Amnesty?

[rivrrat]

People complaining about illegals doesnt necessarily mean it is not working.

Many wealthier countries often have a shortage of farm labour for example, because the citizens no longer want to do it.

Well maybe we should ship all of our illegals there.

 

[Awesome!]

The way I see it, amnesty is the only realistic choice.

We make amnesty available on the condition that the person applying receive a probationary citizenship where they are required to pay taxes, be seeking employment or currently employed, are conditionally eligible for select social programs on a needed basis, and do not violate the law. Not only do we get productive members of our society, but we get a huge boost in tax revenues as well has not having to spend as much money trying to deport people.

The alternatives are not positive ideas.

We could institute a mass deportation....which would cost probably billions, strip away a workforce most of the Southwest depends on, and end up with the same problem in five years.

We could do what we're doing....which is solving nothing and costing us money.

We could round people up and execute them.....and I shouldnt even have to point out the problems with that .

Maybe an amnesty program if you have no criminal record and are currently working, I would see no reason not to support an amnesty program within that framework. The intention is not to reward criminal behavior but to give people an opportunity that are here being productive. The reason they are here is due to the government's failure to enforce the law, and anyone that can cross a desert, or whatever they do to make it here and survive holding down a job, is someone I would want in my country.

The only condition I would add though is to let laws like the new one in AZ exist to help document illegals, weeding out the criminals who would be deported.

 

[Hoplite]

Maybe an amnesty program if you have no criminal record and are currently working, I would see no reason not to support an amnesty program within that framework.

I would say no serious criminal record and are attempting to work.

The intention is not to reward criminal behavior but to give people an opportunity that are here being productive. The reason they are here is due to the government's failure to enforce the law, and anyone that can cross a desert, or whatever they do to make it here and survive holding down a job, is someone I would want in my country.

Agreed, but I dont think we should cut people out who are TRYING to be productive

The only condition I would add though is to let laws like the new one in AZ exist to help document illegals, weeding out the criminals who would be deported.

I disagree with the law as it seems to almost create a martial law-lite situation. As a citizen, I should be able to walk down the street and not worry that I'm going to be hassled by the police and have to prove that I'm a citizen for no reason.

 

[spud_meister]

Maybe an amnesty program if you have no criminal record and are currently working.

if they're in america illegaly, they've already violated the law

 

[Tucker Case]

if they're in america illegaly, they've already violated the law

These federal laws exist in violation of the constitution, so they are not valid laws.

 

[Wiseone]

Not only no but hell no. If they are caught then they should be jailed for a minimum of 6 months like the law(for first offense) says they can and then deported. They should be banned from tax payer funded services everything from section 8 housing, public housing, welfare, public education, food handlers permits, drivers, ID and anything else. When the police pull anyone over for some traffic offense they should check the legal status.

So no tax funded services except for prisons? Are you aware of the status of California prisons for example? They are all running at 30-50% over capacity. Where are you going to put these people? Build more prisons? Which would cost more in taxes while California has a huge budget crisis? Have you considered that your cure may be worse than the disease here?

 

[jamesrage]

Good luck getting the public to accept that

Arizona has a similar law, In Oklahoma you have to be arrested first before they verify your legal status. Besides that how is this any different than cops checking to see if you have any warrants?

Can you prove they're getting these services now?

Illegal immigrants are issued ID cards in some places - USATODAY.com

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

Yes, because if they're here, they're better off ignorant!

There parents are here illegally, the last thing those people should be able to do is walk freely into a government institution or facility.

You do realize that about 30-40% of the base economy in the Southwest is done by undocumented workers, right?

Somehow I doubt that. This seems more fear mongering by the pro-illegals that tomatoes are going to go to 5 bucks a pound if they have to hire legal workers.

Sweet, we can pay for their room and board for six months and accomplish nothing!

It help in Del Rio Texas under operation streamline.As a matter of fact here is a thread I did on it.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archi...-streamline-model-tighter-border-control.html


Besides that it only cost $21,000-$31,500 a year to keep someone in jail. So if even every illegal was jailed and stuck in jail for a minimum of 6 months it would be 210-315 billion( $10500 and $15750 six months in jail x 20 million illegals) and which is a lot less than the 2.7 trillion required for amnesty.

Amnesty Will Cost U.S. Taxpayers at Least $2.6 Trillion | The Heritage Foundation

Again, good luck getting people to vote for that.

Seeing how a lot of these places verify your credit I somehow doubt it is going to be an extra hassle.

You do realize that day laborer sites are used by MORE than just illegals...

Seeing how those who are here legally can get work at temp services, Labor ready(temp services that pay you the same day you work),employment agencies, honest businesses and the fact that agricultural and seasonal work visas are not self petitioned I serious doubt any of those people are here legally.

Which is illegal...

Not if you amend the Posse Comitatus Act to make an exception for the border.

More taxpayer money wasting for accomplishing nothing.

If you keep jailing those who aid and harbor illegals then most of those people will stop aiding and harboring illegals.

This is getting ridiculous, who is going to PAY for all of these new proposals?

You think amnesty is free plus the additional illegals that will come here wanting their turn at amnesty?





You arent getting any tax money and voters sure as hell arent going to vote for half this stuff.
Pro-illegals wouldn't vote for any of that stuff. But seeing how these solutions would basically nip illegal immigration in the butt by encouraging illegals to go back home on their own I am sure most tax payers would support something like this. Especially seeing how it would not cost that much to look up a government database or to ask for other documents.

You're proposing we turn the US back to the McCarthy era where everyone is paranoid about undocumented immigrants left and right.

If you are an employer you should already be checking to see if the workers you hire are here legally.
Last time I checked it was illegal to aid illegals,I want enforcement of this law on the federal and state level.


Aiding, abetting, harboring, encouraging illegals a felony
Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

I'm sorry but that is not a solution. Hell if it ever got that bad here, I'd go out of my way to help undocumented immigrants.

Then you should be tossed in prison when you do harbor and aid illegals.

 

[jamesrage]

So no tax funded services except for prisons? Are you aware of the status of California prisons for example? They are all running at 30-50% over capacity. Where are you going to put these people?
Build more prisons? Which would cost more in taxes while California has a huge budget crisis? Have you considered that your cure may be worse than the disease here?

Tent cities will work.

 

[Hoplite]

Arizona has a similar law, In Oklahoma you have to be arrested first before they verify your legal status. Besides that how is this any different than cops checking to see if you have any warrants?

Are cops allowed to stop a random person and check them for warrants?

Illegal immigrants are issued ID cards in some places - USATODAY.com

Checking out library books is hardly getting benefits they dont qualify for on the scale of Medicare

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

The majority of that cost is incarceration and its costs recouped by businesses who use undocumented workers. If the state wants it's money, they need to seek out the businesses that are using these workers.

There parents are here illegally, the last thing those people should be able to do is walk freely into a government institution or facility.

In theory, I agree. However practice is rarely so straightforward.

Somehow I doubt that. This seems more fear mongering by the pro-illegals that tomatoes are going to go to 5 bucks a pound if they have to hire legal workers.

As someone who LIVES here and has worked alongside undocumented workers, trust me that when I say the majority of the grunt work is done by undocumented workers I'm not exaggerating. I invite you to come to SoCal and I'll show you around and you can see for yourself.

It help in Del Rio Texas under operation streamline.As a matter of fact here is a thread I did on it.

The link in the OP of your link is no longer functional.

Besides that it only cost $21,000-$31,500 a year to keep someone in jail. So if even every illegal was jailed and stuck in jail for a minimum of 6 months it would be 210-315 billion( $10500 and $15750 six months in jail x 20 million illegals) and which is a lot less than the 2.7 trillion required for amnesty.

Amnesty Will Cost U.S. Taxpayers at Least $2.6 Trillion | The Heritage Foundation

That analysis is for a specific bill and specific plan. Also, it doesn't seem to take into account the large increase in tax revenues or the gains over time that we will receive from having a new large workforce that can now legitimately seek employment and pay taxes to state and federal governments.

Seeing how those who are here legally can get work at temp services, Labor ready(temp services that pay you the same day you work),employment agencies, honest businesses and the fact that agricultural and seasonal work visas are not self petitioned I serious doubt any of those people are here legally.

I've worked as a day laborer, and no temp agencies do not have a ready supply of jobs to just hand out. Especially now, jobs are in short supply. If you dont have an education and any marketable skills, day laborer is one job you can do reliably.

Not if you amend the Posse Comitatus Act to make an exception for the border.

Why on earth would you want to? The entire point of posse comitatus is so that we cant use our military to do jobs that police should be doing. What's the point of even having it if we're going to amend holes through it?

If you keep jailing those who aid and harbor illegals then most of those people will stop aiding and harboring illegals.

Yeah and that worked out SO well for Germany circa 1940. The punishment for smuggling and helping Jews was usually death and people did it anyways. Same with the abolitionist movement in the US, the punishments were pretty severe for aiding runaway slaves...but that didnt really stop people.

You think amnesty is free plus the additional illegals that will come here wanting their turn at amnesty?

I think amnesty is the best of all available options.

Pro-immigrants wouldn't vote for any of that stuff. But seeing how these solutions would basically nip illegal immigration in the butt by encouraging illegals to go back home on their own I am sure most tax payers would support something like this. Especially seeing how it would not cost that much to look up a government database or to ask for other documents.

They'd support it until they saw how much the program would cost and the damage it would do to the economy in the Southwest.

 

[Cephus]

Why is it that proillegals like to pretend that the only solutions are Amnesty,rounding up people or mass deportation?

Because they know that proposing absurd alternatives and then pushing the least absurd of the alternatives is the only way of getting anyone to agree with their side? It happens all the time and is, in and of itself, a logical fallacy.

But who ever said liberals were logical?

 

[Awesome!]

if they're in america illegaly, they've already violated the law

Yes, that is true, but just like Prohibition in the 1920's, it wasn't enforceable because American's like to drink. I would use the same logic to point out that American's like cheap labor. Doesn't make it right that people are breaking the law, but it also doesn't solve the issue especially after many years of both cultures being entertwined without strict enforcement.

 

[Awesome!]

I would say no serious criminal record and are attempting to work.

Agreed, but I dont think we should cut people out who are TRYING to be productive

I disagree with the law as it seems to almost create a martial law-lite situation. As a citizen, I should be able to walk down the street and not worry that I'm going to be hassled by the police and have to prove that I'm a citizen for no reason.

I think I would agree with not cutting out people that are trying to be productive as long as we had all of their data to monitor them.

Regarding the law, I think that as a citizen I should have the right to know that my country's borders are secure. When I say amnesty, I am talking about people that are already here. Maybe a one time gesture to the people that are already here but with some conditions. For people that continue to come over here, I would want laws like AZ's law because it helps keep the criminal element out of this country and doesn't make it comfortable for people who are breaking our laws.

 

[Chuz Life]

Do you think amnesty is a good idea for all of the illegals that are currently in this country? We could tax them and start to know who we have in this country, which may help our efforts to fight illegal immigration, or would that just make 50 million people rush our borders etc.?

Oh hell no.

Never again.

 

[Cephus]

Yes, that is true, but just like Prohibition in the 1920's, it wasn't enforceable because American's like to drink. I would use the same logic to point out that American's like cheap labor. Doesn't make it right that people are breaking the law, but it also doesn't solve the issue especially after many years of both cultures being entertwined without strict enforcement.

It doesn't work that way though. It's like saying we ought to strike down all laws regarding murder because Americans like to murder. Whether or not people like something has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not something ought to be legal. There are plenty of things that at least some people enjoy that are and ought to remain illegal and if people still insist on doing those things, the penalties for getting caught doing them ought to increase exponentially until the individual decides the cost is far too high for whatever personal benefits they might get from doing it.

 

[jamesrage]

Are cops allowed to stop a random person and check them for warrants?

I never said anything about cops stopping random people just to check if they have any warrants.

Checking out library books is hardly getting benefits they dont qualify for on the scale of Medicare

The majority of that cost is incarceration and its costs recouped by businesses who use undocumented workers. If the state wants it's money, they need to seek out the businesses that are using these workers.

Either way it shot down your claim that illegals do not use tax payer funded services.

In theory, I agree. However practice is rarely so straightforward.

Now with states like Arizona and Oklahoma it is more straightforward.

As someone who LIVES here and has worked alongside undocumented workers, trust me that when I say the majority of the grunt work is done by undocumented workers I'm not exaggerating. I invite you to come to SoCal and I'll show you around and you can see for yourself.

For some reason I doubt that the majority of those businesses are that dishonest to hire illegals.
The link in the OP of your link is no longer functional. And if they are then they have no being in business in the first place if they can not afford legal workers, any sensible person wouldn't buy a house or car that they couldn't so why run a business that they couldn't legally afford to run.

That analysis is for a specific bill and specific plan. Also, it doesn't seem to take into account the large increase in tax revenues or the gains over time that we will receive from having a new large workforce that can now legitimately seek employment and pay taxes to state and federal governments.

The analysis doesn't take into account that as a result of the amnesty our 12-20 million illegals can triple in 20 years just like the Reagan Amnesty and the further cost associate with those illegals.
I've worked as a day laborer, and no temp agencies do not have a ready supply of jobs to just hand out. Especially now, jobs are in short supply. If you dont have an education and any marketable skills, day laborer is one job you can do reliably.

Why on earth would you want to?

To militarize the border.

The entire point of posse comitatus is so that we cant use our military to do jobs that police should be doing.

Border security is not something the police should be handling.

What's the point of even having it if we're going to amend holes through it?

Seeing how it was enacted around reconstruction period of our country it seems like it was something to appease the southerners who lost the civil war.

Yeah and that worked out SO well for Germany circa 1940.The punishment for smuggling and helping Jews was usually death and people did it anyways. Same with the abolitionist movement in the US, the punishments were pretty severe for aiding runaway slaves...but that didnt really stop people.

So you are comparing illegal aliens trying to Jews and slaves?

I think amnesty is the best of all available options.

Of course you do, you are a pro-illegal who wants illegal immigration.

They'd support it until they saw how much the program would cost and the damage it would do to the economy in the Southwest.

When Oklahoma enacted its HB1904 aka the tax payer protection act, the pro-illegals in the media did boo hoo we need illegals stories on the news, like Schools might lose money with all the illegals taking their families to other states, some guy got busted for transporting an illegal(which is a felony in Oklahoma) who happened to be a relative or girlfriend and they did the look at what the lack of illegals did to the some of the local stores. Most Oklahomans did not care or buy into the pro-illegal nonsense or care. Luckily the local stations at least had enough sense to do viewer polls regarding illegal immigration so it seems that for now they stopped doing these boo hoo we need illegals sob stories.

 

[mike2810]

As someone who LIVES here and has worked alongside undocumented workers, trust me that when I say the majority of the grunt work is done by undocumented workers I'm not exaggerating. I invite you to come to SoCal and I'll show you around and you can see for yourself.

I don't doubt that many illegals are hard workers. That does not discount the fact they broke Federal Law. In some cases they have broken other laws by using someones SSN thereby are guilty of ID theft. If the Feds won't enforce the law, why shouldn't the State if it chooses to?
Deputies raid Arizona Mills store, arrest 3 employees for ID theft | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Arizona News

I know the farm industry needs the migrant workers. I can see a need for immigration reform. I cannot see giving having open borders, turning our backs to those who enter illegally. First we need to control the borders. Then Congress can look at immigration reform.

 

[Awesome!]

It doesn't work that way though. It's like saying we ought to strike down all laws regarding murder because Americans like to murder. Whether or not people like something has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not something ought to be legal. There are plenty of things that at least some people enjoy that are and ought to remain illegal and if people still insist on doing those things, the penalties for getting caught doing them ought to increase exponentially until the individual decides the cost is far too high for whatever personal benefits they might get from doing it.

You can keep putting the law on a pedestal just like we did with prohibition but the law didn't work then, and the law isn't working now. We need a compromise in order to enforce our laws, not because there is something wrong with the law, it's just it's too late to enforce when we have millions of illegals already here. It like in the 1920's when you ad a law prohibiting drinking alcohol, yet there were 20 speak easy's on every block, just like there are lines of illegals waiting for work in every US City at Home Depot.

 

[jamesrage]

You can keep putting the law on a pedestal just like we did with prohibition but the law didn't work then, and the law isn't working now.

The only reaon why the law isn't working is because the government is not enforcing the law except for a few measly little token raids, inadequate border guards and sending the national guard on the border with not authority to arrest,detain or prevent illegal crossing. There is also a law that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse and minor children and the fact that scum in office keep trying to pass amnesty that helps make illegal immigration worse.

We need a compromise in order to enforce our laws,

No we don't. All we need is for the federal government to actually do its job and for states to follow Arizona and Oklahoma's example.

not because there is something wrong with the law,

How are you going to say the law doesn't work and turn around and say nothing is wrong with it?

it's just it's too late to enforce when we have millions of illegals already here.

It is never too late.

It like in the 1920's when you ad a law prohibiting drinking alcohol, yet there were 20 speak easy's on every block, just like there are lines of illegals waiting for work in every US City at Home Depot.

Contrary to proilllegal belief most Home Depots do not have illegals in the parking lots or in front of the stores seeking illegal employment, a lot of states places have laws against loitering and enforce them. Also in the late 1920s to late 1930s Mexican Repatriation was successful and in 1954 operation wetback was successful.

 

[washunut]

The way I see it, amnesty is the only realistic choice.

We make amnesty available on the condition that the person applying receive a probationary citizenship where they are required to pay taxes, be seeking employment or currently employed, are conditionally eligible for select social programs on a needed basis, and do not violate the law. Not only do we get productive members of our society, but we get a huge boost in tax revenues as well has not having to spend as much money trying to deport people.

The alternatives are not positive ideas.

We could institute a mass deportation....which would cost probably billions, strip away a workforce most of the Southwest depends on, and end up with the same problem in five years.

We could do what we're doing....which is solving nothing and costing us money.

We could round people up and execute them.....and I shouldnt even have to point out the problems with that .

Who said, if you fail to know history you are doomed to repeat it, or something like that. Didn't we do the exact same thing in 1987? That was 3 million, now it is something like 12 million. What will it be in 2030?

We no longer have an abundance of jobs, many unskilled Americans can't find work because illegals work for less than minimum wage.

I would be in favor of work visas for people and industries that have a shortage of Americans to do the work under conditions that the US regulates. Not only are we not protecting our borders, we are not protecting our citizens who can't give campaign contributions to both parties, the poor. American farmers and hotels etc should have to pay people the legal and free market rate. Not be allowed to bring in workers who undercut the market. If the price of carrots or hotel rooms have to go up, that is where the free market should work not on the backs on our unskilled workforce.

 

[Cephus]

You can keep putting the law on a pedestal just like we did with prohibition but the law didn't work then, and the law isn't working now. We need a compromise in order to enforce our laws, not because there is something wrong with the law, it's just it's too late to enforce when we have millions of illegals already here. It like in the 1920's when you ad a law prohibiting drinking alcohol, yet there were 20 speak easy's on every block, just like there are lines of illegals waiting for work in every US City at Home Depot.

What nonsense. The only reason the law isn't working is because it isn't being enforced. The federal government refuses to actually do more than make a token showing of controlling illegal immigration which is why we have more than 4 million new illegals to pay for each and every year. If there was a wholesale deportation effort for illegals, plus going after all those who hire them, plus denying all of them any social services whatsoever, then they would stop coming.

In a recent survey in Mexico, they found that more than 70 million Mexicans said they'd illegally come to the U.S. if they thought they could reasonably get away with it. the second you declare there will be an amnesty, a large number of those will flood across the border so they can get in on it.

The law isn't necessarily easy, it's just important. Too bad you don't comprehend that.

 

[mike2810]

Cephus:
I've been hijacked, until this post I only made two on this thread #7,#41. When I read the quote you cited, I thought when in the heck did I write that. I am pro 1070. If its me, what post number is it. Searching this thread by my name came up with the two I quoted.

Found it. It was posted by Awsome (#42). So have any idea when you quoted it it came up as me?

 

[Cephus]

Cephus:
I've been hijacked, until this post I only made two on this thread #7,#41. When I read the quote you cited, I thought when in the heck did I write that. I am pro 1070. If its me, what post number is it. Searching this thread by my name came up with the two I quoted.

Found it. It was posted by Awsome (#42). So have any idea when you quoted it it came up as me?

Okay, then my response is toward whoever made the original statement then, not toward you. No offense intended.

 

[tryreading]

Who said, if you fail to know history you are doomed to repeat it, or something like that. Didn't we do the exact same thing in 1987? That was 3 million, now it is something like 12 million. What will it be in 2030?

We no longer have an abundance of jobs, many unskilled Americans can't find work because illegals work for less than minimum wage.

I would be in favor of work visas for people and industries that have a shortage of Americans to do the work under conditions that the US regulates. Not only are we not protecting our borders, we are not protecting our citizens who can't give campaign contributions to both parties, the poor. American farmers and hotels etc should have to pay people the legal and free market rate. Not be allowed to bring in workers who undercut the market. If the price of carrots or hotel rooms have to go up, that is where the free market should work not on the backs on our unskilled workforce.

-my bold-

This is history repeating itself too, the job market. We turn our heads to illegal immigration when economic times are good, then we get very legal in harder times. It's pretty hypocritical.

To your other point, if the price of carrots goes up, we want cheaper carrots. That's it. Whoever grows, harvests, processes, and ships carrots better grow, harvest, process and ship them cheaper (just do it, we don't really care how).



But I am against amnesty, unless there are penalties and hoops to jump through. And after, let's actually protect the border this time. Riiight.

 

[Hoplite]

Who said, if you fail to know history you are doomed to repeat it, or something like that. Didn't we do the exact same thing in 1987?

Did we?

We no longer have an abundance of jobs, many unskilled Americans can't find work because illegals work for less than minimum wage.

Why is that the fault of immigrants? Why are the businesses that OFFER these wages not at fault?

I would be in favor of work visas for people and industries that have a shortage of Americans to do the work under conditions that the US regulates. Not only are we not protecting our borders, we are not protecting our citizens who can't give campaign contributions to both parties, the poor. American farmers and hotels etc should have to pay people the legal and free market rate. Not be allowed to bring in workers who undercut the market. If the price of carrots or hotel rooms have to go up, that is where the free market should work not on the backs on our unskilled workforce.

Again, why do you blame the people who are responding to pressure applied by the free market?

 

[Immanent]

I simply cannot see that the furor over illegal immigration is anything but an excuse to vent racist feelings that people would otherwise be ashamed to voice publicly. (In fact, having helped a local legislator with a campaign to assist immigrants, I can say for a fact that the anti-immigrant movement is riddled with white supremacists.)

The attention devoted to this issue is entirely out of proportion to its importance. The good these people do for our society is indisputable; the harm, at least debatable. It's not like sneaking across the border is a violent felony. Most of these people are coming here to work. They do dirty, ill-paid, disrespected jobs that most Americans don't want to do, and they seem to work pretty hard. Most of them are fleeing conditions of poverty unimaginable to most Americans. Conditions that, in fairness, America's own policies helped to create.

It honestly seems to me that these people don't really have much of a choice in the matter. They broke the law because they had to, to provide for themselves and their families. The American businesses who hired these people, on the other hand, are making a profit off of the exploited labor of others. They seem by far the more culpable party. Of course, the anti-immigrant crowd says they want to go after the businesses too - and then they go right back to spending 95% of the time bashing the immigrants themselves.

Seriously, what is wrong with people? Illegal immigrants didn't cause our country's problems. Big business and the Republican Party caused our country's problems.