City University locks muslim prayer room

[Infinite Chaos]

City said it acted because students had refused to submit the proposed content of sermons to the university before prayers to check its "appropriateness".Wasif Sheikh, who leads the group, said: "We feel we are being unjustly targeted. All of our sermons are open, we welcome all students and all staff.
"But when you start submitting your sermons to be monitored and scrutinised then there's a chance for it to be dictated what's allowed and what's not allowed. We, as students, don't accept that."

--snip--

In one sermon, which was recorded, the speaker said: "The Islamic state teaches to cut the hand of the thief. Yes it does. And it also teaches us to stone the adulterer.
"When they tell us that, the Islamic state tells us and teaches us to kill the apostate, yes it does."

--snip--

The challenge faced by many universities is how to deal with any potential extremism threat, without being seen to restrict freedom of speech. Link

Personally, I think freedom of speech ends when incitement to harm and hatred are involved but where City University is concerned - is this too late after the horse has bolted? City's reputation in this matter and where dodgy visas have been involved for Chinese and other asian students is involved is not a happy tale.
We had an openly BNP supporter student a while ago but there was never any trouble as long as she did not involve her brand of extremism on campus or use facilities for pushing forward her views onto others. It's never an easy line to draw for academia.

 

[tessaesque]

The quote cited...is that the entirety of the quote? Is there anymore to the quote than that? On its own it certainly sounds damning, but I could quote Leviticus on homosexuality...on its own it'd sound pretty hateful and harsh..but what I say before and after the quote would dictate its context to the discussion.

As to the actual intent of the university....are they screening the context of speeches, talks, conferences, and other group activities prior to allowing them to proceed, or are they isolating and targeting the muslim group?

 

[joko104]

Universities and government entites would prefer they write the text of any sermon and religious statement to assure it is passive, neutral and non-religious.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The quote cited...is that the entirety of the quote? Is there anymore to the quote than that? On its own it certainly sounds damning, but I could quote Leviticus on homosexuality...on its own it'd sound pretty hateful and harsh..but what I say before and after the quote would dictate its context to the discussion.

As to the actual intent of the university....are they screening the context of speeches, talks, conferences, and other group activities prior to allowing them to proceed, or are they isolating and targeting the muslim group?

There is quite a history of trouble at both City and UCL in London. The muslim extremist monitoring group Quilliam have reported after a 3 year study that "there has been quite a vicious and nasty history there. They have to deal with that and give a bit more to the university."

Also, Jewish and other students at both colleges have in the past reported on problems from extremism at these two London universities.

Regarding the University wishes, they have finally stepped up and asked to be given forwarning of the content of speeches / sermons in the prayer room. You could argue that the decision affects moderate muslim students at the university but the reports showed that these moderates started abandoning the prayer room a few years ago.

My concern is that the university is simply pushing the problem elsewhere by asking that the fiery sermons be held at other mosques.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Universities and government entites would prefer they write the text of any sermon and religious statement to assure it is passive, neutral and non-religious.

It goes further than that - they want to avoid the charge that extremist and inciteful speeches and meetings are being held on university grounds. If someone did go off and hurt another after the prayer meeting - the university could face bad publicity if it was found incitement to violence was happening on university grounds.

 

[tessaesque]

There is quite a history of trouble at both City and UCL in London. The muslim extremist monitoring group Quilliam have reported after a 3 year study that "there has been quite a vicious and nasty history there. They have to deal with that and give a bit more to the university."

Also, Jewish and other students at both colleges have in the past reported on problems from extremism at these two London universities.

Regarding the University wishes, they have finally stepped up and asked to be given forwarning of the content of speeches / sermons in the prayer room. You could argue that the decision affects moderate muslim students at the university but the reports showed that these moderates started abandoning the prayer room a few years ago.

My concern is that the university is simply pushing the problem elsewhere by asking that the fiery sermons be held at other mosques.

I'd make it a rule that any group meeting on campus must provide a copy of the agenda for the meeting to the university...and must agree to random audits by university staff. Anybody found to violate additional rules regarding content or intent of on-site meetings can be subject to banishment and/or reporting to local law enforcement.

Seems that way the muslim group couldn't argue discrimination.

 

[PeteEU]

There should be no prayer room for any religion at any university or school... they are not religious schools. If you want to pray... leave the campus and find a place that will allow it.

 

[Rainman05]

Who, the hell, cares?

If the students behave poorly and abuse other students, kick them out of the university. That simple. Don't ban their prayer room or whatever. Screw that. Let them have it. But again ,if they abuse other students, kick them out.

 

[gunner]

Personally, I think freedom of speech ends when incitement to harm and hatred are involved but where City University is concerned - is this too late after the horse has bolted? City's reputation in this matter and where dodgy visas have been involved for Chinese and other asian students is involved is not a happy tale.
We had an openly BNP supporter student a while ago but there was never any trouble as long as she did not involve her brand of extremism on campus or use facilities for pushing forward her views onto others. It's never an easy line to draw for academia.

"City said it acted because students had refused to submit the proposed content of sermons to the university before prayers to check its "appropriateness".

I think the above is a reasonable request, considering as you stated, the history of this particular university. I would probably go further, and have a ruling throughout our 'education' establishments that spot checks and requests, for disclosure of sermon agenda, be the norm. This of course, must apply to all faiths.

Paul

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Who, the hell, cares?

If the students behave poorly and abuse other students, kick them out of the university. That simple. Don't ban their prayer room or whatever. Screw that. Let them have it. But again ,if they abuse other students, kick them out.

It's not about abusing other students but about proselytising and extremism that incites violence. We should and do care which is why City University have been embarrassed into action.

 

[Rainman05]

It's not about abusing other students but about proselytising and extremism that incites violence. We should and do care which is why City University have been embarrassed into action.

... it is a stupid manuveur.

Why?

Ok, you close down their prayer room. The people attending it will just move somewhere else. Will that solve the problem? No, it won't. You will just have a harder time tracking the students, presumably muslims, who attend such rallies. This way, at least, you can popularize it. Spread the world. Students Mohammed and Hassan are regulars at the islamic indoctrination semiars held in room X. Be careful of them. And you give people whom are the target of their hate speech propaganda a chance to avoid running into them. Now... you don't know that.

The university is, like many things in the world, run by stupid people who don't know how to approach a problem from different angles, just the direct approach. This approach is a stupid one. Not only will you give further accreditation to the extremists that they are persecuted and increase their hate, but you will also give them more ammo.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

... it is a stupid manuveur.

Why?

Ok, you close down their prayer room. The people attending it will just move somewhere else. Will that solve the problem? No, it won't. You will just have a harder time tracking the students, presumably muslims, who attend such rallies. This way, at least, you can popularize it. Spread the world. Students Mohammed and Hassan are regulars at the islamic indoctrination semiars held in room X. Be careful of them. And you give people whom are the target of their hate speech propaganda a chance to avoid running into them. Now... you don't know that.

The university is, like many things in the world, run by stupid people who don't know how to approach a problem from different angles, just the direct approach. This approach is a stupid one. Not only will you give further accreditation to the extremists that they are persecuted and increase their hate, but you will also give them more ammo.

Have you actually looked at the background of what's already happened - the antisemitic attacks, homophobia etc on campus at City and UCL University?

 

[Rainman05]

Have you actually looked at the background of what's already happened - the antisemitic attacks, homophobia etc on campus at City and UCL University?

That is why I said, the students who abused other students should be kicked out of the university. They have been expelled from the university means that they won't get a room on campus. That simple.

And campus security is another matter. If outsiders attack students on campus, then you must hire a protection service for the campus.

 

[Medusa]

Who, the hell, cares?

If the students behave poorly and abuse other students, kick them out of the university. That simple. Don't ban their prayer room or whatever. Screw that. Let them have it. But again ,if they abuse other students, kick them out.

students have some rights ,you cant kick them whenever you want ...

but l am against such applications

if a group of people have radical tendencies in a society , such praye rooms are just a tool to spread this virus

 

[spud_meister]

I don't think sermons should be held in prayer rooms. Prayer rooms should be for praying, not preaching.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

That is why I said, the students who abused other students should be kicked out of the university. They have been expelled from the university means that they won't get a room on campus. That simple.

And campus security is another matter. If outsiders attack students on campus, then you must hire a protection service for the campus.

The violence and antisemitism hasn't always happened on campus, it has however been linked to some of the activities by muslim extremists in University meetings.

Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was the sixth muslim member of a UK student Islamic Society to be arrested for suspected terrorism offences. Anyhow, we are monitoring them so the line that we're pushing them into the underground doesn't hold water.

Better to chase them down wherever than let them continue prosletysing others to violence.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

This is the kind of thing that happens when governments try to put "reasonable limits" on free speech. I'm all for punishing speech that causes direct, serious harm, but telling people that they must have their speech approved before it is said smacks of authoritarianism and violation against their religious liberty. Even if they were spreading hate, it is far easier to monitor and counter their speech if you know where it is. In clamping down on them, the university has only increased their legitimacy, for better or for worse.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

There should be no prayer room for any religion at any university or school... they are not religious schools. If you want to pray... leave the campus and find a place that will allow it.

What about private institutions?

Almost all colleges, even public schools try to provide a holistic experience to their students. Many provide free events, club funding, and other activities for students. The goal of the university is generally to support students who want develop themselves personally or professionally in different ways, in and outside of the classroom. For some, their outlet is religion. For others it is secular. If you want to argue against this approach, ok, but you shouldn't limit your criticism to religious activities.

 

[PeteEU]

What about private institutions?

Almost all colleges, even public schools try to provide a holistic experience to their students. Many provide free events, club funding, and other activities for students. The goal of the university is generally to support students who want develop themselves personally or professionally in different ways, in and outside of the classroom. For some, their outlet is religion. For others it is secular. If you want to argue against this approach, ok, but you shouldn't limit your criticism to religious activities.

No. Religion has no place at private or public schools. Basic teachings yes (on all religions) so that students can make up their own minds when and if they want to but everything else is up to the student and his/her family and not on school property.

My reasons are simple... it costs money. Let the religions pay for that **** and not the taxpayer. If the religion wants to start a so called school.. then fine, but they pay for it and the institution can not be called a school/university/college.

Why should it not be called a school/university/college? Simple, because the crap they teach is religion based and is more than often a load of horse**** and brainwashing. Look at the madrases and similar christian schools in the US.... the pupils are more than often not qualified to do jack**** in society because they have been taught basically the wrong things.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

No. Religion has no place at private or public schools.

Why private schools?

Basic teachings yes (on all religions) so that students can make up their own minds when and if they want to but everything else is up to the student and his/her family and not on school property.

My reasons are simple... it costs money. Let the religions pay for that **** and not the taxpayer. If the religion wants to start a so called school.. then fine, but they pay for it and the institution can not be called a school/university/college.

OK, so should universities provide funding for clubs, student events, fraternities and sororities, or other activities of a secular nature? College is meant to be a growing experience. Sometimes, people use religion to develop themselves professionally or socially. It's no different from any other club.

Why should it not be called a school/university/college? Simple, because the crap they teach is religion based and is more than often a load of horse**** and brainwashing. Look at the madrases and similar christian schools in the US.... the pupils are more than often not qualified to do jack**** in society because they have been taught basically the wrong things.

Religious people can't be educated? If that were even remotely true the US, the country with the largest percentage of religious people among developed countries, wouldn't be a world leader in scientific output. These prayer sessions and religious clubs need not take over the lives of their students any more than any secular extracurricular activities.

 

[Higgins86]

This is the kind of thing that happens when governments try to put "reasonable limits" on free speech. I'm all for punishing speech that causes direct, serious harm, but telling people that they must have their speech approved before it is said smacks of authoritarianism and violation against their religious liberty. Even if they were spreading hate, it is far easier to monitor and counter their speech if you know where it is. In clamping down on them, the university has only increased their legitimacy, for better or for worse.

But its very easy for Americans to say that because other than the brave guys that fought in WW2 the US went pretty much untouched and even enjoyed an economic boom. Europe however was ravaged by a War which was allowed to happen because we allowed a madman complete free speech. You shouldnt underestimate the scars that WW2 left on European Politics and how much room we now give extremist groups to maneuver. In short you have never really had your free speech tested like other nations have.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

But its very easy for Americans to say that because other than the brave guys that fought in WW2 the US went pretty much untouched and even enjoyed an economic boom. Europe however was ravaged by a War which was allowed to happen because we allowed a madman complete free speech. You shouldnt underestimate the scars that WW2 left on European Politics and how much room we now give extremist groups to maneuver. In short you have never really had your free speech tested like other nations have.

If speech laws are good for keeping bigots out of office, then how did Geert Wilders become the Netherland's deputy prime minister after almost being convicted for hate speech? Even today, the NDP is a force, albeit a minor one, in German politics. Hate speech laws do not work. You cannot expunge hate from the national consciousness by declaring its expression illegal. That doesn't do anything. If anything, the legal reaction against these ideas makes them stronger and gives them more legitimacy by making those who express them victims of the state. The vast majority of these people wouldn't even have a platform if it weren't for the controversy over their arrest.

One example here in the US was with Chick-fil-a, a fast food restaurant that donates some of their profits to various anti-gay groups. Some politicians around the country threatened to withhold building permits due to these donations. These statements were, of course, nothing more than politicians blustering on. Denying permits or government services to an organization for their political or religious beliefs is unconstitutional, but the mere threat of censorship gave Chick-fil-a legitimacy that it didn't have. They had a "free speech day" and they gained a ton of publicity. The whole thing seriously damaged a private campaign to boycott Chick-fil-a and get them to change their practices. Censorship, especially done in the context of a liberal society, has a huge potential to backfire.

The strength of ideas comes from their ability to convince more people than bad ideas. As Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis pointed out, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." You don't get rid of hate by sweeping it under rug. You get rid of it by allowing it into the open and destroying it with better ideas. This isn't always successful, but it has a much better record than censorship.

 

[alexa]

The situation does not look as clear cut as in the OP. From the OP link

BBC London has seen no evidence those views are still being spread now, but some argue the episode shows the need for greater scrutiny.
'Vicious history'

Dr Usama Hasan from the Quilliam Foundation said: "If there was no past history at the university, I think what the students are saying would sound extremely reasonable.

"However, there has been quite a vicious and nasty history there. They have to deal with that and give a bit more to the university.

"Both sides need to compromise here and negotiate with some difficult conversations."

BBC News - City University London locks Muslim prayer room on Fridays

It certainly is a situation which needs balance and as tutors are allowed to come and listen to the sermons, I don't see why they cannot just check up that they are all right by visiting every now and then as it sounds like there are currently no perceived problems.

I know when the 'prevent' strategy was going, Muslims said it made it very difficult to talk about anything. They could not even talk about Jihad to try and get students a proper non radical view of it because even mentioning it was enough to get them censored for being radical. I think that is a very important point. If you do not allow people to discuss controversial issues you actually leave them more open to being prone to the abusers as they haven't learned how to spot them.

Anyway seems a shame if they are being treated as potential radicals because of the action of a few in the past. Going to University for most folks means at last being adults, being able to speak your mind and most of all free speech. I am sure something else could be found which did not patronize them so much - like I said just a member of staff or another student visiting from time to time or telling students that if they hear things which are cause for concern they can contact x person in confidence, similar to bullying procedure.

 

[PeteEU]

Why private schools?

Private schools have to follow a minimum standard of education and will receive some sort of money from the State (tax breaks, scolarships), so nothing is really "private" in private schools.

OK, so should universities provide funding for clubs, student events, fraternities and sororities, or other activities of a secular nature? College is meant to be a growing experience. Sometimes, people use religion to develop themselves professionally or socially. It's no different from any other club.

No they should not, unless it is related to education. Oh and fraternities and sororities is very American .

Religious people can't be educated?

On paper yes.. in reality not when they prioritize religious dogma over science and logic.

If that were even remotely true the US, the country with the largest percentage of religious people among developed countries, wouldn't be a world leader in scientific output.

You are the world leader because you pay for it. Most of those people who do the actual output are not even from the US, and most of them are not religious.

These prayer sessions and religious clubs need not take over the lives of their students any more than any secular extracurricular activities.

That is the problem.. they often do.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

Private schools have to follow a minimum standard of education and will receive some sort of money from the State (tax breaks, scolarships), so nothing is really "private" in private schools.

Every institution receives money from the government, at least indirectly. There is still a secular benefit to allowing students to form extracurricular groups of their choosing.

No they should not, unless it is related to education. Oh and fraternities and sororities is very American .

Clubs and extracurricular activities provide a huge benefit to students, who use them to network and build other skills. The resources that these clubs actually take from the school is typically quite minimal. I'm not sure what school funding went into this prayer room, but I would surprised if it involved anything more than picking an unused room in the student union, putting in a lectern and calling it the prayer room.

On paper yes.. in reality not when they prioritize religious dogma over science and logic.

Who said anything about prioritizing? It's a social club, not a cult.

You are the world leader because you pay for it. Most of those people who do the actual output are not even from the US, and most of them are not religious.

Our workers are among the most productive in the world. Half of all PhDs are born here. This says nothing of Americans who receive master's and bachelor's degrees. If religion is as debilitating as you say it is, America would not be in the spot that it is today.

That is the problem.. they often do.

How many religious people do you actually know, Pete? Your blind hatred of religion is showing. I know quite a few, and there is remarkably little distinguishing them from the atheist and agnostic people I know. I currently attend a Methodist university. Most students are not especially religious, but there are a number of faith-based groups. They aren't cults. They don't subjugate their followers. They hold some services, host a couple of events, and do weekly prayer meetings. They're no different from or more obtrusive than any other club. To say that being religious prevents one from critical thinking, obtaining a good education, or being a productive member of society is laughable and extremely arrogant.