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British cancelled African dreams, literally

RobertU

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When the British colonized Africa in about 1870, they not only carted off resources such as gold, ivory, and salt, they also took away the dreams of tribal leaders. No, I don’t mean hopes and aspirations; I mean the dreams you have at night.

In the book Man and His Symbols (1964), page 37, psychoanalyst Carl Jung reported his experience with a tribe in east Africa. The tribesmen felt that the dreams of ordinary men meant nothing. “They thought that the only dreams that mattered were those of chiefs and medicine men; these, which concerned the welfare of the tribe, were highly appreciated.”

Alas, the chief and medicine man claimed they had ceased having meaningful dreams after the arrival of the British. “The district commissioner—the British official in charge of them—had taken over the functions of the ‘great dreams’ that had hitherto guided the tribe’s behavior.”
 

ecofarm

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In 1963, Kenya kicked Brit's ass and won their independence in battle. Kenyans, being a classy people, don't hold this against the Brits and today everyone gets along swimmingly.
 

Goshin

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Africa was, and is, a hot mess. It was a hot mess when the Brits got there, it was a hot mess when they left, it remains a hot mess.

In general.
 

TurtleDude

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In 1963, Kenya kicked Brit's ass and won their independence in battle. Kenyans, being a classy people, don't hold this against the Brits and today everyone gets along swimmingly.
Not really but British colonialism was waning and it was inevitable. The Mau Mau were pretty much thrashed
 

ecofarm

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Not really but British colonialism was waning and it was inevitable. The Mau Mau were pretty much thrashed

Did someone's feewings get hurt? The Brits got stomped.
 

ecofarm

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lol

Whitey.
 

TurtleDude

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lol

Whitey.
Are you admitting that the Kenyans didn't militarily defeat Britain? I can read the history as well as you can-and I actually studied it.
 

ecofarm

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Are you admitting that the Kenyans didn't militarily defeat Britain? I can read the history as well as you can-and I actually studied it.

Claiming to know some hunter guy who claimed to have murdered a lot of Kenyans is not studying history.
 

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Claiming to know some hunter guy who claimed to murder a lot of Kenyans is not studying history.
why are you diverting away from your false claim that Kenya kicked the British ass? You know that didn't happen. The mau mau uprising was crushed.
 

ecofarm

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why are you diverting away from your false claim that Kenya kicked the British ass? You know that didn't happen. The mau mau uprising was crushed.

So it wasn't murder, huh? Your buddy was just a good Brit officer, huh?
 

TurtleDude

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So it wasn't murder, huh? Your buddy was just a good Brit officer, huh?
After the Lari massacre, the gloves came off. It's too bad that Kikuyu rule resulted in the majority of Kenyans getting crapped all over

Enough of this nonsense though. we don't need to indulge white guilt on this thread. @Goshin is correct about Africa-and true, much of that mess comes from colonial underdevelopment of Africa and ignoring ethnic boundaries when creating colonial-convenient nation states
 

ecofarm

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After the Lari massacre, the gloves came off. It's too bad that Kikuyu rule resulted in the majority of Kenyans getting crapped all over

Enough of this nonsense though. we don't need to indulge white guilt on this thread. @Goshin is correct about Africa-and true, much of that mess comes from colonial underdevelopment of Africa and ignoring ethnic boundaries when creating colonial-convenient nation states

I spent time with the Mau Mau, on their land, and they got a different story about your Brit buddy. They say he's not a hero.
 

NatMorton

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When the British colonized Africa in about 1870, they not only carted off resources such as gold, ivory, and salt, they also took away the dreams of tribal leaders. No, I don’t mean hopes and aspirations; I mean the dreams you have at night.

In the book Man and His Symbols (1964), page 37, psychoanalyst Carl Jung reported his experience with a tribe in east Africa. The tribesmen felt that the dreams of ordinary men meant nothing. “They thought that the only dreams that mattered were those of chiefs and medicine men; these, which concerned the welfare of the tribe, were highly appreciated.”

Alas, the chief and medicine man claimed they had ceased having meaningful dreams after the arrival of the British. “The district commissioner—the British official in charge of them—had taken over the functions of the ‘great dreams’ that had hitherto guided the tribe’s behavior.”
Can we all move on if we shed a tear first?
 

RobertU

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If, as some believe, dreams originate in the spiritual realm and not from our own minds, then the spirits were essentially telling the tribesmen, “We aren’t giving you guidance anymore. Listen to your British masters.”
 

Tigerace117

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After the Lari massacre, the gloves came off. It's too bad that Kikuyu rule resulted in the majority of Kenyans getting crapped all over

Enough of this nonsense though. we don't need to indulge white guilt on this thread. @Goshin is correct about Africa-and true, much of that mess comes from colonial underdevelopment of Africa and ignoring ethnic boundaries when creating colonial-convenient nation states

Acknowledging the massive number of atrocities Europeans committed across the continent has nothing to do with “white guilt”......it’s facing reality.
 

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Acknowledging the massive number of atrocities Europeans committed across the continent has nothing to do with “white guilt”......it’s facing reality.
please pay attention to the issue I am debating with Eco-he suggested that Kenya kicked the British out of Kenya-which was not true. No one denies that the Europeans visited all sorts of nastiness on a continent that already had its shares of troubles
 

Tigerace117

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Africa was, and is, a hot mess. It was a hot mess when the Brits got there, it was a hot mess when they left, it remains a hot mess.

In general.

Amazing what happens when a bunch of foreigners occupy your country, actively destabilize it for decades or even centuries while effectively looting anything of value and leaving the locals second class citizens at BEST.
 

Tigerace117

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please pay attention to the issue I am debating with Eco-he suggested that Kenya kicked the British out of Kenya-which was not true. No one denies that the Europeans visited all sorts of nastiness on a continent that already had its shares of troubles

Oh, they were kicked out. It was just diplomatically instead of at bayonet point.
 

Goshin

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Amazing what happens when a bunch of foreigners occupy your country, actively destabilize it for decades or even centuries while effectively looting anything of value and leaving the locals second class citizens at BEST.


That was bad, sure. It wasn't Utopia before, either, and wouldn't be utopian today even if the continent had been left alone.
 

TurtleDude

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I spent time with the Mau Mau, on their land, and they got a different story about your Brit buddy. They say he's not a hero.
Brits hated Washington and Francis Marion too. BFD. Did your buddies like the chaps who chopped up dozens of their fellow kikuyu with machetes? or raped and then drowned in a latrine the sister of the Sgt-Major who was my late "Brit Buddy's gun bearer? BTW he and "my buddy" got even. The creeped upon the Mau Mau who did that-cut then throat of every other Mau Mau and then established a position above the camp on a hill. Watched the shock when the surviving Mau Mau figured out what happened. It lasted 10 minutes then the Hurricanes came in and napalmed the camp. Serious payback
 

TurtleDude

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Oh, they were kicked out. It was just diplomatically instead of at bayonet point.
They were giving up colonies around the world. So you agree with me that Eco's assessment was bullshit.
 

Tigerace117

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That was bad, sure. It wasn't Utopia before, either, and wouldn't be utopian today even if the continent had been left alone.

A substantial number of the wars and insurgencies currently ongoing in Africa today have their roots directly tied to colonialism. Ignoring that is foolish.

Something can be “not utopia” and still a hell of a lot better than it was after decades of colonialism.
 

Tigerace117

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They were giving up colonies around the world. So you agree with me that Eco's assessment was bullshit.

It was semi accurate. Not in the traditional sense, but the cost the British incurred meant there was zero chance of them clinging on in Kenya, and they were forced to scrap a lot of their worst policies in order to gain any semblance of support from the locals.
 

TurtleDude

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It was semi accurate. Not in the traditional sense, but the cost the British incurred meant there was zero chance of them clinging on in Kenya, and they were forced to scrap a lot of their worst policies in order to gain any semblance of support from the locals.
Cost was the main reason why colonies were freed. few were able to actually win freedom militarily. Vietnam being one of the major exceptions
 
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