British cancelled African dreams, literally

[Rogue Valley]

What would it be like if there had been no European empires?

Less dead Europeans. Less dead Americans. Perhaps less dead Africans.

 

[ecofarm]

i dont think that Kenya is a good example of a successful African country

Kenya is the most advanced country in Africa. Egypt is a shithole. South Africa is divided. Kenya has the most progressive constitution in the world and has two decades of peaceful multi-party democracy. It's the darling of the development world. It has very close ties with the US and US military. It's easily the best country in Africa.

Kenya's power supply is almost entirely renewable. It is energy independent. That's more than the US can say.

 

[Litwin]

Kenya is the most advanced country in Africa. Egypt is a shithole. South Africa is divided. Kenya has the most progressive constitution in the world and has two decades of peaceful multi-party democracy. It's the darling of the development world. It has very close ties with the US and US military. It's easily the best country in Africa.

Kenya's power supply is almost entirely renewable. It is energy independent. That's more than the US can say.

whats about 2 my examples ?

 

[ecofarm]

whats about 2 my examples ?

I don't generally click. Make your case in a few sentences.

 

[Litwin]

I don't generally click. Make your case in a few sentences.

Botswana
Rwanda ( I know a lot democracy - questions, but still )

 

[ecofarm]

Botswana
Rwanda ( I know a lot democracy - questions, but still )

You'll have to forgive my ignorance there. If I were to offer contenders, they would be (west coast) Ghana and Cameroon, and (east coast) Tanzania and Ethiopia. I have heard good things about Botswana in the recent past but I've no idea regarding modern Rwanda.

I provided specific metrics by which Kenya was deemed the most advanced, most developed, "best". Those were social (constitution and multi-party democracy) and industrial (renewable energy and independence).

If you could offer similar development metrics (education for women, healthcare accessibility) then we could compare the countries but I'm confident Kenya will come out on top regarding those as well.

 

[Juin]

You'll have to forgive my ignorance there. If I were to offer contenders, they would be (west coast) Ghana and Cameroon, and (east coast) Tanzania and Ethiopia. I have heard good things about Botswana in the recent past but I've no idea regarding modern Rwanda.

I provided specific metrics by which Kenya was deemed the most advanced, most developed, "best". Those were social (constitution and multi-party democracy) and industrial (renewable energy and independence).

If you could offer similar development metrics (education for women, healthcare accessibility) then we could compare the countries but I'm confident Kenya will come out on top regarding those as well.

Strike Cameroon off that list.

 

[ecofarm]

Strike Cameroon off that list.

I kinda had that in the back of my head. What did I forget.

 

[Litwin]

You'll have to forgive my ignorance there. If I were to offer contenders, they would be (west coast) Ghana and Cameroon, and (east coast) Tanzania and Ethiopia. I have heard good things about Botswana in the recent past but I've no idea regarding modern Rwanda.

I provided specific metrics by which Kenya was deemed the most advanced, most developed, "best". Those were social (constitution and multi-party democracy) and industrial (renewable energy and independence).

If you could offer similar development metrics (education for women, healthcare accessibility) then we could compare the countries but I'm confident Kenya will come out on top regarding those as well.

Rwanda is African Singapore, clean safe nice but luck of democracy (so no chance in the long Run)

Botswana is way weather than Kenya, its smaller kind of Finland of Africa

Namibia is doing well

Kope Verde is mix between Brazil and Portugal, and not really Africa, a very popular destitution for rich Afro - Americans . KV will be very very rich soon

I see you point with Kenya , Kenya is good example as well. but what do you think about religious and ethic tensions in Kenya ?

 

[ecofarm]

I see you point with Kenya , Kenya is good example as well. but what do you think about religious and ethic tensions in Kenya ?

Kenya is very aware of the dangers of tribalism. It was a hot topic all the time when I was last there (2010-2012). I suppose there are three major divides:

The Kikuyu (ethnic power majority) and everyone else. While it is said that Kikuyu are everywhere, there is no real animosity towards them.

The agriculturalists (including Kikuyu) and nomads (largest group being the Maasai). Agriculturalists have long held the vast majority of power and have marginalized nomads regarding land and subsidy.

The Christians and Muslims. This is, surprisingly, better than in America. They've lived with each other, both having significant power, since the 1600s or even before. Europe and the Middle East have had significant contact with Kenya since ships sailed the oceans.

Swahili, a regional language, is a combination of Arabic, English, Portuguese and native languages. Kenya was a melting pot before the US existed.

Kenya has long grasped the perils of tribalism and is as well positioned as any country, developed or developing, to meet those challenges.

Kenyan Muslims shield Christians in Mandera bus attack

A group of Kenyan Muslims on a bus attacked by Islamist gunmen protected Christian passengers by refusing to be split into groups, witnesses say.

www.bbc.com

 

[Litwin]

Swahili

i thought its a " Bantu language") by the way, why Swahili is so popular in sub - Sahara Africa ?

 

[ecofarm]

i thought its a " Bantu language") by the way, why Swahili is so popular in sub - Sahara Africa ?

It's popular because it's a regional language. When the Portuguese and Arabs arrived in the 1500s (1600s?), their language was mixed with mother tongues (12 major groups each with their own language). Some of those mother tongues are presumably Bantu but I dunno which tribes (maybe all) trace to such.

It's popular because it's a language of trade. People from different tribes and even countries can speak to each other. It's kinda like if in Europe, instead of English dominating international business and recreation, they created a mix that everyone used.

In eastern Africa, a mix of languages was created instead of one language dominating. The result is Swahili. It's not a language owned by any one tribe or country. It's a language owned by a region and created from at least three continents.

 

[Rich2018]

In 1963, Kenya kicked Brit's ass and won their independence in battle. Kenyans, being a classy people, don't hold this against the Brits and today everyone gets along swimmingly.

Are you saying the Mau-Mau rebellion defeated the British colonial forces in Kenya ?

 

[Tigerace117]

Are you saying the Mau-Mau rebellion defeated the British colonial forces in Kenya ?

The rebellion effectively destroyed the British ability to hold onto the colony long term.

 

[VanceMack]

FFS.

The world was a different place in the 1800s. Yes...Europeans were bad. So were Asians. So were Africans.

You know who are real assholes? Sharks.

 

[VanceMack]

Less dead Europeans. Less dead Americans. Perhaps less dead Africans.

Because Africans never killed anyone en masse. Arabs never set out to conquer the world. No Asian leaders ever sent forth conquering armies.

 

[Yes_Minister]

The vast majority were killed by disease native to the continent not murdered. Not something their witch doctors could have saved them from either.

No they weren't, we are talking about Belgium owned Congo, King Leopold was a mass murderer:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/may/13/features11.g22

 

[RobertU]

Because Africans never killed anyone en masse. Arabs never set out to conquer the world. No Asian leaders ever sent forth conquering armies.

So, you never heard of Genghis Khan?

 

[VanceMack]

So, you never heard of Genghis Khan?

I kinda think that was the point I was making....

 

[Ginza]

Much of the continent, pre-colonial era, consisted of stone age tribes warring among themselves, often in a very brutal manner.

What would it be like if there had been no European empires? If Africa had been left strictly alone? I don't know. Would it still be warring stone age tribes? Perhaps, who can say. At least some of the continent now has modern medicine, technology, and a grasp of the notion of democracy. If Africa had been left alone, that might not have been the case.

I'm not saying "colonialism good" btw... I'm saying it resulted in some mixed outcomes, some good, some bad.

A very sensible opinion.

In my experience of living in Africa for decades, the benefits of colonialism greatly outweigh the negatives.

 

[Tigerace117]

A very sensible opinion.

In my experience of living in Africa for decades, the benefits of colonialism greatly outweigh the negatives.

Gee, perhaps for the colonists.

For the locals?

Not even close.

 

[OrphanSlug]

These conversations, largely based on what ifs, tend to miss the point anyway.

Even before colonization, even before the various empires from history largely from what we call Europe today or the far east, very little of Africa was headed for some sort of utopian dream.

Very similar to North and South American native cultures before colonization most of Africa was loosely organized into tribal, territorial, and waring cultures. Not about right or wrong, good or bad, but just the reality of how some cultures advanced over history against others. Eventually collisions occurred. And it is easy to argue that various outside influences, empire expansions to awkward trade from vary early globalization efforts to various colonization efforts to even religious influences, made matters worse. No denying that, but it is narrowminded to say "the British cancelled African dreams" ignoring every other factor that occurred on that continent going back a very long way.

None of this conversation, or my statements, change anything.

We are now here, and our options are growing more limited the further we go for anyone to have a dream realized (in the history sense.)

 

[Litwin]

A very sensible opinion.

In my experience of living in Africa for decades, the benefits of colonialism greatly outweigh the negatives.

in the same time, Moscow oriental colonialism brings only negatives (pure hell) without any benefits

 

[bomberfox]

That was bad, sure. It wasn't Utopia before, either, and wouldn't be utopian today even if the continent had been left alone.

It might not be utopia but it didnt need to be. The oldest civilization on earth doesnt need to be utopia, just livable to the satisfaction of the people that live there. The bushmen are still hunters and gatherers yet still manage to survive off the land well.

 

[bomberfox]

People tend to think of civilization like Sid Meyer’s game. Its a wonderful game but its not how things develop in reality. Like evolution, civilizations can be considered successful if they survive well in their environment that the people have adapted to.