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Do militant islamic groups hate the west for what it is or for what it does?

Willoughby

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I have just been writing an essay with that as the title and i was wondeirng what your views were.

before you say anything i am not fishing for stuff to put in the essay..i have just about finished it anyway!
 

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Osama and his followers want to destroy America for "being a land of infidels." So basically, Osama's declaring a "Holy War" to eliminate us, because of our country's nature.

But i can't blame him. America has gone down the tubes morally.
 

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I never met a religion that wasn't money driven. It has to be for what we do. You know, we have a pretty big chunk of their pie. We are entrenched in their economy. I am sure that the people who put their money where OBL mouth is, do it for what we do and not for what we are. "They hate us for our freedom" is just a hollow B.S., FOXNews, Neo-drone, rightwing, chickenhawk, talking point. In fact, that's just downright stupid, if one actually takes the time to figure it out themselves.
 

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Seeker said:
But i can't blame him. America has gone down the tubes morally.

What the fluck? You can’t blame him? So the US doesn’t meet up to youre expectations and that somehow makes it ok to fly frigging planes into building?!
Excuse the fluck out of me!!
 

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Willoughby said:
I have just been writing an essay with that as the title and i was wondeirng what your views were.

before you say anything i am not fishing for stuff to put in the essay..i have just about finished it anyway!


Repressed by their own government,
maybe they need to hate to feel alive.
 

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Captain America said:
I never met a religion that wasn't money driven. It has to be for what we do. You know, we have a pretty big chunk of their pie. We are entrenched in their economy. I am sure that the people who put their money where OBL mouth is, do it for what we do and not for what we are. "They hate us for our freedom" is just a hollow B.S., FOXNews, Neo-drone, rightwing, chickenhawk, talking point. In fact, that's just downright stupid, if one actually takes the time to figure it out themselves.


Then explain the fact that the ME has been a hole well before we ever showed up.. Who's fault was it then?
 

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Seeker said:
Osama and his followers want to destroy America for "being a land of infidels." So basically, Osama's declaring a "Holy War" to eliminate us, because of our country's nature.

But i can't blame him. America has gone down the tubes morally.

I think that crashing a couple of planes into a couple of buildings full of innocent civilians is probably the most immoral exhibition of human decay that I have personally witnesses. Anyone supporting that not only has no moral ground to stand on, but are hypocrites in the truest sense of the word.

Those behind that attack, are truly the most "infidel" examples, mankind has ever had to offer. That was off the charts as far as the depths human slime has ever registered.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Then explain the fact that the ME has been a hole well before we ever showed up.. Who's fault was it then?

I can only offer an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

I think the place is a sh**-hole now, and has always been, because of many reasons. First and foremost, their repressive religion requires of them to remain somewhat in the dark ages. Their thought processes are not like most thinking human beings. They are from Mars and we are from Venus. The only thing we have in common with them is that we share the same planet. The similarities stop there.

But they have untold riches. They don't know what to do with them but they got 'em! We know what to do with them. And as long as we keep the pockets of the royalty, sheiks, and masters of the tents, fully lined, they have no problem with us being there, pulling their wealth from their ground. Ten in hand is better than a hundred in the bush.

But there are a LOT of people there who aren't getting greased. They want some of the booty too. They look around the world and see that they are being left behind. They cannot admit that their religion might have anything to do with that so they have to point the blame somewhere. They point it at us. After all, it is us who is making the big bucks pulling their oil out of their ground. It is us who is addicted to their oil. It is us living in the big houses and driving the fine cars. They think we have achieved this through their oppression. I doubt they will ever think any different either.

Even if we pulled out every investment we have there and kicked our national oil habit, the place will remain a sh** hole. But what has that to do with this thread?
 

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Rather than conjecturing based upon our western point of view and trying to portray these people as somehow western and therefore subject to the same sorts of assumptions peculiar to the west, I think it is better to read whatt hey have to day directly (or at least as directly as our lack of understanding of Arabic allows).

For instance: http://www.islamistwatch.org/texts/comms/stopsupport.html


Now, of course these creatures lie as part and parcel of their interpretation of the religion they follow (a process called Al Takeyya) when speaking to infidels, but this is still better than nothing.

A few things I might note is the amazing similarity of talking points between this letter and the rhetorec of the uber-left -- the Chomskyites and neoMarxists -- who simply recycle many of the talking points and rearrange them without the overt Islamism. Read all the references to Jews in this letter, and note the specious protestations that it is really those who protest the hatred and bigotry who are acting unfairly. I've run across countless people on the internet who vomit forth this nonsense, and who offer themes across the board that hardly vary one iota from this letter.
 

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Then explain the fact that the ME has been a hole well before we ever showed up.. Who's fault was it then?

well in terms of politics...****ed up withdrawal from colonies....US stupid policy in support of Israel
 

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Willoughby said:
well in terms of politics...****ed up withdrawal from colonies....US stupid policy in support of Israel


NO .. stop trying to blame the condition of the region on the US in it's entirety. The region as a whole has been racked by turmoil, death, oppression and poverty wayyyyyyyyyyyyy before the US showed up. My question was for those that like to balme it all on the US. If thats the case please explain to me why it was a sh1t hole before US involvement. At what point do we place the majority of the blame on those that have destroyed and oppressed there own people for generation upon generation. Capt. America actually gave a good answer....
 

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Calm is trying to point out, and rightfully so, that even though the US has made a mess of things over there, those folks hardly notice any difference as it has been a mess a loooooong time before we poured gasoline on the fire.

It will remain a mess no matter what we do. That's why I say Pull out. Don't delay. Let the cards fall where they may.

We are only fooling ourselves if we think that pulling our support from Isreal will make any difference. It might help for a month or two but I firmly believe that those people are predestinied (sp?) to suffer. It goes back centuries, if not milliniums. Why we even bother is beyond me.
 

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Why we even bother is beyond me.

some times i just despair...because they are fellow human beings...
 

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I'm curious to know what it is about the history of the middle east that makes you think it's been so horrible there for a long time?
 

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ashurbanipal said:
I'm curious to know what it is about the history of the middle east that makes you think it's been so horrible there for a long time?
From a previous post of mine...

The main reason for this clash is that the world is becoming "smaller" due to the internet, world trade, and global communications...

As long as they didn't have a notion as to what was going on in the rest of the world, they could live in their 6th century world...

But because of the global community, they are being forced to catch up, which is something they aren't really capable of due to their stagnation...Instead of jumping on the train and opening their eyes, they want to look internally to the past and try to grasp what they know instead of realizing that the headway they could make will be better for them in the long run...

The problem is "jumping on the train" is not a "yes or no" option...The answer WILL be "yes"...Technology is going way too fast for a whole civilization to be left behind...

It's just a matter of getting them to stop kicking and screaming on their way to their new school...
 

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Willoughby said:
I have just been writing an essay with that as the title and i was wondeirng what your views were.

before you say anything i am not fishing for stuff to put in the essay..i have just about finished it anyway!

Do your own homework kid.

....and the answer is both.
 

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ashurbanipal said:
I'm curious to know what it is about the history of the middle east that makes you think it's been so horrible there for a long time?


Sometimes I think you are just out for the argument.

-Low value on education
-Controlled by a brutal greedy men through a restrictive religion.
-Half the population has the rights of a pet and are not allowed to contribute to their society (no wonder they can't compete with the west).
-The latest percentage is 40. That's 40 percent unemployment in the Middle East where men can't even afford to get married. ......and the populations are booming so it will get worse.
-Constant struggle between the diversity of the sects and the interpretation of the Qu'ran leading to extreme followers that number in the millions that wish to punish "non-believers" (this includes other Muslims).
-Of course, in the middle of all this self-inflicted mess we have the Palestinian/Israeli conflict that acts as a nice diversion and America's foreign policy to keep stability for the world's oil interests for which "all is blamed." "In the Middle East the narcotic of choice is blame."

What about it is not horrible?
 

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GySgt,

I meant, when previous posters said:

Calm is trying to point out, and rightfully so, that even though the US has made a mess of things over there, those folks hardly notice any difference as it has been a mess a loooooong time before we poured gasoline on the fire.

or

The region as a whole has been racked by turmoil, death, oppression and poverty wayyyyyyyyyyyyy before the US showed up.

why they thought those things. I take both statements to mean that the history of the Middle East, going wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back a looooooong time was a mess of turmoil, death, oppression, and poverty. So I'm asking for support of those statements.
 

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ashurbanipal said:
why they thought those things. I take both statements to mean that the history of the Middle East, going wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back a looooooong time was a mess of turmoil, death, oppression, and poverty. So I'm asking for support of those statements.

Hmmmmmmm. I wouldn't make this statement. However, I would bring up the near absence of inventions and discoveries that have come out of the Middle East, which has a lot to do with the absence of creativity (or the restrictions of it). I would stay closer to the last 3 or 400 years when making the above statements. The technological and discovery boom has happened without their involvement and history has left them behind and their innumerable Radical element is determined to remain in the past. I've said it before, even after 100 years we are staring at a civilization that can't even build a car. As lucrative as their natural resource is, we should be seeing the complete opposite. Blaming the greed of their elite would be too simple. Without this greed, we are still facing a civilization that will only do what their religion will allow them. Their greatest enemy is themselves and their stagnation. We are largely imagined. How can any civilization that restricts half of their population a chance to contribute to their society compete with anyone? Our civilizations in the west is proof that "we" can believe in God and prosper while facing forward. They do, indeed, hate us for what we are without the acts of -looking the other way- that we have practiced.

There is no wonder that there is such extreme fanaticism in this region. They have no industry to speak of, yet they want nuclear power. These are not the people we want to see with nuclear arms.
 
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ashurbanipal

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Hmmmmmmm. I wouldn't make this statement.

You might not, but some other posters here did, and my question was a solicitation for an explanation from them. I happen to know a little about the history of the Middle East; on the face of it, I'd say their assertions are false but I'd like to know what they meant before offering an opinion.

However, I would bring up the near absence of inventions and discoveries that have come out of the Middle East, which has a lot to do with the absence of creativity (or the restrictions of it).

The Saudis did revolutionize drilling techniques in the 1980's, and also solved quite a number of technical challenges to mass seawater desalinization. Also, IIRC, wasn't there an Iranian mathematician recently who nearly won the nobel prize in mathematics for his work on encryption keys? I'm sure if I've heard of three or four such things, there are many other examples, though they may not match the U.S., Europe, or Japan in sheer volume.

I would stay closer to the last 3 or 400 years when making the above statements. The technological and discovery boom has happened without their involvement and history has left them behind and their innumerable Radical element is determined to remain in the past. I've said it before, even after 100 years we are staring at a civilization that can't even build a car.

Well, is it that they can't (i.e. they're incapable), or they won't, or they just see no need?

As lucrative as their natural resource is, we should be seeing the complete opposite.

Too simplistic. Read Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel for a complete, and brilliant, analysis.

Blaming the greed of their elite would be too simple. Without this greed, we are still facing a civilization that will only do what their religion will allow them. Their greatest enemy is themselves and their stagnation. We are largely imagined. How can any civilization that restricts half of their population a chance to contribute to their society compete with anyone? Our civilizations in the west is proof that "we" can believe in God and prosper while facing forward. They do, indeed, hate us for what we are without the acts of -looking the other way- that we have practiced.

In the interest of not seeming to respond to your every sentence, I'll just numerate my responses and maybe you'll see why I post as I do:

1) Yes, the greed of their elite is partially to blame (just as is ours), but this is too simple.

2) We are hardly imaginary, and our actions there are not the actions of phantasms.

3) The west was in control of the world long before western women were allowed the same basic rights as men. So this idea that because they restrict the rights of women, they're materially inferior rings hollow.

4) I think that most people in the west are really viscerally atheists. Most people pay lip service to a religion, or to the idea of a God. Imagine what the response of the average born again Christian would be to being murdered. I imagine that very, very few of them would be happy about it--despite a stated belief that they're going to heaven after they die to exist in eternal bliss. So if they really believe that, they'd maybe not be eager to die, but at least not afraid. So I think it's safe to say that most in the West don't really believe in God.

5) Saying that we look the other way is only a partial description of our actions.

6) And, implicit in your paragraph is the idea that people who don't face forward should have their resources taken from them. I think that's not correct.
 

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ashurbanipal said:
The Saudis did revolutionize drilling techniques in the 1980's, and also solved quite a number of technical challenges to mass seawater desalinization.

It had to do with oil. How very genius of them. The greed of the Sauds and other elite have allowed for no other sort of creativity. They have married their nations to their depleting oil supplies. It's too bad none of us are going to be around when they run out. Because if they do not change it will be ugly. The rest of the world will cease to have an interest and they will be left with finally having to blame themselves for their self inflicted wounds.


Also, freshwater is a crisis within the Middle East and it is going to intensify. Survival is what drove their techniques to desalinize sea water.

ashurbanipal said:
Also, IIRC, wasn't there an Iranian mathematician recently who nearly won the nobel prize in mathematics for his work on encryption keys? I'm sure if I've heard of three or four such things, there are many other examples, though they may not match the U.S., Europe, or Japan in sheer volume.

There have been plenty to note. However, they are exceptions to the general reality and to their history. Like I said...the "near" absence.

ashurbanipal said:
Well, is it that they can't (i.e. they're incapable), or they won't, or they just see no need?

Obviously, it comes down to an Arab elite that has greedily hoarded their people's money and have not allowed for the technological advances that the rest of the world has built civilizations around. Like I have said, were it not for them, the Middle East may have a very different face upon it today and we would not be dealing with so much Islamic radicalism. Other civilizations do not experience such radicalism - a tribute to the opportunities offered by our societies and to our cultural robustness.

ashurbanipal said:
Too simplistic. Read Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel for a complete, and brilliant, analysis.

Noted.

ashurbanipal said:
3) The west was in control of the world long before western women were allowed the same basic rights as men. So this idea that because they restrict the rights of women, they're materially inferior rings hollow.

Any culture which oppresses its women and excludes them from education and the workplace cannot possibly compete with the West and its intensifying human efficiency. The matter of women’s freedom is the defining issue of our age. The most profound and fateful divide between human cultures today places the failures decisively on the side that would continue to deny women their basic human rights and equitable opportunities, with the successes on the side that realizes, at last, that women are better suited to be men’s partners than their property. Despite eternally gloomy headlines, our country probably has the lowest wastage rate of human talent in the world. Even in Europe, "over-skilling," in which inherent and learned abilities wither in calcified workplaces, produces social peace at the cost of cultural and economic lethargy, security at the price of mediocrity. The occasional prime minister notwithstanding, it is far rarer to encounter a female executive, top professional, or general officer in that mythologized, "more equitable" Europe than in the United States. Change that men long resisted and feared in our own country resulted not only in greater competition for jobs, but in the creation of more jobs.

The math isn't hard. Any country or culture that suppresses half its population, excluding them from economic contribution and wasting energy keeping them out of the school and workplace, is not going to perform competitively with a nation that practices the opposite. The standard counterargument heard in failing states is that there are insufficient jobs for the male population, thus it is impossible to allow women to compete for the finite incomes available. The argument is archaic and wrong. When talent enters a work force, it creates jobs. Competition improves performance. In order to begin to compete with the American leviathan and the stronger of the economies of Europe and the Far East, less-developed countries must maximize their human potential. Instead, many willfully halve it.

ashurbanipal said:
4) I think that most people in the west are really viscerally atheists. Most people pay lip service to a religion, or to the idea of a God. Imagine what the response of the average born again Christian would be to being murdered. I imagine that very, very few of them would be happy about it--despite a stated belief that they're going to heaven after they die to exist in eternal bliss. So if they really believe that, they'd maybe not be eager to die, but at least not afraid. So I think it's safe to say that most in the West don't really believe in God.

Our culture is a mix of cultures and diverse religions. There is no mystery why we have so many athiests. Because of our immigrants wishes to be "Americans," they place patriotism at a high level (often if not most, above their religions). Most people in our culture claims that they are "American" before they claim they are a certain subscriber to a religion. Further reason we have far less zealots and radicals willing to murder for "God."

ashurbanipal said:
6) And, implicit in your paragraph is the idea that people who don't face forward should have their resources taken from them. I think that's not correct.

No, I merely mention that as long as the world needs their oil, they must remain civil and stable. Unfortunately, they are unable to do this without our involvement. Correct or not, the world needs the oil. Were it not for the greed of their elite and their fanatic element's wishes to return to their glorious past (which is mostly myth), this would not be such a problem.
 

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ashurbanipal said:
Saying that we look the other way is only a partial description of our actions.
.

Let me try to submit my basic description:

We all are a human kind of living species.
There is a very important observation about humans. Since the Stone Age we had everything a spicy could need for survival, reproduction and domination on the Earth. With the tools of the Stone Age we could comfortably live as species up to today.
And what we have been doing since the Stone Age? Since those times - before we became Americans or Muslims – we have been in pursuit of more than we have at any given moment.
Nothing is enough for us, we want more fur, more jewelry, another horse, bigger house, more coins, bigger SUV, - we compete, we want to dominate, to do better , we don’t stop, we never happy with what we have. In total we are not happier than humans of the ancient world were. We don’t feel more joy buying a SUV, than an ancient Roman felt buying a horse, we don’t love better, we don’t cry better, we don’t celebrate better. Only idealistic minds like yours and SySgt’s can call it a progress, and make it a goal to achieve.
It comes from the common feeling that we know more with each generation. Yes we do, but the proportion between know and unknown has been observed to be the same for all generations. It comes from a common feeling that we are on the way to some peachy, paradise like, form of our existence, when everything is going to be fine. If it is not quite fine for us it would be a lot better for our grandchildren, we think. And idealistic minds are watching from above to be the first ones to shout : land! I see land! They want to speed us up. There is no land over there. It is the same, it was the same, it will be the same, and no other observations have been made. If you say, but what if we….. I can answer: it was already tried and it did not work. But you don’t want to believe your eyes, real observations – just because you don’t like what you see.
So you go with your IDEAS. Sy Sgt talks about conditions which make a suicide bomber. This is his IDEA. Reality is: suicide rate in Egypt = 0.1 per 100000, suicide rate in Belgium = 37.3 per 100, 0000. If it was in Egypt like it is in Belgium and just one out of a 100 committed a suicide by Jihad, you would see 78 bombs going on every day!!!!!!!!!!!!
G-man asks SySgt to point an example of a state where democracy is mixed with extreme religion and SySgt says there no such state – both look at it every day, trip at it every day in the same ME, - but don’t see it because it does not fit their IDEAS, it does not fit SySgt because it is the state looking backwards and passing down traditions and it made the most progress out of all states. So it cannot be even it is. When he is asked about Turkey SySgt says : it’s a little bit to the North. That’s it? I took a glance at Turkey – my man, I bet, it would be very useful for you to research!
On opposite side ashurbanipal has an IDEA to stop us from domination and competition, from getting things we can live happily without, siding himself as an example and at the same time doing the opposite, - doing more than he needs to live happily in his life…. He rules the world through his keyboard relentlessly competing with his opponents for domination. Why does he need this in his life? What is moving him?

Hey guys, what is your attempt, using so many words to disprove observed and recorded laws of human existence, when your actions trip over your own words? What is the basic theory?

Let me introduce my understanding, my theory.

Part 1. You eat then you ****. When you eat you eat calories; then you burn calories; then you **** the rest of calories out. Calories mean energy. In order to do everything you do you have to have energy. It is simple physics applied to everything, including plants and animals. All other species have barely enough energy to burn, they do necessary things, but they don’t overdo. Humans always overdo. You have to have some excessive energy making you to do excessive things. This Excessive Energy (EE) is a sign of a Human, including a Roman, an Egiptian, an American, a Muslim and you are not an exclusion. As all other species do, we need to compete, we need to dominate but we do it in excessive way. Different humans under different situations burn EE in different ways, but in total our actions may be described as: the world is not enough. Even Billo agreed he was not different from anybody – the world is not enough for him.

Part 2. Are we good or bad? Does EE have purpose? I know but I won’t tell you because it is not about Nukes and Iran, and because of some other reasons. At this moment: EE is established. It exists.
Iranians do in order to compete and dominate. We do too.

Part 3. Individual use of EE. Individual contents of EE. EE concentrated on one goal. EE used to suppress EE. All the above are omitted here.
Just a few comments: What a beautiful creature Billo Really bursting with his EE over the keyboard, and I with him, arguing to everyone.. I have a lot what people call achievements in my life, many may be envy, - I myself never felt a bit; ok, it happened, so I feel almost nothing on the next day, again I have to do something else, and I do, I achieve and then I will die. I saw a man who made millions and gave millions for a few days in space, and what? Is he feeling like this is it, he has have enough? He already forgot about it and he is going for the next. OBL has millions of $$$ but the world is not enough for him he wants to take on US – if he can, what a fight! What a fight! And so he goes.

Part 4. American civilization. Freedom to be on everlasting pursuit of happiness. Unleashing the power of Christianity by not imposing it, but putting it in free exercise of competition with other religions and believes. Part 5. Others civilizations. Difference in EE content and vectors. Part 6. Clash of civilizations. Part 7. Which civilizations win, and which civilizations fall.

Part 4. Observation #2: a human is a social animal. Thus, humans always form an Energy Structure (ES) consisting of individual EEs.
The total Energy of the structure is not a total of all individual EEs. The total Energy is a summary of vectors of individual EEs and it also has a vector. It is very basic: vectors and summary vectors. Do I have to illustrate?

To be continued. Maybe. Maybe not.
 

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justone said:
G-man asks SySgt to point an example of a state where democracy is mixed with extreme religion and SySgt says there no such state – both look at it every day, trip at it every day in the same ME, - but don’t see it because it does not fit their IDEAS, it does not fit SySgt because it is the state looking backwards and passing down traditions and it made the most progress out of all states. So it cannot be even it is. When he is asked about Turkey SySgt says : it’s a little bit to the North. That’s it? I took a glance at Turkey – my man, I bet, it would be very useful for you to research!

Unbelievable. Why must I continualy have to explain the world to people? Here..because I am tired of this speed bump, I'll just let Wikipedia do it for me......

As Turkey successfully transformed from the religion-driven former Ottoman Empire into a modern nation-state with a very strong separation of state and religion, the increase in the methods of artistic expression followed. During the first years of the republic, the government invested a large amount of resources into the fine arts, such as paintings, sculptures and architecture amongst other things. This was done as both a process of modernization and of creating a cultural identity. Today the Turkish economy is diverse enough to subsidise individual artists with great freedom.

Unlike other Muslim-majority countries, there is a strong tradition of separation of church and state (in this case mosque and state) in Turkey. Even though the state does not have any/or promote any religion, it actively monitors the area between the religions. The constitutional rule that prohibits discrimination on religious grounds, is taken very seriously. The Turkish constitution recognises freedom of religion for individuals, and the religious communities are placed under the protection of state, but the constitution explicitly states that they cannot become involved in the political process, by forming a religious party for example. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief. However, the religious sensibilities are generally represented through conservative parties.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

So you see people......once and for all, Turkey is not a democracy that is mixed with extreme religion. It is not a part of the Arab and Iranian Middle East that is referred to when debating about Radical Islam. They are indeed "north" of the disease.

Damn:roll:
 
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justone

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GySgt said:
Unbelievable. Why must I continualy have to explain the world to people?

As Turkey
Damn:roll:
I said - Israel
 

MSgt

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justone said:
I said - Israel

Israel being the sole democracy where Arabs and Jews enjoy the same rights was the point when comparing them to Muslim countries in the Middle East that are stagnate through religious dominations.

This is when "Turkey" was used to show different and this is where I said that Turkey is a bit north from the Middle East we are focusing on. Turkey is not the problem. Arabs and Persians are.
 
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