Appeals Court rules for transgender teen in Virginia bathroom case

[TurtleDude]

Appeals court rules for transgender teen in Virginia bathroom case | News & Observer

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling Tuesday in the case of a Virginia transgender teen clarifies how the court is likely to view questions about North Carolina’s widely watched new law, commonly called House Bill 2.
Amid protests, boycotts and heated debate about transgender people and the bathrooms they use, the 4th Circuit judges split 2-1 on whether 16-year-old Gavin Grimm, a high school student in rural Virginia, has the right to use the restroom designated for the gender with which he identifies.

sounds like this might spur a lower federal court to act on the NC law

 

[SocialD]

Appeals court rules for transgender teen in Virginia bathroom case | News & Observer

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling Tuesday in the case of a Virginia transgender teen clarifies how the court is likely to view questions about North Carolina’s widely watched new law, commonly called House Bill 2.
Amid protests, boycotts and heated debate about transgender people and the bathrooms they use, the 4th Circuit judges split 2-1 on whether 16-year-old Gavin Grimm, a high school student in rural Virginia, has the right to use the restroom designated for the gender with which he identifies.

sounds like this might spur a lower federal court to act on the NC law

I don't know that I agree with this ruling. if it was adults that would be one thing but minors.
What is going to happen is there will be a sexual assault case at some point by a transgender and then there will be a huge high profile lawsuit.
not that that couldn't happen with adults but in a school situation with minors its different to me at least.

 

[TurtleDude]

I don't know that I agree with this ruling. if it was adults that would be one thing but minors.
What is going to happen is there will be a sexual assault case at some point by a transgender and then there will be a huge high profile lawsuit.
not that that couldn't happen with adults but in a school situation with minors its different to me at least.

hard to say what the fall out would be. I figure if someone is planning a sexual assault-its sort of like thinking a sign saying a school is a gun free zone is going to stop someone like a Klebold or Harris who have premeditated a shooting spree. If you plan on raping someone its not because you can use the ladies' restroom due to some law that basically says you can

 

[SocialD]

hard to say what the fall out would be. I figure if someone is planning a sexual assault-its sort of like thinking a sign saying a school is a gun free zone is going to stop someone like a Klebold or Harris who have premeditated a shooting spree. If you plan on raping someone its not because you can use the ladies' restroom due to some law that basically says you can

That's true. however it would be an easy lawsuit with the complaint being the school allowed a guy who said they wanted to be a girl in a locker room at school with me and they attacked. the school enabled this to happen etc etc..

 

[Your Star]

I don't know that I agree with this ruling. if it was adults that would be one thing but minors.
What is going to happen is there will be a sexual assault case at some point by a transgender and then there will be a huge high profile lawsuit.
not that that couldn't happen with adults but in a school situation with minors its different to me at least.

No. What's more likely to happen is that the transgender teen will be assaulted if they aren't allowed to use the bathroom that aligns with their gender presentation.

 

[SocialD]

No. What's more likely to happen is that the transgender teen will be assaulted if they aren't allowed to use the bathroom that aligns with their gender presentation.

That could also happen. either way a lawsuit.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's true. however it would be an easy lawsuit with the complaint being the school allowed a guy who said they wanted to be a girl in a locker room at school with me and they attacked. the school enabled this to happen etc etc..

why would you be in the girl's locker room? :mrgreen:

I don't think that a school is going to be liable on those grounds-especially since the federal Court of Appeals mandated it

 

[Your Star]

That's true. however it would be an easy lawsuit with the complaint being the school allowed a guy who said they wanted to be a girl in a locker room at school with me and they attacked. the school enabled this to happen etc etc..

That's not how these laws work. You can't just claim to be trans and use the bathroom. You have to be living as your real gender, go through the stages of getting doctor's notes and approvals, getting on hormones, etc. This is not something that someone can abuse like that.

 

[TurtleDude]

No. What's more likely to happen is that the transgender teen will be assaulted if they aren't allowed to use the bathroom that aligns with their gender presentation.

yeah I would agree. Someone who looks like (is it Chaz now) Chastity Bono is more likely to get assaulted going into the girls room then the boy's room.

 

[MrT]

I don't know that I agree with this ruling. if it was adults that would be one thing but minors.
What is going to happen is there will be a sexual assault case at some point by a transgender and then there will be a huge high profile lawsuit.
not that that couldn't happen with adults but in a school situation with minors its different to me at least.

No, there won't be some lawsuit against the school or any large governmental entity even under that scenario. The standards for suing a governmental entity are simply too high for such a tenuous risk to fly as a justification for the lawsuit. Minors being a more protected class versus adults will not change that calculus.

No, the next phase will be an appeal and re-hearing of this case, en banc, with all of the circuit court judges. And then this case, or some similar case if the players from this case are not sympathetic enough for the PR aspect of a Supreme Court case, will probably work its way to the Supreme Court. LGBT rights are expanding. Groups that are trying to prevent that expansion under the guise of protecting any part of the public from the scary LGBT is unlikely to stand the test of time.

 

[TurtleDude]

No, there won't be some lawsuit against the school or any large governmental entity even under that scenario. The standards for suing a governmental entity are simply too high for such a tenuous risk to fly as a justification for the lawsuit. Minors being a more protected class versus adults will not change that calculus.

No, the next phase will be an appeal and re-hearing of this case, en banc, with all of the circuit court judges. And then this case, or some similar case if the players from this case are not sympathetic enough for the PR aspect of a Supreme Court case, will probably work its way to the Supreme Court. LGBT rights are expanding. Groups that are trying to prevent that expansion under the guise of protecting any part of the public from the scary LGBT is unlikely to stand the test of time.

I believe you are correct.

 

[SocialD]

That's not how these laws work. You can't just claim to be trans and use the bathroom. You have to be living as your real gender, go through the stages of getting doctor's notes and approvals, getting on hormones, etc. This is not something that someone can abuse like that.

You should read up more... there are some advocating that it is based on the persons perception only. no doctor no hormones etc..
There was a case where a man was in a girls locker room and was saying he felt he was a woman and woudlnt leave. the mothers of some teenage girls finally got him to leave but the school took a neutral approach on it.

 

[TurtleDude]

You should read up more... there are some advocating that it is based on the persons perception only. no doctor no hormones etc..
There was a case where a man was in a girls locker room and was saying he felt he was a woman and woudlnt leave. the mothers of some teenage girls finally got him to leave but the school took a neutral approach on it.

that is an issue I raised on the NC thread

what counts

1) someone who has gone through the surgery re-assigment (obvious yes)

2) someone who is in transitional therapy, dressing like their "chosen" gender and living consistent with said gender (yes)

3) someone who has determined they are of the other gender but has not yet started living as such nor has started transitioning (gray area-probably not)

4) someone who merely claims they are a woman in a man's body but have done nothing else (obviously not but some state law suggests they could)

 

[SocialD]

that is an issue I raised on the NC thread

what counts

1) someone who has gone through the surgery re-assigment (obvious yes)

2) someone who is in transitional therapy, dressing like their "chosen" gender and living consistent with said gender (yes)

3) someone who has determined they are of the other gender but has not yet started living as such nor has started transitioning (gray area-probably not)

4) someone who merely claims they are a woman in a man's body but have done nothing else (obviously not but some state law suggests they could)

Yea that makes sense.
Then after this is all resolved, then the athletics issue will be the issue I suppose. the former guy completing on the girls basketball team or track team or whatever.
we have had threads about it before I think. its a separate , but overlapping issue.
I'm ok with the restroom thing particularly for adults . minors it still sketchy to me. sports competitions.. depending on the sport though I'm against.

 

[chromium]

IMO, this is the time for obama and the federal agencies to act and pull funding from north carolina. Perhaps give them 10 hours or so to repeal the law they passed in just 10 hours. If obama wants to even dare pretend he champions lgbt rights, he cannot make the lgbt citizens of north carolina wait out another 1-2 years for SCOTUS or whatever to do his job

 

[chuckiechan]

In California the very notion of gender is sexist, and they are well on the way to making gender irrelevant on public school campuses.

Any one who objects is guilty of intolerance and macro level micro aggression.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yea that makes sense.
Then after this is all resolved, then the athletics issue will be the issue I suppose. the former guy completing on the girls basketball team or track team or whatever.
we have had threads about it before I think. its a separate , but overlapping issue.
I'm ok with the restroom thing particularly for adults . minors it still sketchy to me. sports competitions.. depending on the sport though I'm against.

In some sports, a male to female transformation won't result in any unfairness such as say rifle shooting. in some sports it might. due to the pelvic width, men have an advantage in sprinting events. a female athlete who was once male, might well lose muscle mass with hormone therapy but her pelvic width is not going to expand and she'd thus have an advantage in sprinting.

when I was a teenager, I saw my first Male to female athlete-a table tennis player named Elaine Walquist-beat a guy who was about the same level (1850) player I was at the time-she was around 2000 level which is a pretty good level-

but her game-quick blocking style rather than power topspin was how lots of top women play and her game was not one that suggested to me she had and advantage over other women given He Ja Lee who was born and remained female was much much better than she was as was Insook Na-the top two women in Ohio and the USA at the time.

Richard Raskind-a Ivy league varsity men's tennis player became Renee Richards-as I recall, RR wasn't blowing women off the court with a man's level serve (and yes, a varsity male tennis player at an Ivy league tennis team is going to beat top women)

 

[chromium]

I don't know that I agree with this ruling. if it was adults that would be one thing but minors.
What is going to happen is there will be a sexual assault case at some point by a transgender and then there will be a huge high profile lawsuit.
not that that couldn't happen with adults but in a school situation with minors its different to me at least.

you know very well that kind of barbarity can happen in "schools" before this was even a controversy. It could happen to a trans kid who is using his birth gender restroom, just because he's different.

This is likely to have the opposite effect because history shows that as minorities are granted rights, opposition dies down as people realize it's not the end of the world

Conversely, laws targeting minorities, such as in putin-land and north carolina, tends to cause even more overreaction from the bigots (ex: the burning of the lgbt flag in north carolina and the waitress who was insulted as a "tip")

 

[chromium]

That's true. however it would be an easy lawsuit with the complaint being the school allowed a guy who said they wanted to be a girl in a locker room at school with me and they attacked. the school enabled this to happen etc etc..

not since a federal court ruled they MUST allow the trans kid to use the locker room

 

[TurtleDude]

you know very well that kind of barbarity can happen in "schools" before this was even a controversy. It could happen to a trans kid who is using his birth gender restroom, just because he's different.

This is likely to have the opposite effect because history shows that as minorities are granted rights, opposition dies down as people realize it's not the end of the world

Conversely, laws targeting minorities, such as in putin-land and north carolina, tends to cause even more overreaction from the bigots (ex: the burning of the lgbt flag in north carolina and the waitress who was insulted as a "tip")

that is a valid point. I am a big fan of the movie "Glory" and researched the history behind it and its true-when the "colored troops" as they were called back then, bravely took massive casualties trying to take heavily defended Fort Wagner, the Union General officers realized that Black soldiers were brave enough to serve in front line combat-a view that did not exist much at all at the start of the war

The Tuskegee Airmen-officers in fighter planes, proved that Black pilots were brave and skilled -a fact the Germans came to regret. and striking down the idiotic bans on inter-racial marriage didn't cause the world to end either

 

[chromium]

No, there won't be some lawsuit against the school or any large governmental entity even under that scenario. The standards for suing a governmental entity are simply too high for such a tenuous risk to fly as a justification for the lawsuit. Minors being a more protected class versus adults will not change that calculus.

No, the next phase will be an appeal and re-hearing of this case, en banc, with all of the circuit court judges. And then this case, or some similar case if the players from this case are not sympathetic enough for the PR aspect of a Supreme Court case, will probably work its way to the Supreme Court. LGBT rights are expanding. Groups that are trying to prevent that expansion under the guise of protecting any part of the public from the scary LGBT is unlikely to stand the test of time.

only way this ends up in SCOTUS, similar to obergefell, is if there's opposite rulings among the various circuits or a circuit rules against transgender in restrooms. If they all rule in favor of transgender, SCOTUS will decline the case because 1) no party has standing and 2) they are not going to seriously contemplate overturning anti-trans = sex discrimination rulings

 

[Henrin]

So kids that have known this individual their whole lives will just be cool with them in the wrong bathroom? **** everyone else, I want to use your bathroom!

 

[matchlight]

No, there won't be some lawsuit against the school or any large governmental entity even under that scenario. The standards for suing a governmental entity are simply too high for such a tenuous risk to fly as a justification for the lawsuit. Minors being a more protected class versus adults will not change that calculus.

No, the next phase will be an appeal and re-hearing of this case, en banc, with all of the circuit court judges. And then this case, or some similar case if the players from this case are not sympathetic enough for the PR aspect of a Supreme Court case, will probably work its way to the Supreme Court. LGBT rights are expanding. Groups that are trying to prevent that expansion under the guise of protecting any part of the public from the scary LGBT is unlikely to stand the test of time.

Has the Fourth Circuit agreed to hear this case en banc?

 

[danarhea]

Appeals court rules for transgender teen in Virginia bathroom case | News & Observer

The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruling Tuesday in the case of a Virginia transgender teen clarifies how the court is likely to view questions about North Carolina’s widely watched new law, commonly called House Bill 2.
Amid protests, boycotts and heated debate about transgender people and the bathrooms they use, the 4th Circuit judges split 2-1 on whether 16-year-old Gavin Grimm, a high school student in rural Virginia, has the right to use the restroom designated for the gender with which he identifies.

sounds like this might spur a lower federal court to act on the NC law

If this gets to SCOTUS, no precedent will be set with a 4-4 split, but this decision will stand. NC misses Scalia, I am sure.

 

[TurtleDude]

only way this ends up in SCOTUS, similar to obergefell, is if there's opposite rulings among the various circuits or a circuit rules against transgender in restrooms. If they all rule in favor of transgender, SCOTUS will decline the case because 1) no party has standing and 2) they are not going to seriously contemplate overturning anti-trans = sex discrimination rulings

a party could still have standing even if all of the C/A rule the same way the fourth circuit did

if they all rule that way, though, you are most likely correct that the supremes won't hear it