succeeded, but it's very far from certain that it would. Resistance would have been far stronger than say German resistance to D-Day - no splitting of forces, an active and hostile civilian population, a still-formidable navy (Germany never controlled the English channel) and a resolute leadership.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The Soviets suffered 80% of combat deaths in WWII. However, one also cannot forget the heavy assistance Stalin and the Red Army received from the Allies.

The United States gave to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 jeeps and trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil), 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, heavy machinery cars, and an entire Ford tire plant. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars.

Between June 1941 and May 1945 Britain contributed 3,000+ Hurricanes to the USSR along with 4,000+ other aircraft, 5,218 tanks, 5,000+ anti-tank guns, 4,020 ambulances and trucks, 323 machinery trucks, 2,560 bren carriers, 1,721 motorcycles, £1.15bn worth of aircraft engines and 15 million pairs of boots in total 4 million tonnes of war materials including food and medical supplies were delivered. The munitions totaled £308m (not including naval munitions supplied), the food and raw materials totaled £120m in 1946 index. Naval assets supplied included a battleship, 9 destroyers, 4 submarines, 5 mine sweepers, 9 trawler minesweepers, over 600 radar and sonar sets, 41 anti submarine batteries, several hundred naval guns and rocket batteries.

Lend Lease

 

[Andalublue]

I've taught many Russians online in the last year who live in Russia and so my belief that support for Putin is strong is primarily anecdotal. The issue of free media is important because part of Putin's support comes from skewed media reporting, but the support is strong nonetheless.

A quick search brought up this article Why do Russians still support Vladimir Putin? The article quotes polling stats and interviews with ordinary Russians showing overwhelming support for Putin. If I see contrary evidence, I'll reconsider my opinion.

I've no doubt that support for Putin is strong, after all, look how well sabre-rattling and jingoistic nationalism plays in our nations in the west. My point is that I don't think any of the sources coming out of Russia are reliable. That article was a good explanation for why he may remain popular, although 2 of the 5 reasons given are economic prosperity reasons and the middle class Russians and their welfare-dependants are both going to be severely hit in the coming months and years as long as oil prices remain low. There was one phrase in it that rang a clanging mis-tone. It's this one: "Let’s put aside the possibility of rigged polls because there is little to suggest Putin’s popularity is fake." I've no doubt his popularity is real, but given that very real likelihood of Russian elections being severely rigged, the scale of his popularity is highly questionable.

I don't see how Russia's military display in itself disrespects the war dead of other countries. It's a bigger display than other countries but we do them too and there's no report of any evidence of Russia snubbing other nations with the display.

You don't see parades of military might held like that in western countries. It's disrespectful because commemoration events are meant to honour the dead, not glorify the means by which they were killed.

Russian people are hurt that the West is punishing them with sanctions, despite having living standards which are already much lower than ours. They are hurt by our historical failures to acknowledge their war dead, which is an important element of the Russian national identity. If we show sincerely that we do honour their contribution, something which costs us nothing but good manners, then they will feel more inclined to constructive dialogue. Gestures of humanity and solidarity are important to all of us.

I think last year's D-Day memorials showed a great deal of respect to our Soviet allies and their massive contribution to the overall victory. Putin was fully involved, but he wasn't subjected to displays of French, British and US military might. He was warmly received and given due prominence. Having invaded a neighbouring country and harrassed western shipping and air traffic in very recent months, the Russian public cannot be surprised that normal relations have been suspended. Or perhaps they are surprised, because they are simply ignorant of what Putin is doing in their name and the extent of the principled opposition to his expansionist policies. How could they know? Domestic media is muzzled and supine, access to the internet is severely restricted in certain categories of content.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Russian people are hurt that the West is punishing them with sanctions, despite having living standards which are already much lower than ours.

What about the hurt the Kremlin has inflicted on its neighbor Ukraine during the past year?

Invasion. Illegal annexation. Partition. Devastated infrastructure in contested regions. 8,000+ military/civilian dead. 1.2 million displaced.

 

[PeteEU]

Two points:
Who knows why Hitler switched the bombing campaign from airfield to urban areas.

We know, it is a fact of history. The RAF bombed Berlin as a result mistake bombing of the outskirts of London by the Luffwaffe. Look it up, it has actually been in most history books for decades. A German bomber group got lost and instead of bombing their target, they bombed London, which was in fact against Hitlers direct order.

This in turn pissed off Churchill, who then sent a bombing raid on Berlin.

The RAF perhaps did such an extraordinary job of keeping its planes in the air despite drastic losses on the ground and amongst air crew, that Hitler was persuaded that his strategy wasn't working. Your mistaken response is your enemy's achievement, no?

And that again is not what happened. Even Dowding admitted after the war that the RAF was about a day way from total collapse when the German switch to populated areas happened. This is also part of history but it is only the last few years/or decade that we learned that the collapse of Fighter Command was much closer than known. The German Luffewaffe had all but won the Battle of Britain when they switched to bombing cities instead of the RAF. This meant the RAF could recover and well the arrogance and stupidity of Hitler meant that the German losses increased massively and ultimately they lost the Battle of Britain.

Operation Sealion could have succeeded, but it's very far from certain that it would.

Had the RAF been destroyed then it would have been succeeded. There is no doubt about that.. not even the cliffs of Dover could stop that.

Resistance would have been far stronger than say German resistance to D-Day - no splitting of forces, an active and hostile civilian population, a still-formidable navy (Germany never controlled the English channel) and a resolute leadership.

The British Army was in tatters with next to no hardware.. they left it on the beaches of Dunkirk. Yes there was plans to defend the UK and I have seen some of them, but you cant fight a war without weapons. The German firepower and air superiority would have flattened any British forces pure and simple.

Listen, it is always hard to admit that it was the stupidity of the opposition and not your skills that made you win.. but in the case of the WW2, the stupidity of Hitler caused his own downfall... or at least the start of it.

First stupidity was switching from the RAF to cities.. his anger and arrogance was the cause of this. The first RAF bombing of Berlin might have been a tactical failure but it was strategic brilliance in the long run.

Second stupidity was attacking the Soviets in the first place and then multiple stupid things during the campaign.. like throwing so many men and hardware against 2 cities just because of their name.

Thirdly was on D-Day, where the drug habit of Hitler meant that the landings became successful as German tank reserves were held back long enough because Hitler was sleeping.. long enough to gain a foothold and reinforce the troops to take on the SS tanks when they finally did come. Had the SS tanks been dispatched as soon as the landings had happened, then well...

It is small things like this that caused the Germans too lose the war, because had they not made these mistakes then the outcome could have most likely been different.

For example.. Stalingrad and Leningrad. Hitlers focus on these two rather insignificant cities, meant that resources were taken away from the main push around Moscow. Had Moscow fallen then the Russian Ural mountains would have been open and a defeat of the Russians was very much on the tables. Instead the Russians managed to keep the Germans at bay long enough to get winter and winter troops in place and that was that.

 

[Grant]

a. Even your link:
"Hitler, for his part, had clearly laid out his plans for European Hegemony in "Mein Kampf." In his book, Hitler spoke about securing "Lebensraum" (living space) in the east, which could only mean invading Russia. Additionally, there was no attempt on the part of the Nazis to mask their venomous hatred of the Slavs, Communists and Jews. Though the Russians never displayed the same amount of hatred for other races, they certainly did not like the Germans or even Jews (despite their huge numbers in Russia); though it should be remembered that anti-Semitism was rife all over Europe at the time."

b. How about instead of giving me links to lengthy articles written by second year Uni students...you would try to articulate your thoughts a bit more clearly ...?!?!

Fallen.

That was just one page out of many on the internet and you can research them also. I never realized that this was even that controversial. There are some who apparently believe Stalin declared war against Germany in order to save the western world from Nazism and promote democracy and that we owe him our thanks for this, which means we would also have to overlook the Cold War and the atrocities committed by the Red Army and the Communists throughout Eastern Europe.. This must be New History and is so far removed from the actual reality of the situation that it becomes impossible to debate.

Since you prefer a more academic study here is one, if it is allowed to be published or sold where you live. The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Anglo-scot]

What about the hurt the Kremlin has inflicted on its neighbor Ukraine during the past year?

Invasion. Illegal annexation. Partition. Devastated infrastructure in contested regions. 8,000+ military/civilian dead. 1.2 million displaced.

Point taken. But I'm talking about diplomatic efforts to rebuild good relations, which in turn will hopefully lead to better outcomes in Ukraine and elsewhere. If other countries took issue with the American and British foreign policy atrocities of a similar scale, we would be international pariahs.

 

[Fallenangel]

That was just one page out of many on the internet and you can research them also. I never realized that this was even that controversial. There are some who apparently believe Stalin declared war against Germany in order to save the western world from Nazism and promote democracy and that we owe him our thanks for this, which means we would also have to overlook the Cold War and the atrocities committed by the Red Army and the Communists throughout Eastern Europe.. This must be New History and is so far removed from the actual reality of the situation that it becomes impossible to debate.

Since you prefer a more academic study here is one, if it is allowed to be published or sold where you live. The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seriously, WTF you're talking about...Stalin promoting democracy...do you notice that the only one that is talking about those fantasies here, is you?!?

While, both the article in the OP and me are simply talking about the huge sacrifice and contribution of USSR and the Soviet people to defeating the Nazis, a sacrifice that should never be forgotten.


PS. I see you decided to conveniently ignore the Lebensraum point, I wonder why... /sarcasm

Fallen.

 

[Fallenangel]

Yes, so that they could live under the 'freedom' of Stalinism. As bad as Hitler was, Stalin was probably worse. Lucky for him that Hitler stole the limelight.

Sigh...

I"ll just have to re-quote myself from another post:

Grant: You don't explain how people would have been better off under Russian Communism than German Nazism.
Fallen: ...let me try then; My grandparents would've been dead under "German Nazism", yet they survived and lived under "Russian Communism".


Fallen.

 

[Grant]

Seriously, WTF you're talking about...Stalin promoting democracy...do you notice that the only one that is talking about those fantasies here, is you?!?

While, both the article in the OP and me are simply talking about the huge sacrifice and contribution of USSR and the Soviet people to defeating the Nazis, a sacrifice that should never be forgotten.
PS. I see you decided to conveniently ignore the Lebensraum point, I wonder why... /sarcasm

Fallen.

Ok, Hitler attacked Russia, millions died, Hitler lost and later Russia took over Eastern Europe and million died. They were both murderous despots who broke their deal. Is that about right?

 

[Grant]

Seriously, WTF you're talking about...Stalin promoting democracy...do you notice that the only one that is talking about those fantasies here, is you?!?

While, both the article in the OP and me are simply talking about the huge sacrifice and contribution of USSR and the Soviet people to defeating the Nazis, a sacrifice that should never be forgotten.


PS. I see you decided to conveniently ignore the Lebensraum point, I wonder why... /sarcasm

Fallen.

When Hitler invaded Russia what were the Russians expected to do but fight back?

Lebensraum was an overall rational but not the main focus for the invasion of Russia.

 

[Fallenangel]

Ok, Hitler attacked Russia, millions died, Hitler lost and later Russia took over Eastern Europe and million died. They were both murderous despots who broke their deal. Is that about right?

Not really...

Ok, Hitler attacked USSR, millions died, Hitler lost and in the process USSR took over Eastern Europe and million died. Stalin and Hitler were both murderous despots who broke their deal. Yet, USSR with an invaluable contribution from its allies emerged victorious and despite the horrors of Stalinism we owe our lives to the sacrifice and bravery of the Soviet people, that sacrifice should never be forgotten.

When Hitler invaded Russia what were the Russians expected to do but fight back?

Of course they were supposed to fight back, and despite everything they did, and won. Not only Russians, but millions and millions from all over the corners of the Soviet Union and the world.

Lebensraum was an overall rational but not the main focus for the invasion of Russia.

How can you even post that when your initial "educated" reaction to this:
Lebensraum: Meaning "living space," it was a basic principle of Nazi foreign policy. Hitler believed that eastern Europe had to be conquered to create a vast German empire for more physical space, a greater population, and new territory to supply food and raw materials.
Was this:That didn't apply to Russia.

?!?

Fallen.

 

[NoC_T]

Don’t forget how the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler - The Washington Post

"In the Western popular imagination -- particularly the American one -- World War II is a conflict we won. It was fought on the beaches of Normandy and Iwo Jima, through the rubble of recaptured French towns and capped by sepia-toned scenes of joy and young love in New York. It was a victory shaped by the steeliness of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the moral fiber of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, and the awesome power of an atomic bomb.
But that narrative shifts dramatically when you go to Russia, where World War II is called the Great Patriotic War and is remembered in a vastly different light..."



I"ll be watching the Victory Parade today, remembering the millions and millions of soldiers and civilians that perished in that horrible war.


Cheers,
Fallen.

+1

Total respect. Too bad the majority are dumb enough to subsist on a staple diet of Hollywood BS.

 

[kjwins]

Their treaty with Hitler agreeing to divide up Poland.

Stalin wanted to make a deal with France & England to station troops in Poland, when they refused he made a deal with Hitler to buy time & hoped he would not attack Russia. He was acting in the interest of his own country. Nothing that started the war, & nothing that anyone else would have done in his shoes.

 

[bicycleman]

Hopefully, despite the current differences between the U.S./Europe and Russia, people won't succumb to the temptation to revise history. There's little doubt that the Soviet Union played a major role in helping make victory possible for the Allies in World War II. Also, the Soviet Union suffered horrific loss of life that shouldn't be forgotten either.

Hitler didn't plan for the Russian winters that bogged down his troops.

 

[Dayton3]

Stalin wanted to make a deal with France & England to station troops in Poland, when they refused he made a deal with Hitler to buy time & hoped he would not attack Russia. He was acting in the interest of his own country. Nothing that started the war, & nothing that anyone else would have done in his shoes.

Proof?

 

[NoC_T]

It would actually be the correct answer. Had Hitler not called off Operation Sealion and had Hitler not switched out of spite from bombing the RAF to bombing cities, then the Brits would have been rolled over easily.

Please. Denmark got its botty spanked in 6 hours!

Shortest campaign of the entire war. lulz

 

[Fletch]

Sigh...

I"ll just have to re-quote myself from another post:

Grant: You don't explain how people would have been better off under Russian Communism than German Nazism.
Fallen: ...let me try then; My grandparents would've been dead under "German Nazism", yet they survived and lived under "Russian Communism".


Fallen.

Sigh...

Sorry your parents had such an awful choice: Stalin or Hitler.

 

[Fallenangel]

Sigh...

Sorry your parents had such an awful choice: Stalin or Hitler.

:shrug:
They seem pretty happy about the choices they have made, and don't really need your pity.

Fallen.

 

[Fletch]

:shrug:
They seem pretty happy about the choices they have made, and don't really need your pity.

Fallen.

If they made a 'choice' to live under Soviet tyranny then they aren't that bright and aren't worthy of pity.

 

[Fallenangel]

If they made a 'choice' to live under Soviet tyranny then they aren't that bright and aren't worthy of pity.

They simply made the choice to live and defend their homeland.
...but after your last remark my "bright" sir, you can go **** yourself.

Fallen.