Appeals Court rules for transgender teen in Virginia bathroom case

[CaptainCourtesy]

Wow. Thanks for this post. Strangely enough I pretty much agree with everything you said and I didn't actually expect we would be that close on this issue. Though that actually makes me feel a bit better about it.

When someone actually discusses the issue, intelligently, and tries to understand it rather than coming from a biased or ignorant position, it is very easy for me to discuss it with them... and for them to find out that there is no extremism on my end of the issue at all. Unfortunately, I find myself bunting ignorance and extremism far too often to engage in THIS kind of discussion. I will say it has been happening more often. And I did expect us to mostly agree. Though we differ, politically, philosophically, I'm aligned with people who can look at things, critically and globally, as you do.

One of my BIG hangups is something you addressed in the post you quoted:



I've watched other kids, and even myself, growing up go through soooooo many "identity" changes. What you like, who you like, how you dress, how you talk, what you do, what you're attracted to, etc. Every step of the way people always seemed to think "This is the REAL ME!" and that it'd be forever...until the next phase came on. And I've watched how culture and the world around has impacted that MASASIVELY when I grow up. And in an age where activism is becoming a "popular" and "trendy" thing, and where exposure and praise is being focused upon people coming out/changing, and where people are continually being bombarded with calls to question "binary gender/sexuality" and ask who they "really are"...there's a large part of me that thinks such things actually could CAUSE as much "confusion" in kids as it could help the confusion in others.

IE, I think they say that roughly 10% of the population has non-heterosexual thoughts. Now lets imagine all of those kids are confused growing up. That's definitely a bad thing for that 10%. But part of me wonders, if we focus so much on asking and talking to EVERY kid about what gender they feel, what sexual orientation they are, who do they like and WHY do they like them, etc, that we may still end up with 10% of the population growing up confused...it'll just be a DIFFERENT 10%.

That doesn't mean I think every minor who feels like a different gender isn't a transgender. But it also means that I don't think every girl who previously would've been viewed as a "tom boy" in the past is basically just a transgendered person that our transfobic society stifled by fitting them into binary gender roles and that we need to encourage and educate them all on how they can determine their gender presentation freely.

I know I get a lot of flak on here for both sides of taking a "middle ground" position too much, but I definitely feel like that's the most logical space on this one. There are people with clinically diagnosable medical issues that truly have an issue as it relates to their gender identity and their actual biology, and we should make efforts to provide them help and protection under the law. At the same time, I disagree with how those people are then seemingly being used to push for a much more broader notion of "acceptance" for much beyond that, and manipulated as a political tool for broader social matters.

All true and the basis of my position on this is, is both the research and my understanding of both developmental psychology and developmental biology. Teenagers are still learning who they are and their sense of identity can be quite fluid. One day they could be a "prep". A month later, they're into a sport and identify with that group. The next year, they're hanging with the "goth" kids. Kids change identities sometimes as often as they change clothes. Research tells us that at least 30% of 15-17 year olds who identify as transsexual are NOT. And the percentage gets HIGHER as the kid gets younger. Those percentages are not solid enough for me to mess with powerful hormones or surgery unless I'm pretty damn sure that it's not an adolescent developmental issue. I had a client I started working with when he was 15. After my evaluation (6 months) I was pretty certain he was trans. But for the next 3 years I continued to examine and assess. I didn't authorize HRT until he was 19, at which time his identity and personality had been stable for a few years. I HATE it when "tomboys" are seen as transsexuals. That is such a biased stereotype. The key here is to ALWAYS do a thorough examination. Politics be damned.

Oh, and believe it or not, I have been called transphobic for some of my positions. Just goes to show that for some politics over rides reason.

 

[ludin]

The definition provided is flawed. I've given the difference between the two. This is very true in the law. Why do you think you couldn't prosecute someone for perjury even if their testimony doesn't match the known facts unless you can prove they intentionally lied?

so you are saying that a dictionary is wrong? what authority do you have to say that this is is the case.
no you gave your opinion. your opinion is not what we base the definition of words.

this isn't true in the law at all.

you do know what perjury is don't you? it is knowingly lying on the stand.

that also doesn't prove your point either. on the stand they tell their opinion of what happened.
the truth is when what they say matches the evidence provided. facts and truth cannot be separated as the definition says.

until then they are just stating an opinion.
what they think is true and what actually is true are 2 separate things.

one is an opinion the other is reality based on fact.

 

[WCH]

The influence of the church is thankfully diminishing with time and knowledge. Jesus was a great guy from all accounts and just his main teachings would be good to live by, if only more Christians would concern themselves with actually doing that rather than imposing their beliefs on others.

It's a war between good and evil...always has been, always will be.

 

[ludin]

When someone actually discusses the issue, intelligently, and tries to understand it rather than coming from a biased or ignorant position, it is very easy for me to discuss it with them... and for them to find out that there is no extremism on my end of the issue at all. Unfortunately, I find myself bunting ignorance and extremism far too often to engage in THIS kind of discussion. I will say it has been happening more often. And I did expect us to mostly agree. Though we differ, politically, philosophically, I'm aligned with people who can look at things, critically and globally, as you do.



All true and the basis of my position on this is, is both the research and my understanding of both developmental psychology and developmental biology. Teenagers are still learning who they are and their sense of identity can be quite fluid. One day they could be a "prep". A month later, they're into a sport and identify with that group. The next year, they're hanging with the "goth" kids. Kids change identities sometimes as often as they change clothes. Research tells us that at least 30% of 15-17 year olds who identify as transsexual are NOT. And the percentage gets HIGHER as the kid gets younger. Those percentages are not solid enough for me to mess with powerful hormones or surgery unless I'm pretty damn sure that it's not an adolescent developmental issue. I had a client I started working with when he was 15. After my evaluation (6 months) I was pretty certain he was trans. But for the next 3 years I continued to examine and assess. I didn't authorize HRT until he was 19, at which time his identity and personality had been stable for a few years. I HATE it when "tomboys" are seen as transsexuals. That is such a biased stereotype. The key here is to ALWAYS do a thorough examination. Politics be damned.

Oh, and believe it or not, I have been called transphobic for some of my positions. Just goes to show that for some politics over rides reason.

This is the post I have been waiting to see from you for a while.
up until this point your view on the situation has been 100% the other direction.

many of the things you mentioned in this post I have mentioned before and you vehemently denied that they existed even though
they were sited from independent medical research clinics.

we might disagree on the overall treatment or the condition, but at least I can respect your position a bit better.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

This is the post I have been waiting to see from you for a while.
up until this point your view on the situation has been 100% the other direction.

many of the things you mentioned in this post I have mentioned before and you vehemently denied that they existed even though
they were sited from independent medical research clinics.

we might disagree on the overall treatment or the condition, but at least I can respect your position a bit better.

What are you talking about? I've made posts like this several times. In fact, some of the information I took from a post I made from another thread. I have NEVER taken an opposite position to any of the things that I said in the post you quoted. The problem we often have is that you cite information that really isn't relevant to what we are discussing or research that doesn't prove what you want it to. And then you get belligerent and personal like you did last time when I call you on this. If you want to know where I stand on this issue, ask. If you really want to know more about transsexuality, ask. My guess is that you will find out that I am fairly conservative when it comes to transsexuality. You'll probably also learn a whole lot that you either didn't know and/or things that conflict with your view. Probably help.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

It's a war between good and evil...always has been, always will be.

My guess is that you are confused over where evil lays.

 

[ludin]

What are you talking about? I've made posts like this several times. In fact, some of the information I took from a post I made from another thread. I have NEVER taken an opposite position to any of the things that I said in the post you quoted. The problem we often have is that you cite information that really isn't relevant to what we are discussing or research that doesn't prove what you want it to. And then you get belligerent and personal like you did last time when I call you on this. If you want to know where I stand on this issue, ask. If you really want to know more about transsexuality, ask. My guess is that you will find out that I am fairly conservative when it comes to transsexuality. You'll probably also learn a whole lot that you either didn't know and/or things that conflict with your view. Probably help.

I don't think I read it I try to stay away from threads like this.
I find that the arguments end up circular and get no where.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I don't think I read it I try to stay away from threads like this.
I find that the arguments end up circular and get no where.

Like I said in my other post, too many are filled with foolishness and misinformation based on political bias. I find that I need to bunt away most of that crap. I much prefer to make posts like I did towards Zyph.

 

[ludin]

My guess is that you are confused over where evil lays.

19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

this is what happens when we allow emotion, feelings and passion to control a person.
without logic, reason to counter it.

 

[American]

You're missing his point. There is no discomfort because you will have no idea that a transsexual is sharing a bathroom with you. THAT'S the point.

So you're saying a law is unenforceable because no one could know.

 

[jmotivator]

President Obama said today (and I have heard many opponents of H2B say as much) that a Transgender person should be allowed to use whatever bathroom they want. My question is: should the same hold true for everyone else?

 

[chromium]

Hatred? You're full it buddy. You don't know what real hate is.

i knew you couldn't explain it - thus the irrational nature of it

 

[American]

i knew you couldn't explain it - thus the irrational nature of it

ISIS and what they do is real hatred, you need to get a grip.

 

[chromium]

IE, I think they say that roughly 10% of the population has non-heterosexual thoughts. Now lets imagine all of those kids are confused growing up. That's definitely a bad thing for that 10%. But part of me wonders, if we focus so much on asking and talking to EVERY kid about what gender they feel, what sexual orientation they are, who do they like and WHY do they like them, etc, that we may still end up with 10% of the population growing up confused...it'll just be a DIFFERENT 10%.

i don't know about transgenderism at that age, CC may be right. It makes sense to me because gender is a social construct. But there is no way everyone with non hetero thoughts is confused and that it's like identifying as goth. Kids are coming out at 12-13 and staying that way. Nothing can be a bigger giveaway than who we're attracted to, so it doesn't have to be confusing at all

 

[chromium]

ISIS and what they do is real hatred, you need to get a grip.

oh yeah, because denying someone basic rights and dignity including even being in the same room as you isn't hatred. That's like saying jim crow south wasn't "real hatred," only slavery was

i gave you every opportunity to explain yourself and you only deflect

 

[American]

oh yeah, because denying someone basic rights and dignity including even being in the same room as you isn't hatred. That's like saying jim crow south wasn't "real hatred," only slavery was

i gave you every opportunity to explain yourself and you only deflect

Tell me how you explain a subjective feeling. But anyway, you approach to discussion is to personally attack someone. Really classy.

 

[roguenuke]

It's a war between good and evil...always has been, always will be.

Lol. That's all I can say to that

 

[SocialD]

President Obama said today (and I have heard many opponents of H2B say as much) that a Transgender person should be allowed to use whatever bathroom they want. My question is: should the same hold true for everyone else?

This is kind of the avenue of discussion I was going down too. Its one thing if a person has underwent surgery and all the other transformation and is now living full time as the other gender. Its quite another if someone is simply a guy wearing a skirt and saying he is a she today. how its handled matters I think.

 

[chromium]

Tell me how you explain a subjective feeling. But anyway, you approach to discussion is to personally attack someone. Really classy.

you're one to talk. You think that insulting lgbt, as you do frequently, is somehow not personal

 

[American]

you're one to talk. You think that insulting lgbt, as you do frequently, is somehow not personal

I insult you frequently? Really?

 

[chromium]

I insult you frequently? Really?

if you'd like, i will dust off the old search feature and the quotes will be a mile long

 

[American]

if you'd like, i will dust off the old search feature and the quotes will be a mile long

Sure, you can demonstrate your sensitivity, if that makes you feel better. You do have a reputation in this regard around here. So no one will be surprised.

 

[jmotivator]

This is kind of the avenue of discussion I was going down too. Its one thing if a person has underwent surgery and all the other transformation and is now living full time as the other gender. Its quite another if someone is simply a guy wearing a skirt and saying he is a she today. how its handled matters I think.

And, by the arguments used by the H2B opponents, anything attempting to figure that out is wrong and we're terrible for asking.

 

[Caine]

Then never go to the bathroom, because you will ALWAYS have the chance of going to the bathroom where a transgender may enter, until such time that transgenders are either barred from entering any bathroom OR a third unisex bathroom is mandated to be placed in all buildings that have bathroom facilities.

If you allow people to go in the bathroom that matches their outward gender, then Transgendered Men (Those who were women but are now men) would be using the bathroom with you.

If you disallow people to go in the bathroom that matches their outward gender, then Transgendered Women (Those who were men, but are now women) would be using the bathroom with you.

In either case, speaking legally, a transgender person may enter the bathroom you're in

I don't mind that at all......

I don't want a law making either mandatory and subject to fines for private businesses open to the public like Charlotte did.

Alot of people seem to think HB2 did this in reverse of Charlotte. They didn't. They simply applied specific regulations for bathrooms for the NC Public Education system and wiped Charlotte's law off the map.

Businesses in NC are still free to allow transgender people to use whatever bathroom they so choose to, nobody is stopping them.

 

[lpast]

Why wasnt this an issue for my first 65 yrs of life. Where did everyone go to the bathroom before.