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Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:169]

Re: Zimmerman charged

No defendent should have to prove that they are innocent.

That's not the case here. He's not having to prove his innocence. When you declare innocence you are declaring that you didn't do something. He did in fact shoot and kill someone. So he admittedly did something that he is not declaring innocence of. From that point on, he has to prove that he what he already admitted that he did, he did so in self defense.
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

That's not the case here. He's not having to prove his innocence. When you declare innocence you are declaring that you didn't do something. He did in fact shoot and kill someone. From that point on, he has to prove that he did so in self defense.
And again; It doesn't actually have to be proven at all.
 
Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

If Martin didn't attack Zimmerman how is it that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and 2 gashes on the back of his head? Which the proof of that is in the enhanced video's of Zimmerman at the police station.

Can you provide a link to the video that shows a bloody nose? I haven't seen it. Also, have you had a bloody nose? Blood goes everywhere unless you stop the bleeding right away. The video I saw showed no blood on his shirt or jacket, front or back. Seems kinda odd to me...
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

That's not the case here. He's not having to prove his innocence. When you declare innocence you are declaring that you didn't do something. He did in fact shoot and kill someone. From that point on, he has to prove that he did so in self defense.

No, when you declare innocence you are declaring that you didn't do something "wrong". If we followed what you just said then every single defendent would have to prove their innocence just because they pleaded "not guilty". That is not how our system works.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Disagree.

Everybody is saying that it is an affirmative defense and he has to do this or that.
bs
He doesn't [highlight]have[/highlight] to do anything.
The defense can simply argue to the jury that the prosecution did not prove all the elements of the crime charged.
Because, no matter what, the prosecution still has that obligation.
Would that be a wise move? Hell no! I only state it to show that the defense doesn't have to do jack.

I will let the following explain it better.


UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES

Code:
[SIZE=1][B]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/B]

David Beneman
Maine CJA Resource Counsel
Levenson, Vickerson & Beneman
P.O. Box 465
Portland, ME 04112
...

[B]I. Legal Groundwork For Affirmative Defenses

A. What is an Affirmative Defense?[/B]

An affirmative defense is one which provides a defense without negating an essential
element of the crime charge. To establish an affirmative defense the defendant [highlight]must place
before the jury sufficient proof[/highlight] to generate a jury instruction on the particular defense theory
sought. Normally, an affirmative defense is expressly designated as affirmative by statute,
or is a defense involving an excuse or justification peculiarly within the knowledge of the
accused.

[B]B.  How is an Affirmative Defense different from a “Regular” Defense?[/B]

An affirmative defense is one which requires the actual production of evidence, be
it testimonial or physical. [highlight]The evidence can be adduced through cross examination of
Government witnesses[/highlight] or produced after the close of the Government’s case in chief.
Affirmative defenses do not directly attack an element of the crime but provide either
justification for the conduct or some other legally recognized approach to undermining the
charge. A defendant must generate an affirmative defense instruction.


[B]C. Types of Defenses[/B]

There are two categories of defense.
1. I did not do it defenses, and
2. I did it but defenses.
Affirmative defenses are available in both categories.


[...]

[INDENT][B]ii. I Did It But[/B]
Many more affirmative defenses fall into the “I did it but” category. Insanity,
entrapment, self defense, necessity, duress, are many of the statutory affirmative
defenses. In these situations, there is a major strategic aspect to deciding on the
defense. Assertion of the specific affirmative defense essentially concedes that the
defendant was involved in the conduct alleged. While the government must still
prove each element assertion of many affirmative defenses tells the jury the
government is in fact correct as too much of the charge, BUT, there is a fact or facts
which serve to exonerate the conduct. Self defense is an affirmative defense to
assault, but by asserting self defense the defendant admits to the assault then gives
a legal reason why guilt does not attach to the conduct. If the jury rejects the self
defense argument, they are supposed to still find proof BRD of all the elements.
Once you have put on your self defense claim, do you think a jury will spend much
time on deciding if assaultive conduct actually occurred? I don’t think so. In an I
did it but case, the defense is generally hanging the whole case on the jury accepting
the affirmative defense presented. Sure there are exceptions to every rule but
realistically how may jurors will accept arguments in the alternative. I did not assault
her, but if I did it was in self defense. I don’t think that works with a jury. Maybe
in a bench trial but even federal judges are human. In deciding to present an I did it
but affirmative defense review these issues with the client. I suggest you have a letter
explaining the issues to them.[/INDENT]

[B]Google Doc[/B]
[url]https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:06-_HilumfEJ:www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf+affirmative+defense&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjQQ9DDIG6I9rtWnkdrvG4XMpf-h2KGVxjIf2cgCnXgnZ6rKrFrnVZwDO3Pw-YkvR4VQt6w8d4k7Jd6u3XiNVni3HwMVJaz2xJgZswMP-HkNfqJhwe5jZwla03YrbDJEf3LwZ9D&sig=AHIEtbQjGQcnos5_jKrclWonXfetxH8Zuw[/url]

[B]Straight Pdf[/B]
[url=www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/url][/SIZE]


More on Affirmative Defense
Specifically as it relates to Florida

An “affirmative defense” is any defense that assumes the complaint or charges to be correct but raises other facts that, if true, would establish a valid excuse or justification or a right to engage in the conduct in question. An affirmative defense does not concern itself with the elements of the offense at all; it concedes them. In effect, an affirmative defense says, “Yes, I did it, but I had a good reason.” State v. Cohen, 568 So.2d 49, 51-52 (Fla. 1990). Stated differently, an affirmative defense is any matter that avoids the action and that, under applicable law, the plaintiff is not bound to prove initially but the defendant must affirmatively establish. Langford v. McCormick, 552 So.2d 964, 967 (Fla. 1st DCA 1989).
Affirmative Defense - Florida Legal Wiki
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

Is that actually what needs to be proven at trial?
I thought that was just to make an arrest.
I thought at trial that self-defense is an affirmative defense where the defendant has to show that he was acting in self-defense.

The burden of proof always lies with the prosecution. Zimmerman has claimed self defense. He does not have to prove it. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act with self defense. Zimmerman's defense only has to make 1 out of 12 people believe that he might have acted in self defense. The prosecution has to prove to all 12 that there is no way that he acted in self defense.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

I will let the following explain it better.


UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES

Code:
[SIZE=1][B]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/B]

David Beneman
Maine CJA Resource Counsel
Levenson, Vickerson & Beneman
P.O. Box 465
Portland, ME 04112
...

[B]I. Legal Groundwork For Affirmative Defenses

A. What is an Affirmative Defense?[/B]

An affirmative defense is one which provides a defense without negating an essential
element of the crime charge. To establish an affirmative defense the defendant [highlight]must place
before the jury sufficient proof[/highlight] to generate a jury instruction on the particular defense theory
sought. Normally, an affirmative defense is expressly designated as affirmative by statute,
or is a defense involving an excuse or justification peculiarly within the knowledge of the
accused.

[B]B.  How is an Affirmative Defense different from a “Regular” Defense?[/B]

An affirmative defense is one which requires the actual production of evidence, be
it testimonial or physical. [highlight]The evidence can be adduced through cross examination of
Government witnesses[/highlight] or produced after the close of the Government’s case in chief.
Affirmative defenses do not directly attack an element of the crime but provide either
justification for the conduct or some other legally recognized approach to undermining the
charge. A defendant must generate an affirmative defense instruction.


[B]C. Types of Defenses[/B]

There are two categories of defense.
1. I did not do it defenses, and
2. I did it but defenses.
Affirmative defenses are available in both categories.


[...]

[INDENT][B]ii. I Did It But[/B]
Many more affirmative defenses fall into the “I did it but” category. Insanity,
entrapment, self defense, necessity, duress, are many of the statutory affirmative
defenses. In these situations, there is a major strategic aspect to deciding on the
defense. Assertion of the specific affirmative defense essentially concedes that the
defendant was involved in the conduct alleged. While the government must still
prove each element assertion of many affirmative defenses tells the jury the
government is in fact correct as too much of the charge, BUT, there is a fact or facts
which serve to exonerate the conduct. Self defense is an affirmative defense to
assault, but by asserting self defense the defendant admits to the assault then gives
a legal reason why guilt does not attach to the conduct. If the jury rejects the self
defense argument, they are supposed to still find proof BRD of all the elements.
Once you have put on your self defense claim, do you think a jury will spend much
time on deciding if assaultive conduct actually occurred? I don’t think so. In an I
did it but case, the defense is generally hanging the whole case on the jury accepting
the affirmative defense presented. Sure there are exceptions to every rule but
realistically how may jurors will accept arguments in the alternative. I did not assault
her, but if I did it was in self defense. I don’t think that works with a jury. Maybe
in a bench trial but even federal judges are human. In deciding to present an I did it
but affirmative defense review these issues with the client. I suggest you have a letter
explaining the issues to them.[/INDENT]

[B]Google Doc[/B]
[url]https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:06-_HilumfEJ:www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf+affirmative+defense&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjQQ9DDIG6I9rtWnkdrvG4XMpf-h2KGVxjIf2cgCnXgnZ6rKrFrnVZwDO3Pw-YkvR4VQt6w8d4k7Jd6u3XiNVni3HwMVJaz2xJgZswMP-HkNfqJhwe5jZwla03YrbDJEf3LwZ9D&sig=AHIEtbQjGQcnos5_jKrclWonXfetxH8Zuw[/url]

[B]Straight Pdf[/B]
[url=www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/url][/SIZE]

Your cut and past of Affirmative Defense proves I'm right. You even have hilighted that the DEFENSE must show proof to the jury of their claim when using affirmative defense. So if Zimmerman claims self defense he must, as your own highlighted portion explains:


To establish an affirmative defense the defendant must place before the jury sufficient proof to generate a jury instruction on the particular defense theory sought.​


and from your post:


An affirmative defense is one which requires the actual production of evidence, be it testimonial or physical.​


and from your post:


Affirmative defenses do not directly attack an element of the crime but provide either justification for the conduct or some other legally recognized approach to undermining the charge.​


Every one of those explain that if you use an affirmative defense you have to get off your ass and show with proof. It's specifically saying that you can't declare an affirmative defense and then sit back on your laurels.
 
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Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

Can you provide a link to the video that shows a bloody nose? I haven't seen it. Also, have you had a bloody nose? Blood goes everywhere unless you stop the bleeding right away. The video I saw showed no blood on his shirt or jacket, front or back. Seems kinda odd to me...

For the bloody nose I can't...that only shows the gashes on the back of Zimmermans head...however it has been reported via police reports that Zimmerman did have a bloody nose and that paramedics had cleaned him up at the scene. Though to be honest I think that the video's do show a taped up nose. But apparently other people cannot see it so I've given up on showing those.

But even if we were to discount his bloody nose how is it possible that Zimmerman has two gashes on the back of the head? Which the video's do show.

[video]http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-22424932/george-zimmerman-enhanced-video-shows-injury-28804646.html[/video]
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Your cut and past of Affirmative Defense proves I'm right.
LOL
Not really.

Word choice.

Providing "proof of" is not the same thing as proving.


And again; It doesn't actually have to be proven at all.

As I already said, the defense can sit there and not do anything accept argue to the jury that the prosecutor did not prove the elements of the crime. Because the prosecutor still has that obligation to prove those beyond a reasonable doubt.

In addition, Zimmerman doesn't have to testify at all.

You know that an affirmative defense has already been established, right?
The prosecutor already has his statements.
So it is now up to the prosecutor to show beyond a reasonable doubt that he actually committed a crime,
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

No defendent should have to prove that they are innocent.
That's more a statement of your feelings than an assessment of how the self-defense defense works.
Self-defense is an affirmative defense generally.
He has already provided his affirmative defense.
All his lawyer has to do is introduce it at trial, which can be achieved in a few ways. One of which can be accomplished without Zimmerman even testifying.
But as I said previously, I seriously doubt that he wont testify.
And it doesn't actually have to be proven at all.
Affirmative defense | LII / Legal Information Institute
A defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).​

So it seems he does have to show that he was acting in self-defense. If he can't show that then the jury is to find him guilty, afaict.

This is different than how muciti characterized it:
Based on those facts that we know Zimmerman I dont think it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense. At best it is controversial and that works to the defendants benefit.

Muciti seems to say that if the state can't show beyond a reasonable doubt then Z is acquitted.
But what I reading elsewhere seems to say that if Z can't show that he acted in self-defense, he is convicted.

I am not sure that the ambiguity works to Z benefit in the trial stage though it seems it did in the investigation phase because of the sygl.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

That's more a statement of your feelings than an assessment of how the self-defense defense works.
Self-defense is an affirmative defense generally.

Affirmative defense | LII / Legal Information Institute
A defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).​

So it seems he does have to show that he was acting in self-defense. If he can't show that then the jury is to find him guilty, afaict.

This is different than how muciti characterized it:


Muciti seems to say that if the state can't show beyond a reasonable doubt then Z is acquitted.
But what I reading elsewhere seems to say that if Z can't show that he acted in self-defense, he is convicted.

I am not sure that the ambiguity works to Z benefit in the trial stage though it seems it did in the investigation phase because of the sygl.
Go back and read what I provided.
He does not have to do jack.

And by read what I provided, I mean at least two or three pages of the link.
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

I will let the following explain it better.


UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES

Code:
[SIZE=1][B]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/B]

[B]I. Legal Groundwork For Affirmative Defenses

A. What is an Affirmative Defense?[/B]

An affirmative defense is one which provides a defense without negating an essential
element of the crime charge. To establish an affirmative defense [/SIZE][highlight][b][u][SIZE=1]the defendant[/u][/b] must place
before the jury sufficient [B][I][U][FONT=Georgia]proof[/FONT][/U][/I][/B][/highlight] to generate a jury instruction on the particular defense theory
sought. Normally, an affirmative defense is expressly designated as affirmative by statute,
or is a defense involving an excuse or justification peculiarly within the knowledge of the
accused.

[B]B.  How is an Affirmative Defense different from a “Regular” Defense?[/B]

An affirmative defense is one which requires the actual production of evidence, be
it testimonial or physical. The evidence can be adduced through cross examination of
Government witnesses or produced after the close of the Government’s case in chief.
Affirmative defenses do not directly attack an element of the crime but provide either
justification for the conduct or some other legally recognized approach to undermining the
charge. [/SIZE][highlight][b][SIZE=1]A [u]defendant[/u] must generate an affirmative defense instruction.[/b][/SIZE][/highlight][SIZE=1]


[B]Google Doc[/B]
[URL]https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:06-_HilumfEJ:www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf+affirmative+defense&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjQQ9DDIG6I9rtWnkdrvG4XMpf-h2KGVxjIf2cgCnXgnZ6rKrFrnVZwDO3Pw-YkvR4VQt6w8d4k7Jd6u3XiNVni3HwMVJaz2xJgZswMP-HkNfqJhwe5jZwla03YrbDJEf3LwZ9D&sig=AHIEtbQjGQcnos5_jKrclWonXfetxH8Zuw[/URL]

[B]Straight Pdf[/B]
[URL="http://www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf"]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/URL][/SIZE]
I adjusted your highlights to make it more clear as to who has the obligation to do what
 
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Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

If Martin didn't attack Zimmerman how is it that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and 2 gashes on the back of his head? Which the proof of that is in the enhanced video's of Zimmerman at the police station.

Just saying, you can attack someone and still lose. Some folks do get in over their head.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Go back and read what I provided.
He does not have to do jack.
What you posted uses the language "the defendant must".

Maybe those words mean something different to you than they do to me. w/e

:shrug:
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

Self Defence | Defences | Criminal Charges

In any assault type offence, you can raise self defence as an issue in your case. Once the question of self-defence is put in issue, the onus is on the prosecution to disprove self-defence beyond reasonable doubt. If the prosecution fail to disprove self defence the accused will be entitled to an acquittal.
The question to be asked in the end is quite simple. It is whether the accused believed upon reasonable grounds that it was necessary in self-defence to do what he [or she] did (Zecevic v Director of Public Prosecutions (1987) 162 CLR 645 at 661 per Wilson, Dawson and Toohey JJ).

There are two elements to this test:

The accused must have believed at the time that s/he committed the relevant act that what s/he was doing was necessary (known as the “subjective element”); and
That belief must have been based on reasonable grounds (known as the “objective element”).

Raising Self defence & who has to prove what

Once the question of self-defence is put in issue, the onus is on the prosecution to disprove at least one of these elements beyond reasonable doubt. If the prosecution fail to disprove at least one of these elements the accused will be entitled to an acquittal.

So then. Zimmerman only has to state that he acted in self defense. And he has to state why he felt his life was in danger. In this case, head being beaten into the concrete while Zimmerman was down and Martin going for Zimmermans gun. Zimmerman only has to state that. He can go a step further and show his injuries. The eye witnesses also support his story. So I think it is reasonable to make the claim.

The burden is then on the prosecution to disprove that beyond a reasonable doubt. They either have to show that Zimmermans life was not in danger or they have to show that lethal force was not needed. Even though Zimmerman only has to introduce the possibility and convince 1 of 12 that it is reasonably possible his life was in danger, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to all 12.

The burden is on the prosecution.
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

The burden of proof always lies with the prosecution. Zimmerman has claimed self defense. He does not have to prove it. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act with self defense. Zimmerman's defense only has to make 1 out of 12 people believe that he might have acted in self defense. The prosecution has to prove to all 12 that there is no way that he acted in self defense.
Based on what I and econ have posted, I think that you are in error on this count. ymmv
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

What posted use the language "the defendant must".

Maybe those words mean something different to you than they do to me. w/e

:shrug:
You know better than this.

The defense can simply argue that the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof.
They can do this in a motion to dismiss to the court, and they can argue it to a jury, all without having introduced anything.
Do you understand that?
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Go back and read what I provided.
He does not have to do jack.

You are refuting yourself. From your own link of legal speak on Affirmative defense:


- An affirmative defense is one which requires the actual production of evidence
- ...the defendant must place before the jury sufficient proof
- ...provide either justification for the conduct or some other legally recognized approach to undermining the charge.​


Your own link says flat out that if you declare an affirmative defense you actually have to do something. You can't simply "not have to do jack."

How can you not see your own post?
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

You know better than this.
The defense can simply argue that the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof.
They can do this in a motion to dismiss to the court, and they can argue it to a jury, all without having introduced anything.
Do you understand that?

What you're saying is true in general. However, it doesn't apply in this case because Z has already admitted to shooting M.
That's already a given. the state doesn't have to prove that part anymore.
All that's left in question is whether Z's justification holds water.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

If the defense raised is an affirmative defense (self-defense, entrapment, duress, etc.), the burden is on the defendant to present supporting evidence. An affirmative defense is one that doesn't challenge the facts presented by the prosecution but rather excuses conduct that is otherwise deemed unlawful.

Criminal Trials - Who Has the Burden of Proof? - Lawyers.com

It seems it varies from state to state, but there is some burden on the defense.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

You know better than this.

The defense can simply argue that the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof.

No they can't. In a regular defense they can do this but with an affirmative defense, Zimmerman is flat out admitting that he isn't innocent of killing Treyvon. If he were to have the defense that he didn't kill Treyvon then it would have to be proven by the prosecution that he did in fact kill Treyvon.

But the admission of killing Treyvon, via an affirmative defense, puts the burden on the defendent to show why... as your legal post clearly states.

They can do this in a motion to dismiss to the court, and they can argue it to a jury, all without having introduced anything.
Do you understand that?

You've gone so far into believing your are right instead that you won't accept anything else said no matter how definitive it is. The only thing that will open your eyes to it is watching it actually unfold before you eyes soooo.... I guess we'll have to wait until the trial, if there is one, happens before you can admit you were in error on this.
 
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