Amnesty?

[mike2810]

I simply cannot see that the furor over illegal immigration is anything but an excuse to vent racist feelings that people would otherwise be ashamed to voice publicly. (In fact, having helped a local legislator with a campaign to assist immigrants, I can say for a fact that the anti-immigrant movement is riddled with white supremacists.)

The attention devoted to this issue is entirely out of proportion to its importance. The good these people do for our society is indisputable; the harm, at least debatable. It's not like sneaking across the border is a violent felony. Most of these people are coming here to work. They do dirty, ill-paid, disrespected jobs that most Americans don't want to do, and they seem to work pretty hard. Most of them are fleeing conditions of poverty unimaginable to most Americans. Conditions that, in fairness, America's own policies helped to create.

It honestly seems to me that these people don't really have much of a choice in the matter. They broke the law because they had to, to provide for themselves and their families. The American businesses who hired these people, on the other hand, are making a profit off of the exploited labor of others. They seem by far the more culpable party. Of course, the anti-immigrant crowd says they want to go after the businesses too - and then they go right back to spending 95% of the time bashing the immigrants themselves.

Seriously, what is wrong with people? Illegal immigrants didn't cause our country's problems. Big business and the Republican Party caused our country's problems.

What a bunch of BS. You lost me when you played the race card. I am not a white supremacist, but I am against open borders, illegal entry into the US. If the illegals are so broke, how can some pay thousands of dollars to be smuggled into the US? Why does AZ have drop houses that when the police rescue the illegals they state they paid thousands to get into the US and being held for more money?
I agree the US needs migrant farm workers that come into the US legally on a permanent or temporary basis. Do we need reform, yes. Do we need blanket amnesty, no. Do we need secured borders, yes. To blame the issue on one political party shows your bias. To use your phrase, what is wrong with people? Come visit some of the hard working ranchers along the border and see how thier life is affected by the crossings of illegals. One last question for your you, Do you live in a border State (AZ, NM, Texas?)

 

[Awesome!]

What nonsense. The only reason the law isn't working is because it isn't being enforced. The federal government refuses to actually do more than make a token showing of controlling illegal immigration which is why we have more than 4 million new illegals to pay for each and every year. If there was a wholesale deportation effort for illegals, plus going after all those who hire them, plus denying all of them any social services whatsoever, then they would stop coming.

In a recent survey in Mexico, they found that more than 70 million Mexicans said they'd illegally come to the U.S. if they thought they could reasonably get away with it. the second you declare there will be an amnesty, a large number of those will flood across the border so they can get in on it.

The law isn't necessarily easy, it's just important. Too bad you don't comprehend that.

I agree the law is not being enforced, no can it be enforced now with so many illegals already here with all of the political support and working the system. It's just like prohibition telling a nation of drinkers that they will have to be dry now. We can't just do a mass deportation now as people have created new lives and they will not just go quiently they could probably shut down the economy, riot etc. etc. I mean..would you want to go back to Mexico, to be paid little to nothing after you have spent many years in the US. We have our federal government to thank for this mess and compromise I think is the only way now. We can give amnesty in my opinion, document all of the people that are here and then start making real efforts to enforce our laws.

 

[mike2810]

I agree the law is not being enforced, no can it be enforced now with so many illegals already here with all of the political support and working the system. It's just like prohibition telling a nation of drinkers that they will have to be dry now. We can't just do a mass deportation now as people have created new lives and they will not just go quiently they could probably shut down the economy, riot etc. etc. I mean..would you want to go back to Mexico, to be paid little to nothing after you have spent many years in the US. We have our federal government to thank for this mess and compromise I think is the only way now. We can give amnesty in my opinion, document all of the people that are here and then start making real efforts to enforce our laws.

If amnesty is to be given again. Would you support a penalty (financial and community service) proportionante to how long the illgals have been in the US? Before I could support any amnesty, the borders have to be secured and the influx of illegals stopped. If not, what do we do with the next million of illegals?

 

[jamesrage]

I agree the law is not being enforced, no can it be enforced now with so many illegals already here with all of the political support and working the system.

The law can be enforced. The fact we have scum in office who wish to do nothing about it just shows that states must do it or that we must throw out the scum in office who toss the salad of illegals. Plus I am pretty sure the prohibition was strictly enforced, while illegal immigration gets the token enforcements.

It's just like prohibition telling a nation of drinkers that they will have to be dry now.

No its not.The vast majority of businesses are honest and therefor do not hire illegals.

We can't just do a mass deportation

Your right. We can also do what Arizona and Oklahoma have done which is create and enforce laws that entice illegals to leave. Illegals will not want to stay if they can't get jobs, use tax payer funded services and if they are pulled over for a traffic offense or arrested they will be deported. We also ban financial institutions such as banks and money wiring services from doing business with illegals, ban those who sell cars from selling to those without a valid state driver's license, Ban property from selling renting,leasing,lending or giving property to illegals and we can require that public schools verify the legal status of parents wishing to enroll their kids into school.

now as people have created new lives and they will not just go quiently they could probably shut down the economy, riot etc. etc.

Those lives they created here should have never happened. So I could care less if they do not go quietly.Causing a ruckus will just make it easier for the authorities to find them.

We have our federal government to thank for this mess and compromise I think is the only way now. We can give amnesty in my opinion, document all of the people that are here and then start making real efforts to enforce our laws.

A compromise was tried in the mid 1980s instead of another Operation Wetback or Mexican repatriation. The result was 3 million illegals were legalized, practically no enforcement and 20 plus years later with have 12-20 million illegals in this country. Why on earth should we do another so called compromise when the government has shown that it does not intend to keep its word? If the government intended to secure the border and crack down on illegal it would have done so years ago.

 

[jamesrage]

If amnesty is to be given again. Would you support a penalty (financial and community service) proportionante to how long the illgals have been in the US? Before I could support any amnesty, the borders have to be secured and the influx of illegals stopped. If not, what do we do with the next million of illegals?

The only way I could see that happening is if they intend to later yank the enforcement once the illegals have been legalized.Such as create a expiration date on the enforcement or later deny funds for border patrol and ICE. And there is the fact regardless there will be more people sneaking into the country to get their shot at amnesty, but instead of crossing a guarded border they will get tourist visas or some other kind of visa to basically get us to let them into the country. So I do not want a amnesty at all. Besides that we do not need amnesty. States taking Arizona and Oklahoma's lead should mean another nail in Amnesty's coffin, heck if the federal government simply did its job instead of just the once in a while token raids illegals would leave.

 

[Cephus]

I agree the law is not being enforced, no can it be enforced now with so many illegals already here with all of the political support and working the system. It's just like prohibition telling a nation of drinkers that they will have to be dry now. We can't just do a mass deportation now as people have created new lives and they will not just go quiently they could probably shut down the economy, riot etc. etc. I mean..would you want to go back to Mexico, to be paid little to nothing after you have spent many years in the US. We have our federal government to thank for this mess and compromise I think is the only way now. We can give amnesty in my opinion, document all of the people that are here and then start making real efforts to enforce our laws.

Of course it can be enforced. When you find an illegal, you deport them and make sure they can never come back. You heavily fine employers to the point that they either never hire another illegal or they are put entirely out of business. Do this every time. It doesn't matter if there is one illegal alien or a million, that's how enforcing the law works. I really don't give a damn what they want. I care about the law. We said the exact same thing back in the 80s. Give them amnesty, then start enforcing the law! It was a disaster. Never again.

 

[mike2810]

The only way I could see that happening is if they intend to later yank the enforcement once the illegals have been legalized.Such as create a expiration date on the enforcement or later deny funds for border patrol and ICE. And there is the fact regardless there will be more people sneaking into the country to get their shot at amnesty, but instead of crossing a guarded border they will get tourist visas or some other kind of visa to basically get us to let them into the country. So I do not want a amnesty at all. Besides that we do not need amnesty. States taking Arizona and Oklahoma's lead should mean another nail in Amnesty's coffin, heck if the federal government simply did its job instead of just the once in a while token raids illegals would leave.

I agree. I don't want amnesty. I don't know if politically it can be stopped. Amnesty is a slap at those who follow our laws and have immigrated to the US legally. I am proud and support what my state (AZ) is doing to fight the illegal mess. The Feds need to do their job.

 

[Cephus]

I agree. I don't want amnesty. I don't know if politically it can be stopped. Amnesty is a slap at those who follow our laws and have immigrated to the US legally. I am proud and support what my state (AZ) is doing to fight the illegal mess. The Feds need to do their job.

Especially since, in a recent CNN poll, 85% of Americans polled supported the Arizona law and 98% said they wanted illegal immigration stopped. But when you have a government that doesn't care what the people who put them in office want, what can you expect?

 

[Immanent]

Getting a little defensive about your racial attitudes, it seems. Struck a nerve, did I? Ok, you're not racist - you just think that a defenseless minority who happen to be of Hispanic extraction caused all our country's problems. But you're not racist.

The fact that you're willing to believe arrant nonsense, probably spread by talk-radio demagogues, about illegal immigrants 'paying thousands of dollars' to enter our country just proves that you are completely out of touch with reality.

As for my 'bias' - yes, reality has a well-known liberal bias. If I blame the Republicans for our country's problems, it is because my brain and senses are in full working order.

 

[Psychoclown]

The solution to illegal immigration is simple. We don't need to make massive deportations or any other silly things some people are saying. We need to remove the incentive to come here illegally. Absoultely no government services for illegals - no welfare, no unemployment, no public school for their children, no section 8 housing, nothing! And strict penalties and enforcement for companies who hire illegals. Make it not worth the risk to hire illegals and businesses will stop doing it. Without a prospect for jobs or the government safety net, where is the motivation to come here?

I'm also in favor of cost effective measures for enforcement. Allowing police to verify your status as a legal resident upon making lawful contact (I would be OK with an exception of reporting a crime. I rather we catch a thief or a murderer than an illegal immigrant). If a wall would be effective and cost efficient, than build it. If not, find other methods that would be.

As for anchor babies, I don't have a problem with that policy, but I wouldn't let it stop me from deporting the parents if they are here illegally. If they can't find someone here to take care of their kids, well guess what? Little junior has to go with them and he can return when he turns 18 and picks his US citizenship over the citizenship of the place where his parents came from.

Once we have control of the flow of illegal immigrants, we can than begin to look at upping our legal immigration quotas. I have no problems with immigrants. Immigrants built this country. But they built a country based on laws. And the laws regarding immigration are in our own national self interest. America cannot take in an unlimited influx of immigrants, especially uneducated, unskilled laborers, which is what most illegal immigrants are.

All that said, I'd be willing to accept a pathway to citizenship for those here, if that is what it took to get the measures I just outlined passed. With the following conditions: the persons in question are employed, have a clean criminal record, pay a reasonable fine, and can speak fluent English.

 

[Psychoclown]

I simply cannot see that the furor over illegal immigration is anything but an excuse to vent racist feelings that people would otherwise be ashamed to voice publicly. (In fact, having helped a local legislator with a campaign to assist immigrants, I can say for a fact that the anti-immigrant movement is riddled with white supremacists.)

The attention devoted to this issue is entirely out of proportion to its importance. The good these people do for our society is indisputable; the harm, at least debatable. It's not like sneaking across the border is a violent felony. Most of these people are coming here to work. They do dirty, ill-paid, disrespected jobs that most Americans don't want to do, and they seem to work pretty hard. Most of them are fleeing conditions of poverty unimaginable to most Americans. Conditions that, in fairness, America's own policies helped to create.

It honestly seems to me that these people don't really have much of a choice in the matter. They broke the law because they had to, to provide for themselves and their families. The American businesses who hired these people, on the other hand, are making a profit off of the exploited labor of others. They seem by far the more culpable party. Of course, the anti-immigrant crowd says they want to go after the businesses too - and then they go right back to spending 95% of the time bashing the immigrants themselves.

Seriously, what is wrong with people? Illegal immigrants didn't cause our country's problems. Big business and the Republican Party caused our country's problems.

I know its still early in the day, but I'm going to make the call. You win for most idiotic partisan rant of the day. Bonus points for playing the race card, slamming Republicans, and big business all in one post.

 

[Hoplite]

I simply cannot see that the furor over illegal immigration is anything but an excuse to vent racist feelings that people would otherwise be ashamed to voice publicly. (In fact, having helped a local legislator with a campaign to assist immigrants, I can say for a fact that the anti-immigrant movement is riddled with white supremacists.)

To be completely fair, I dont think it's right to say that the anti-immigration movement is based in racism.

Im sure that's part of it for some people, but a lot of it is that people cant see past "illegal". They feel like undocumented immigrants are "stealing" from them and there are politicians who have made a career hyping up the damage done to the country by undocumented immigrants. People buy that because they want a scapegoat when their economic situation goes south and its easy to blame a group that doesnt have any real advocates.

I know its still early in the day, but I'm going to make the call. You win for most idiotic partisan rant of the day. Bonus points for playing the race card, slamming Republicans, and big business all in one post.

To be EQUALLY fair, Immanent does have a point. A lot of what fuels immigration are the businesses whose owners then decry illegal immigration and the loose regulations on labor and enforcement have the Republicans to thank

 

[mike2810]

Getting a little defensive about your racial attitudes, it seems. Struck a nerve, did I? Ok, you're not racist - you just think that a defenseless minority who happen to be of Hispanic extraction caused all our country's problems. But you're not racist.

The fact that you're willing to believe arrant nonsense, probably spread by talk-radio demagogues, about illegal immigrants 'paying thousands of dollars' to enter our country just proves that you are completely out of touch with reality.

As for my 'bias' - yes, reality has a well-known liberal bias. If I blame the Republicans for our country's problems, it is because my brain and senses are in full working order.

I live in AZ. Do you? What BS. It is in the news almost weekly when drop houses are raided by police. The illegals tell of paying the dollars to coyotes. So guess you support illegals who lie. Unless you live in a border State , it is you who do not know. Where do you get your info from?

In other threads I have stated my opinion that business needs to be held accountable also for the hiring of illegals. Makes me wonder why the AG Halder is looking at not SB1070, but a prior law AZ past two years ago that makes verification of legal status part of the employment in Az, and makes it a crime to hire illegals. So AZ wants to go after the business side, and Obama is saying wait a minute. As I have said in the thread. Please send your money to AZ to support the illegals, since you seem to want to support them.

 

[Hoplite]

I live in AZ. Do you? What BS. It is in the news almost weekly when drop houses are raided by police. The illegals tell of paying the dollars to coyotes. So guess you support illegals who lie. Unless you live in a border State , it is you who do not know. Where do you get your info from?

Im not seeing how several thousand dollars paid to coyotes makes a difference. It's not like you can buy your way into the US legally with that kind of money and it does you no good if you have to eat through it all trying to work.

 

[mike2810]

Im not seeing how several thousand dollars paid to coyotes makes a difference. It's not like you can buy your way into the US legally with that kind of money and it does you no good if you have to eat through it all trying to work.

the point is that some say the illegals are flat broke. Not true. Not sure what the exchange rate is but is it not more expensive to live in the US than Mexico?

 

[Hoplite]

the point is that some say the illegals are flat broke. Not true.

For the most part, it is.

Not sure what the exchange rate is but is it not more expensive to live in the US than Mexico?

Absolutely. The problem is there are problems finding good paying jobs in Mexico. Cheap is too expensive if you cant find a job that pays worth a damn.

 

[Immanent]

I'm sorry, sir, but I really have to call you out on this. The things you've been saying are simply nonsensical.

For one thing, immigrants do not pay coyotes 'thousands of dollars'. They and their families work for years, scrimping and saving and doing without vital necessities, to be able to afford the coyotes' fee, which you will find is significantly less than 'thousands' of dollars, but still incredibly steep for these people.

Nobody pays 'thousands of dollars' to leave behind their home, their family and friends, their nation and culture, all to live in a foreign country filled with mean, ignorant rednecks who hate them, so that they can scrub toilets at Taco Bell for a living. What exactly do you think these people are doing? They're working! They're working minimum wage jobs that Americans don't want to do. They're building our country.

It's more expensive to live in the US than in Mexico? Only for American tourists, who have more money to begin with and who benefit from the exchange rate! Not if you are dirt-poor and paid a peso a day, it's not. Do you have any comprehension of what 3rd world poverty is like? Any idea at all?

You're insane. You're simply out of you're mind, and you're incredibly offensive to boot.

And btw, I live in NY. We have lots of Hispanic immigrants here, legal and illegal. They work hard. They pay into Social Security and don't collect. And they don't deserve to be blamed for our nation's problems by wicked, bigoted people who don't want to address the real causes of the nation's problems: the workings of the capitalist system, and the policies of the Republican Party.

The only difference I can see between growing up in NY and growing up in Arizona is that I wasn't raised in a backward, redneck atmosphere, in a state that refused to celebrate Martin Luther King Day with the rest of the nation, and believes that states have rights but people in those states have none. I don't blame brown people for all my problems, that's the difference.

But since it's quite clear that one cannot have a rational conversation with a childlike intellect who stubbornly insists that the sky is green and the grass is blue, that black is white and up is down and right is wrong, since one cannot have any kind of intelligible conversation with someone who flatly denies facts, I cannot see this conversation progressing anywhere productive. Please, I beg you, read a book.

the point is that some say the illegals are flat broke. Not true. Not sure what the exchange rate is but is it not more expensive to live in the US than Mexico?

 

[Immanent]

I love it!

I'm playing the race card, not the Republicans who blame brown people for our nation's problems!

I'm partisan, not the Republicans who blame Democrats for being 'soft on immigration', despite the fact that it's presumably mostly Republican businessmen who are hiring these illegal immigrants.

I'm idiotic, despite the fact that the good Mr. - Psychoclown? - has made no effort at any kind of logical argument, and seems content to malign me for being anti-Republican. Last I checked, I had the same 1st Amendment right to hate Republicans as they have to hate me. And they do, evidently!

Please, get a life, get a clue, read a book.

 

[mike2810]

Im:
You answered my question. You live In New York. Good Grief.
My point is that Mexico is cheaper to live in than the US.
Guess NY doesn't have access to our news in Arizona. Guess they all lie when they report the findings.
So sorry you have no first hand experience with life in a border state. I have not called you any names other than to say your posts are full of BS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_smuggling
"People smuggling between the United States and Mexico is a booming business that, as of 2003, garnered over $5 billion a year"

http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/alien-smuggling.html
There have even been cases where the coyotes have killed the illegal immigrants because they could not afford to render payment for the service provided. Illegal immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border can expect to pay anywhere from $1,500 to $3,500, sometimes less or more depending on the smuggler.

Took me 30 seconds to find these two. Want more proof.

If your illegals are paying taxes and SS. Then whos SSN are they using. Seems they broke another law in ID theft.

Care to refute the facts I linked to or is that too much for your NY state of mind

In closing, nowhere have I called you a lib or other names. You brought up redneck because I live in AZ? To live up to your imagination, a country boy will survive. I wll call you very niave. Try getting out of the city sometime.

 

[mike2810]

IMM
April 2010 Phoenix, AZ

Police Rescue Teens, Woman From Drop House - Phoenix News Story - KPHO Phoenix

"Police said one of the illegal immigrants who was held inside the house escaped, then ran and got help. Officers found 25 illegal immigrants being held inside the home -- including a woman and two teenagers. One man was passed out and needed medical attention, police said.

The SWAT team suited up in full gear was deployed, and a police helicopter was seen circling overhead, using a spotlight to search the neighborhood.

Jon Gonyea said he lives next door and said his roommate was home at the time when the raid was conducted.

“He said an undercover officer approached the door and told him to stay to the east of the house. He told me SWAT had shown up and he said that he heard them tell the person inside to drop the gun,” said Gonyea."

Investigators said they believe the smugglers were paid $3,000 a person and brought the illegal immigrants over the border Sunday."

Any comment now about me not knowing about coyote smugglers?

 

[cholla]

I'm sorry, sir, but I really have to call you out on this. The things you've been saying are simply nonsensical.

For one thing, immigrants do not pay coyotes 'thousands of dollars'. They and their families work for years, scrimping and saving and doing without vital necessities, to be able to afford the coyotes' fee, which you will find is significantly less than 'thousands' of dollars, but still incredibly steep for these people.

Nobody pays 'thousands of dollars' to leave behind their home, their family and friends, their nation and culture, all to live in a foreign country filled with mean, ignorant rednecks who hate them, so that they can scrub toilets at Taco Bell for a living. What exactly do you think these people are doing? They're working! They're working minimum wage jobs that Americans don't want to do. They're building our country.

It's more expensive to live in the US than in Mexico? Only for American tourists, who have more money to begin with and who benefit from the exchange rate! Not if you are dirt-poor and paid a peso a day, it's not. Do you have any comprehension of what 3rd world poverty is like? Any idea at all?

You're insane. You're simply out of you're mind, and you're incredibly offensive to boot.

And btw, I live in NY. We have lots of Hispanic immigrants here, legal and illegal. They work hard. They pay into Social Security and don't collect. And they don't deserve to be blamed for our nation's problems by wicked, bigoted people who don't want to address the real causes of the nation's problems: the workings of the capitalist system, and the policies of the Republican Party.

The only difference I can see between growing up in NY and growing up in Arizona is that I wasn't raised in a backward, redneck atmosphere, in a state that refused to celebrate Martin Luther King Day with the rest of the nation, and believes that states have rights but people in those states have none. I don't blame brown people for all my problems, that's the difference.

But since it's quite clear that one cannot have a rational conversation with a childlike intellect who stubbornly insists that the sky is green and the grass is blue, that black is white and up is down and right is wrong, since one cannot have any kind of intelligible conversation with someone who flatly denies facts, I cannot see this conversation progressing anywhere productive. Please, I beg you, read a book.

What an ignorant, insulting rant, without one credible argument or link to back it up. Must be one of the best I have seen here. Good job libby.

 

[Awesome!]

If amnesty is to be given again. Would you support a penalty (financial and community service) proportionante to how long the illgals have been in the US? Before I could support any amnesty, the borders have to be secured and the influx of illegals stopped. If not, what do we do with the next million of illegals?

I agree, what do we do with the next million illegals. Right now we are currently doing nothing substantial. We tried in CA with Prop 187, but it was shot down, and makes sense when you already have millions of illegals here. I wouldn't support penalties to illegals who are here, I would consider amnesty with conditions in order to document who we have in this country to tax them and for national security reasons, enact laws like the state of AZ and beef up the border.

 

[mike2810]

I agree, what do we do with the next million illegals. Right now we are currently doing nothing substantial. We tried in CA with Prop 187, but it was shot down, and makes sense when you already have millions of illegals here. I wouldn't support penalties to illegals who are here, I would consider amnesty with conditions in order to document who we have in this country to tax them and for national security reasons, enact laws like the state of AZ and beef up the border.

If the illegals are not penalized, is that not a slap to those who are trying to come in legally? I also would support deporting some illegals, especially if caught for a crime.

 

[Psychoclown]

I love it!

I'm playing the race card, not the Republicans who blame brown people for our nation's problems!

Not all people concerned about illegal immigration are Republicans and no one is blaming illegal immigrants (let alone "brown people") for all of our nation's problems. But certainly the nearly unrestricted flow of uneducated, unskilled laborers into an economy that has only so many jobs to go around is a concern. And then there is also the issue of security. The thought that just about ANYONE could cross our border undetected in unsettling.

You play the race card by claiming that all people who are concerned about unchecked illegal immigration are thinly veiled racists. Next you'll say people who don't like Obama are closet racists. ::roll

I'm partisan, not the Republicans who blame Democrats for being 'soft on immigration', despite the fact that it's presumably mostly Republican businessmen who are hiring these illegal immigrants.[/quote]

Republicans and Democrats have both blown it when it comes to immigration. Reagan signed the amnesty bill. McCain and Bush tried to peddle what was essentially another amnesty bill without even addressing concerns of future enforcement. Obama and the Democrats are in their second year of controlling the government and they haven't done a thing either. I think both parties suck on this issue, as they frequently do on many issues.

You're a partisan because you only blame Republicans, when both parties have an equal share of blame in this mess.

I'm idiotic, despite the fact that the good Mr. - Psychoclown? - has made no effort at any kind of logical argument, and seems content to malign me for being anti-Republican.

I figured since you didn't bother to make a logical argument and just slandered those who disagree with you, you wouldn't mind if I did the same.

Last I checked, I had the same 1st Amendment right to hate Republicans as they have to hate me. And they do, evidently!

We all have a right to be idiots, it doesn't mean the rest of us have to tolerate it in silence. As for Republicans hating you, I have no idea since I'm not a Republican. I can't stand mindless partisan hacks though.

And were you seriously trying to discredit me by mentioning my username?

 

[Awesome!]

If the illegals are not penalized, is that not a slap to those who are trying to come in legally? I also would support deporting some illegals, especially if caught for a crime.

Yes it is a slap in the face, but I just don't any political will to enforce the law...