Do militant islamic groups hate the west for what it is or for what it does?

[justone]

Israel being the sole democracy where Arabs and Jews enjoy the same rights was the point when comparing them to Muslim countries in the Middle East that are stagnate through religious dominations.

This is when "Turkey" was used to show different and this is where I said that Turkey is a bit north from the Middle East we are focusing on. Turkey is not the problem. Arabs and Persians are.

Israel was fought for and founded by an extreme religion, looking backwards and passing traditions. The extreme religion is part of Israel life at the same time as the democracy gives arabs the same rights - means mixture.
I do not compare Turkey to Israel or Israel to Muslims in the way you do -- of course I if I compared it would be the different perspective of my theory above. I tryed to show you that I only doubt you thinking about looking backwards and passing down traditions, as well as I doubt some of your conclusions about Middle ages.

Turkey is a different story. I did not have a chance to think about it I just glanced at wikidpedia and found it was a lot more interesting, than to limit it to the words ''it's a little bit North.'' I don't buy wikidpedia before i do my own thinking. So I am sorry I was not reading your reply.. Turkey is not a problem but it's experince is worth of consideration for resolving imminent problems. Thinking about Turkey in perspective of war on terror can take a week or 2 --- and it would not make me a dime I have to make my living first, then enjoy some thinking at leisure time. I would not have to much of lesure time for the next few month -- all scheduled.

 

[MSgt]

Israel was fought for and founded by an extreme religion, looking backwards and passing traditions. The extreme religion is part of Israel life at the same time as the democracy gives arabs the same rights - means mixture.
I do not compare Turkey to Israel or Israel to Muslims in the way you do -- of course I if I compared it would be the different perspective of my theory above. I tryed to show you that I only doubt you thinking about looking backwards and passing down traditions, as well as I doubt some of your conclusions about Middle ages.

You seem to miss the point often or simply go off down a seperate avenue parrallelling the conversation.

Many countries were founded by the driving of a religion. History is not the problem, the Present is. What is Israel today? Their government does not use and has not used Judiasm as a mundane organizational tool for Israel. The people are free to worship as they please and their government reflects it. They are seperate. There isn't one country in the world that has a flourishing democracy where a single religion dominates the government and it's people.

"Passed down traditions" means they are stagnate. The Radical element in the Middle East are refusing to embrace progress, and thus do not face forward, because the "laws of god" won't allow it. Many of the freedoms in the west are "sinfull" to the passed down traditions of Islam and therefore they are embracing the past. Hence..."stagnate."

If Christians in the west believed that animal sacrifice was a necessity, our world would also be adhering to "passed down traditions." Likewise, for the anchient practice of punishing "non-believers" publicly for witchery or heathenism.

In the Middle East, their "passed down traditions" do not work in the 21st century.

Turkey is a different story. I did not have a chance to think about it I just glanced at wikidpedia and found it was a lot more interesting, than to limit it to the words ''it's a little bit North.'' I don't buy wikidpedia before i do my own thinking. So I am sorry I was not reading your reply.. Turkey is not a problem but it's experince is worth of consideration for resolving imminent problems. Thinking about Turkey in perspective of war on terror can take a week or 2 --- and it would not make me a dime I have to make my living first, then enjoy some thinking at leisure time. I would not have to much of lesure time for the next few month -- all scheduled.

Turkey is a role model. The Muslims in that country recognized that religion cannot dominate a government without stagnating it. They recognized this early and have built a democracy upon exactly what I have been typing about. However, Turkey is not full of Arabs and Persians. Over 80 percent of the population are Turks and the largest group of non-Turkic ethnicity are the Kurds.

The Arab and Persian states in the Middle East have not recognized that their religion is the problem with their stagnation. The more oppression their religion creates for them, the deeper they withdraw into that religion for salvation - very ironic. The fanatics of any religion always calls for the punishment of "non-believers." The Arab and Persian religious leadership and elite in this region fear democracy for the power they would lose.

 

[justone]

You seem to miss the point often or simply go off down a seperate avenue parrallelling the conversation.

"Passed down traditions" means they are stagnate. The Radical element in the Middle East are refusing to embrace progress, and thus do not face forward, because the "laws of god" won't allow it. Many of the freedoms in the west are "sinfull" to the passed down traditions of Islam and therefore they are embracing the past. Hence..."stagnate."

If Christians in the west believed that animal sacrifice was a necessity, our world would also be adhering to "passed down traditions." Likewise, for the anchient practice of punishing "non-believers" publicly for witchery or heathenism. .

I just try to look at the roots of the problem.
If I understand you correctly, I am reaching my goal to make you doubt that ‘’passing traditions’’ is always bad. I consider it is a part of human nature and I do not want you to bend your own human nature. It always springs back. So if you take out this expression and change it for "stagnate" I would be reading your posts even with more pleasure, but still may have doubts.

Many of the freedoms in the west are "sinfull" to the passed down traditions of Islam and therefore they are embracing the past. Hence..."stagnate." .

I don’t see what forces you to make the explanation ‘’ therefore they are embracing the past’’ with some kind of blame. I already showed you your progress – embracing the future and Belgium. They certainly want all the toys of the future. It is not quite a stagnate move ---- they are jumping forward.

If to take out ‘’passed down traditions’’ and ‘’embracing the past ‘’ as a doubtful idea you would sound: Many of the freedoms in the west are "sinfull" to Islam . And you would get my signature. They are different; they are bending the human nature which is better of to have the freedom of everlasting pursuit of happiness. Sooner or later it would spring back into their faces.

Entering Christianity you must have even more doubts – it is a very complicated question with a lot of bias of historians. ‘’Ancient practice of persecution for witchery or heathenism ‘’ as you called it may not be a quite correct view.
Again, I took a glance at inquisition and I doubted my own old understanding. Also I found something which reminded me directly about the present war.

In the Middle East, their "passed down traditions" do not work in the 21st century.

At the same time you said a few times that they were winning IO (PR?) war. So, something IS working already. When it takes 2000 people to die and billons of $$ spent in order to kill 19 enemies on 9/11 – something IS working. I am afraid we may underestimate the enemy.

Turkey is a role model. .

But it was not for long. Ask Armenians. So, what happened and how did it happen? What is applicable, because it has similarity in history and follows some general laws --- what is different? 20 millions had to die first? How stable is the role model?

 

[MSgt]

History Channel right now!

Iran and nukes

 

[MSgt]

I just try to look at the roots of the problem.
If I understand you correctly, I am reaching my goal to make you doubt that ‘’passing traditions’’ is always bad. I consider it is a part of human nature and I do not want you to bend your own human nature. It always springs back. So if you take out this expression and change it for "stagnate" I would be reading your posts even with more pleasure, but still may have doubts.

I don't know what you are saying. These are the same words I have always used.

I don’t see what forces you to make the explanation ‘’ therefore they are embracing the past’’ with some kind of blame. I already showed you your progress – embracing the future and Belgium. They certainly want all the toys of the future. It is not quite a stagnate move ---- they are jumping forward.

They want all the destructive toys of the present while desperately clinging to the past. Pretty dangerous.

If to take out ‘’passed down traditions’’ and ‘’embracing the past ‘’ as a doubtful idea you would sound: Many of the freedoms in the west are "sinfull" to Islam . And you would get my signature. They are different; they are bending the human nature which is better of to have the freedom of everlasting pursuit of happiness. Sooner or later it would spring back into their faces.

Entering Christianity you must have even more doubts – it is a very complicated question with a lot of bias of historians. ‘’Ancient practice of persecution for witchery or heathenism ‘’ as you called it may not be a quite correct view.
Again, I took a glance at inquisition and I doubted my own old understanding. Also I found something which reminded me directly about the present war.

Again....I don't know what you are saying. I have no doubts to what I believe.

At the same time you said a few times that they were winning IO (PR?) war. So, something IS working already. When it takes 2000 people to die and billons of $$ spent in order to kill 19 enemies on 9/11 – something IS working. I am afraid we may underestimate the enemy.

:roll: The IO (Information Operations) war is a war of propaganda. The religious leaders of the region already have the loyalty of their people thanks to decades of brainwashing their young as to the scapegoat (The Great Satan). Bin Laden, Khomeini, and plenty of others have managed to convince the populations that hate us that their visions of Islam is of the purest form. This should be a huge warning flag to the west on the crisis within Islam.

By the way, your statement about how much money has been spent to kill 19 enemies shows that you are very confused to what is going on. This problem is far much larger than 19 individuals and one man hiding in the Pakistani/Afghani mountains.

But it was not for long. Ask Armenians. So, what happened and how did it happen? What is applicable, because it has similarity in history and follows some general laws --- what is different? 20 millions had to die first? How stable is the role model?

Again, you are dwelling on history and not focusing on the present. Do you focus on the present "America the free" or do you dwell on how many people died in our Civil War? Nations are built on blood. Twas always thus, and always thus will be.

 

[ashurbanipal]

The total Energy of the structure is not a total of all individual EEs. The total Energy is a summary of vectors of individual EEs and it also has a vector. It is very basic: vectors and summary vectors. Do I have to illustrate?

Are you that timecube guy?

 

[Billo_Really]

They hate us for what we do. You can't get to that level of hatred just on jealousy alone.

 

[akyron]

They hate us for what we do.

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

Tabari VIII:104 “Peace to whoever follows the right guidance! To proceed; Submit yourself, and you shall be safe.’”

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”

Pretty much. Not being a muslim is quite enough for the fundis

Sorry Billo. Appeasers dont get away either though.

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by akyron
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

Tabari VIII:104 “Peace to whoever follows the right guidance! To proceed; Submit yourself, and you shall be safe.’”

Qur’an 47:33 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.”

Pretty much. Not being a muslim is quite enough for the fundis

Sorry Billo. Appeasers dont get away either though.

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

I'm not appeasing anyone. I'm also not as hypocritical and arrogant as a lot of my fellow Americans are. Nor am I as intolerant of other cultures. To me, that is what an American stands for.

Nothing in your quotes justifies the notion that they hate us because they are jealous of our freedom, or our technology, or their religion is failing in these modern times, or __________________.

And for the record, we got our own version of fundis in this country too. The fanatical neocon right could also be considered American Mullahs. And if there is anything we could teach Iraq, it is how we are going to deal with these American Mullahs this fall during the mid-term elections. That's how we settle disputes here. That's the American way. Elected officials that do not do their job get put in the unemployment line. Many on the right will be put there too...........when they get out of jail.

 

[justone]

They want all the destructive toys of the present while desperately clinging to the past. Pretty dangerous.

Agree.

I have no doubts to what I believe.

It is opposite here, I have doubts everyday in everything. So, I don’t have a chance to convert you to my belief in doubts?

This should be a huge warning flag to the west on the crisis within Islam.

Agree. Agree.

By the way, your statement about how much money has been spent to kill 19 enemies shows that you are very confused to what is going on. This problem is far much larger than 19 individuals and one man hiding in the Pakistani/Afghani mountains.

You have not showed yet how am I confused, because I agree the problem is far much LARGE. I was saying: This should be a huge warning flag to the west. Triple agree.

Nations are built on blood. Twas always thus, and always thus will be.

Again, you are dwelling on history and not focusing on the present. :smile: We are dwelling in the same place here. The point is you refer to history quite often; don’t deny me the same right. The point is: analyzing history of Turkey may be helpful in analyzing the present situation. I didn’t check such possibility, you’re denying such possibility of the bet, refusing even to check.
Are you afraid of looking at the blood?

 

[ManOfTrueTruth]

Do your own homework kid.

....and the answer is both.

I think Gunny is correct. We are hated for both reasons, but we were attacked because of what we did to the Islamic World, not because of who we are. They view the West as immoral, like making women into consumer products for example, or charging interest on loans. But we were attacked due to some very unfair violent policies in the Middle East and in the Islamic World in general.

 

[justone]

They want all the destructive toys of the present while desperately clinging to the past.

:roll: The IO (Information Operations) war is a war of propaganda. The religious leaders of the region already have the loyalty of their people thanks to decades of brainwashing their young Bin Laden, Khomeini, and plenty of others have managed to convince the populations that hate us that their visions of Islam is of the purest form. This should be a huge warning flag to the west .

This problem is far much larger than 19 individuals and one man hiding in the Pakistani/Afghani mountains.

Jumping way ahead of my theory above, what I am trying to say, is that I am afraid you are underestimating the enemy. When you are saying: They want all the destructive toys of the present while desperately clinging to the past, I am afraid you have a certain feeling that if they are clinging to the past, they have a certain destiny to loose. I do not see such certainty, and I am pointing to effectiveness of their weapons against our weapon. Our attributes of military power does not impress or scare them. Due to clinging to the past they develop quite effective way to fight us. We are loosing IO war which is a very important part of the war. They are certainly on the attack with their demonstrations in Europe. Europeans govts and people are backing up or standing still and soft. I pointed the numbers of casualties and damage on both sides on 9/11 from the same perspective. Do to their clinging to the past we cannot have reliable intelligence information, at the same time due to our clinging to the future our moves are not only exposed to them but also are often attacked by the free media and people like Billo. Our shine weapons are coming to the point of no use in the type of war IMPOSED BY THEM. It is a very bad situation when you fight a war in the way imposed by your enemy. I am not a pessimist but I am analyzing the information I have. And I see our situation as very dangerous. I see raised flags. Due to my timecube theory, their clinging to a united core makes a summary vector of their civilization larger and better directed than the summary vector of our civilization. Our vector - due to individual vectors acting against each other, and a bigger amount of energy spent to individual needs – does not look surely exceeding their vector of energy. Stepping out of my Timecube, I can use another description: united we stand, divided we fall. It looks simplistic and banal comparing even with constructions of my own theory, but this phrase is all true. Looking backwards in the past or forward in the future I cannot step over this truth.
I hope I am missing that we are also clinging to a core organizing our energy in the summary vector pointing in one direction of the victory. Let it be our freedoms, traditions or whatever. I felt this unification after 9/11, now I am missing it in my view.
Looking around I have came to the conclusion: WARS ARE NOT WON BY ARMIES, BUT BY NATIONS. What can you say?

 

[MSgt]

It is opposite here, I have doubts everyday in everything. So, I don’t have a chance to convert you to my belief in doubts?

You have to remember that I have gone through the doubts that you are going through years and years ago. My activity in Somalia opened up this world to me. I learned then that this civilization would be a part of me for the rest of my career and a part of our nation's conflicts for decades into our future. I study my doubts, until I get a comfortable perception on them. It is what has allowed me to comfortably accept our role during the Cold War.

Again, you are dwelling on history and not focusing on the present. :smile: We are dwelling in the same place here. The point is you refer to history quite often; don’t deny me the same right. The point is: analyzing history of Turkey may be helpful in analyzing the present situation. I didn’t check such possibility, you’re denying such possibility of the bet, refusing even to check.
Are you afraid of looking at the blood?

Oh, I see what you were doing. I'm never afraid to look at the blood. You should know that by now. Remember, I'm the one that accepts it.

 

[MSgt]

I think Gunny is correct. We are hated for both reasons, but we were attacked because of what we did to the Islamic World, not because of who we are. They view the West as immoral, like making women into consumer products for example, or charging interest on loans. But we were attacked due to some very unfair violent policies in the Middle East and in the Islamic World in general.

Ummm no...it is hardly the trite "making women into consumer products" or our "charging interests on loans." It is our unrestrictive organization. It is our willingness to see women as equals and not as properties of men. It is everything that threatens their need to supress and abuse.

And most of their problems in the Middle East were self-inflicted. We are a scapegoat. It is ironic that the terrorist use their religion to slaughter and destroy, while claiming that our policies have ruined their world, when it is actually their restrictive perversion of said religion that has done so.

 

[ManOfTrueTruth]

Ummm no...it is hardly the trite "making women into consumer products" or our "charging interests on loans." It is our unrestrictive organization. It is our willingness to see women as equals and not as properties of men. It is everything that threatens their need to supress and abuse.

And most of their problems in the Middle East were self-inflicted. We are a scapegoat. It is ironic that the terrorist use their religion to slaughter and destroy, while claiming that our policies have ruined their world, when it is actually their restrictive perversion of said religion that has done so.

Sure Gunny, tell us another good joke and try to keep the West from accepting responsibility for the crimes they committed in the Middle East in their pursuit for oil and ideal strategic location in the world.

 

[justone]

Sure Gunny, tell us another good joke and try to keep the West from accepting responsibility for the crimes they committed in the Middle East in their pursuit for oil and ideal strategic location in the world.

It is very interesting.
a crime is any culpable action or omission prohibited by law. This is an uncomplicated view: a crime is a crime because the law defines it as such.

Can you tell me what crimes and against what laws the West commited in the ME? Don't need all of them, but appreciate if you name 3 or 4.

 

[teacher]

I was an American soldier at one time and served in Bosnia. I saw how the US government covered up a genocide of a European Muslim people.

Any questions?

 

[justone]

Any questions?

1. All the same waiting for the answer.

Originally Posted by ManOfTrueTruth
I was an American soldier at one time and served in Bosnia. I saw how the US government covered up a genocide of a European Muslim people.

AND
2. WHO WAS COMMITING THE GENOCIDE??
3. depends on the answer.

 

[cherokee]

Sure Gunny, tell us another good joke and try to keep the West from accepting responsibility for the crimes they committed in the Middle East in their pursuit for oil and ideal strategic location in the world.

I know you can’t read fast so I'll type slowly....

The support of Israel was the start but it was bin laden that kicked it into high gear.

‘See him got really, really mad when daddy allowed US troops on his soil”

But now they will always blame the US and the West for their own damn faults.

Now did you get all of that troll boy?

 

[akyron]

I'm not appeasing anyone.

Perhaps the word is apologist.

Nothing in your quotes ....

They are not my quotes.

And for the record, we got our own version of fundis in this country too.

Absolutely. THE THREAT OF ANIMAL ACTIVISM
Nuts are everywhere. No one is disputing that.

The fanatical neocon right could also be considered American Mullahs.

You cannot possibly be serious.
The next time a politician or his followers straps a bomb to his buttocks and jumps onto a bus load of kids I will take you seriously. Until then you are just another ranting tool lacking a clue.
70 Palestinian bomb attacks aimed at Israelis
Theres problems and then theres real problems.
Blurring the line between real problems and annoyances doesn't help your case whatever it is.

You write very emotionally.
I wont throw daggers at you like some do but writing that way seriously casts some strange colors on your writings and undermines credibility. Unlike many I still think you have a little credibility left.

Truth is a good dog; but always beware of barking too close to the heels of an error, lest you get your brains kicked out.
Francis Bacon

 

[ManOfTrueTruth]

I know you can’t read fast so I'll type slowly....

The support of Israel was the start but it was bin laden that kicked it into high gear.

‘See him got really, really mad when daddy allowed US troops on his soil”

But now they will always blame the US and the West for their own damn faults.

Now did you get all of that troll boy?

Hmm...trolling was not my objective here. I just think the US props up Royal families and dictatorships that serve our oil interests. Doing this is not morally right and it has earned us the wrath and hatred of the people in the Middle East. But a scientist would say that it has to be that way since it is the law of Darwinism. I say, it doesn't have to be that way. I don't mind the US genuinely giving others in the Middle East democratic opportunity but I think we are motivated more by oil rather than trying to advance democracy in the Middle East. Their is a consistent track record of US interventions being based on economic interests rather than advancing democracy or stopping genocides.

 

[teacher]

Hmm...trolling was not my objective here. I just think the US props up Royal families and dictatorships that serve our oil interests. Doing this is not morally right and it has earned us the wrath and hatred of the people in the Middle East. But a scientist would say that it has to be that way since it is the law of Darwinism. I say, it doesn't have to be that way. I don't mind the US genuinely giving others in the Middle East democratic opportunity but I think we are motivated more by oil rather than trying to advance democracy in the Middle East. Their is a consistent track record of US interventions being based on economic interests rather than advancing democracy or stopping genocides.

Hears the deal MOTT. You are exposed. The jig is up. You claim to have been a soldier yet you can't answer simple military questions. You are a fraud. I'm now gonna hound you. Beside your outright attempts to sway some with disinformation, (which also gave you away), your psychological games are very entry level. Take your post here. Very different than some others. You go overboard with the criticism in one post and then try to ingratiate yourself back into good graces with a weak attempt at being conciliatory. Or to put it at your level, trying to give candy to a child after you beat him. You're not that friggin smart sport. I am. Give it up. I got my eye on you.

 

[tecoyah]

But a scientist would say that it has to be that way since it is the law of Darwinism.

WTF scientists are you talking about....I can only assume you meant "Scientologists" , because the obvious failure to understand Darwin, does not point toward a scientific viewpoint. Oh...by the way, I agree with the assesment of your honesty here.

 

[MSgt]

Sure Gunny, tell us another good joke and try to keep the West from accepting responsibility for the crimes they committed in the Middle East in their pursuit for oil and ideal strategic location in the world.

Who said this? This would be an attempt to grey the reality. One cannot fix sole responsibility on America (though many would absolutely love too - Arabs and partisan Americans alike). I have written plenty on our crimes in the Middle East. However, it can only be taken so far. Eventually we are faced with a civilization that is diseased with hatred, bigotry, and blame. Terrorism is their symptom. Their problems are passed down from anchient ancestors. Islam as a restrictive mundane organizing tool is failing in much of the Muslim world and there isn't a thing they can do about it except lash out and fight the natural course of progression and freedom until ultimately they lose.

The Arab and Persian elite are terrified at the prospect of human deceny and freedom. They are terrified of what the free flow of information may offer their people - hence the restriction of it. The failure is greater where the avoidance of responsibility is greater. In the Middle East and Southwest Asia, oil money has masked cultural, social, technical, and structural failure for decades. While the military failure of the regional states has been obvious, consistent, and undeniable, the locals sense--even when they do not fully understand--their noncompetitive status in other spheres as well. It is hateful and disorienting to them. Only the twin blessings of Israel and the United States, upon whom Arabs and Persians can blame even their most egregious ineptitudes, enable a fly-specked pretense of cultural viability.

Maybe you should study this region a little more and discover the societal and religious breakdowns involved, instead of looking where you may fix all blame on my country, of which blame is very minor.

 

[Captain America]

Sarge, you rock.

Semper Fi.