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Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:169]

Re: Zimmerman charged

If the defense raised is an affirmative defense (self-defense, entrapment, duress, etc.), the burden is on the defendant to present supporting evidence. An affirmative defense is one that doesn't challenge the facts presented by the prosecution but rather excuses conduct that is otherwise deemed unlawful.

Criminal Trials - Who Has the Burden of Proof? - Lawyers.com

It seems it varies from state to state, but there is some burden on the defense.

Maybe I am just focusing on the wording too much but in your post it says the defense must present supporting evidence. There is a pretty big difference between showing supporting evidence and proving your SD claim.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

No they can't. In a regular defense they can do this but with an affirmative defense, Zimmerman is flat out admitting that he isn't innocent of killing Treyvon. If he were to have the defense that he didn't kill Treyvon then it would have to be proven by the prosecution that he did in fact kill Treyvon.

But the admission of killing Treyvon, via an affirmative defense, puts the burden on the defendent to show why... as your legal post clearly states.



You've gone so far into believing your are right instead that you won't accept anything else said no matter how definitive it is. The only thing that will open your eyes to it is watching it actually unfold before you eyes soooo.... I guess we'll have to wait until the trial, if there is one, happens before you can admit you were in error on this.

What I am coming from this with, after reading thru all the info thats been posted here in the last 15 or so minutes is what I replied back to Boo with. The defense does not have to prove anything, but they do have to show supporting evidence. They cant just say it was SD and leave it at that. Once the defense provides supporting evidence (i am not sure on how much supporting evidence or how strong that supporting evidence needs to be) the burden is on the state to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

The parts I reposted and highlighted, boldfaced and underlined, etc.

I must be missing something. You reposted my entire post, but i dont see anything highlighted bold faced or underlined.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ear-his-safety-w-169-a-10.html#post1060388560



Maybe I am just focusing on the wording too much but in your post it says the defense must present supporting evidence. There is a pretty big difference between showing supporting evidence and proving your SD claim.
even though the laws vary from place to place, it still shows where the burden lies, with the defense.
If they can't meet that burden then the prosecution wins afaict.
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ear-his-safety-w-169-a-10.html#post1060388560



even though the laws vary from place to place, it still shows where the burden lies, with the defense.
If they can't meet that burden then the prosecution wins afaict.

That link doesnt show me what you bolded and highlighted. I'm sorry. I dont see it.

The defense does not have a burden of proof. If thats what your saying. The defense has to show supporting evidence. That is not the same as the burden of proof.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Maybe I am just focusing on the wording too much but in your post it says the defense must present supporting evidence. There is a pretty big difference between showing supporting evidence and proving your SD claim.

As said, after reading a few of this, the burden varies. In some places, like Ohio I think, the burden is rather high. For others, less so. But what I see as a point is they can't just sit there and say self defense and not provide some evidence that they were being threatened, and that the situation required their action.
 
Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

Now if we can only get Ted Nugent to chime in then we'll all have a very balanced and relevant repartee summing up the whole episode.





Nugent would, I suspect say the same thing, we don't have the facts, let the jury decide.....


oh, wait, he did saysomething similar to many of us..


Morgan “attempted to get me on the gun issue, but I let him have it,” Nugent said in the radio interview. “I kept it civil, and I let him know that the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman situation is anything but what most of the media was attempting to depict it as. We should be ashamed ourselves that our media in the United States of America is convicting this man, convicting him of quote, cold-blooded murder” without all the facts. “I’m not taking sides in this,” Nugent added, “but I’ve got some perspective working in law enforcement for most of my life.”

Ted Nugent Responds To Piers Morgan Interview About Trayvon: Anybody Who ‘Tries To Take Me On’ Will ‘Always Lose’ | Mediaite
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

As said, after reading a few of this, the burden varies. In some places, like Ohio I think, the burden is rather high. For others, less so. But what I see as a point is they can't just sit there and say self defense and not provide some evidence that they were being threatened, and that the situation required their action.

That makes sense. At this point I agree they have to show some proof. But they dont have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they acted in self defense. The question then becomes what constitutes enough supporting evidence?

I am thinking maybe that question is up to the jury's discretion. Whether or not they feel its enough.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

That makes sense. At this point I agree they have to show some proof. But they dont have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they acted in self defense. The question then becomes what constitutes enough supporting evidence?

Agreed. I would like to see more on Florida law, but in my intermittent searches, I have run across it yet.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Is everybody aware that Zimmerman's father is a former magistrate judge? I don't know how much he may be trying to influence things, but it could be a factor.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

What I am coming from this with, after reading thru all the info thats been posted here in the last 15 or so minutes is what I replied back to Boo with. The defense does not have to prove anything, but they do have to show supporting evidence. They cant just say it was SD and leave it at that. Once the defense provides supporting evidence (i am not sure on how much supporting evidence or how strong that supporting evidence needs to be) the burden is on the state to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt

I think you and I are getting closer together on this. I'm reading the law as stating that when you admit to the shooting by claiming an affirmative defense, then you have to justify the shooting you did. Meaning the burden to show the justification for the shooting is on the defense. Then if you claim SYG... you have to show supporting evidence that you were in fact standing your ground in defense of yourself and not provoking the incident that you already admitted that you are a part of.
 
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Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

Nugent would, I suspect say the same thing, we don't have the facts, let the jury decide.....


oh, wait, he did saysomething similar to many of us..


Morgan “attempted to get me on the gun issue, but I let him have it,” Nugent said in the radio interview. “I kept it civil, and I let him know that the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman situation is anything but what most of the media was attempting to depict it as. We should be ashamed ourselves that our media in the United States of America is convicting this man, convicting him of quote, cold-blooded murder” without all the facts. “I’m not taking sides in this,” Nugent added, “but I’ve got some perspective working in law enforcement for most of my life.”

Ted Nugent Responds To Piers Morgan Interview About Trayvon: Anybody Who ‘Tries To Take Me On’ Will ‘Always Lose’ | Mediaite

Interesting that Ted bit his tongue. Usually when he talks about something turned political it goes something like this:


 
Re: Zimmerman charged

That link doesnt show me what you bolded and highlighted. I'm sorry. I dont see it.
Not sure how to help.

The defense does not have a burden of proof. If thats what your saying. The defense has to show supporting evidence. That is not the same as the burden of proof.
The defense has the burden of providing the evidence. It's the obligation of the defense to affirmatively demonstrate their case. If they cannot meet their obligation, the prosecution wins. Not all that interested in parsing terms here.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

That makes sense. At this point I agree they have to show some proof. But they dont have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they acted in self defense. The question then becomes what constitutes enough supporting evidence?
I am thinking maybe that question is up to the jury's discretion. Whether or not they feel its enough.
Afaict, from the sources provided so far, it varies by state and it's up to the legislature to decide.
 
Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

Interesting that Ted bit his tongue. Usually when he talks about something turned political it goes something like this:


[xvideo=youtube;vy8RIiTyhMI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy8RIiTyhMI[/video]​


that's a concert, while he's very animated, he's also very smart and has strong opinions that I agree with, It seems though they tend to get speculated upon and misunderstood. When you posted that, I retorted before I even had a link, I was sure, he would be like the rest of us not being idiots about this case, and stating that we don't take sides, let the law settle it.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

What you're saying is true in general. However, it doesn't apply in this case because Z has already admitted to shooting M.
That's already a given. the state doesn't have to prove that part anymore.
All that's left in question is whether Z's justification holds water.
It does apply here.
I am not saying what is going to be done in this case.
All I am saying is that they do not have to.
The defense can go in with the intention and declaration that they will provide evidence. Only to find that the prosecution did not meet their burden. A dismissal can then be asked for from the Court, or in the alternative, argued to the jury.
The defense does not have to do anything more, under that context.

I am sorry that I can not explain it any better to you, because what I am saying is correct.

[end]


You all are acting like this is some huge burden on Zimmerman.
It isn't.

In this case he has already established his affirmative defense. His statements.

It is now up to the prosecution to prove it wasn't self-defense.
Who do you think is going to admit Zimmerman's statements as part of their case in chief?
You want to bet it will be the prosecution?
[end]

If one is to read the law that was already provided they would have found that ...

Heck, let these lawyers explain confuse you more than I could.

Code:
...
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s776.031
is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil
action for the use of such force...

[highlight]This language makes clear that the law provides a true immunity and not merely
an affirmative defense.[/highlight] The Florida legislative session law notes demonstrate the
true intent behind the new law stating; "The Legislature finds that it is proper for
law-abiding people to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders
and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of
themselves and others". Ch. 2005-27 at 200, Laws of Florida. See Peterson v State,
983 So. 2d 27 (Fla. 1 st DCA 2008)

Around the State of Florida the appellate courts have been wrestling with the proper
procedure for pursuing a claim of immunity. The First District Court of Appeal has
embraced an evidentiary hearing permitting the trial court to weigh and confront
factual disputes to render a ruling. (See Peterson) However, the
Fourth District Court of Appeal has ruled that when the State files a proper traverse
the motion for dismissal must be denied by the trial court and the case proceeds to trial.
(See Velasquez v State, 9 So. 3d 22 (Fla. 4 th DCA, 2009)) The Florida Supreme Court
has not yet issued an opinion on the proper procedure for asserting an immunity claim
in pre-trial litigation. The Second District Court of Appeal affirmed the denial of
a Motion to Dismiss based on FS 776.032(1) immunity, but does not comment on
procedure. State v Heckman , 993 So. D 1004 (Fla. 2d DCA 2007)
...


If they cannot meet their obligation, the prosecution wins.
That isn't correct.
The prosecution still has to prove all other elements, beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
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Re: Zimmerman charged

Or the nazi assholes, who are already in town, attempting to stir things up.


No, they are merely there to level the playing field against the other assholes who are actually making threats of trouble to come.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

No, they are merely there to level the playing field against the other assholes who are actually making threats of trouble to come.

no, they are making it worse. Neither needs to be there. You cant excuse the actions of one group by pointing at another.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Code:
...
A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s776.031
is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil
action for the use of such force...

[highlight]This language makes clear that the law provides a true immunity and not merely
an affirmative defense.[/highlight] The Florida legislative session law notes demonstrate the
true intent behind the new law stating; "The Legislature finds that it is proper for
law-abiding people to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders
and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of
themselves and others". Ch. 2005-27 at 200, Laws of Florida. See Peterson v State,
983 So. 2d 27 (Fla. 1 st DCA 2008)

Around the State of Florida the appellate courts have been wrestling with the proper
procedure for pursuing a claim of immunity. The First District Court of Appeal has
embraced an evidentiary hearing permitting the trial court to weigh and confront
factual disputes to render a ruling. (See Peterson) However, the
Fourth District Court of Appeal has ruled that when the State files a proper traverse
the motion for dismissal must be denied by the trial court and the case proceeds to trial.
(See Velasquez v State, 9 So. 3d 22 (Fla. 4 th DCA, 2009)) The Florida Supreme Court
has not yet issued an opinion on the proper procedure for asserting an immunity claim
in pre-trial litigation. The Second District Court of Appeal affirmed the denial of
a Motion to Dismiss based on FS 776.032(1) immunity, but does not comment on
procedure. State v Heckman , 993 So. D 1004 (Fla. 2d DCA 2007)
...
[URL="http://www.hessingerlaw.com/Articles/Self-Defense-and-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-Law.aspx"]Self Defense and Florida's Stand Your Ground Law [/URL]


Oops.
Forgot to link to the above info.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Is there a reasonable doubt that Z shot M?
lol
We don't know that, do we?

For all we know, the gun very well could have been in Trayvon's hands, with his finger on the trigger the moment it went off.
:mrgreen:
[end]

Look, I already stated that it isn't what is going to happen.
I only provided the information to show that they really don't have to do jack.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

Is that what is being tried? I dont think so. I think the question would be better phrased as Is there a reasonable doubt that Z murdered M in the 2nd degree.
Look, I already stated that it isn't what is going to happen.
I only provided the information to show that they really don't have to do jack.
Just pointing out that most of the case is a settled matter. All that's in play atm is Z's justification. Afaict, pretty much that's what the trial will be about.

Perhaps you're right perhaps Z's defense is not obligated to show that Z acted in self-defense. It certainly would make it a lot easier for attorneys representing people charged with homicide offenses if the attorneys weren't obligated to demonstrate that their clients acted in self-defense.
 
Re: Zimmerman charged

No, they are merely there to level the playing field against the other assholes who are actually making threats of trouble to come.

*translastion

"I only dislike the racists that aren't on my side..."

LOL
 
Re: Attorneys for George Zimmerman,..say they can't find him, fear for his safety [W:

Just saying, you can attack someone and still lose. Some folks do get in over their head.

But have you ever seen someone attack someone first and not leave some kind of mark on that person?
 
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