Americans - would you support single-payer?

[Superfly]

PS: I got nothin but love for the VA, they have saved Karen's life eight times.

View attachment 67484644

Same. I’ve never had much issue with the VA except once in Alabama.

 

[Pyrite]

Just a temperature check on how Americans feel about single-payer universal health care.

Just voted yes.

 

[craig]

They're all two-tiered systems. It's a way for wealthy politicians to keep themselves and their family out of the shitty public system, just like they avoid public housing, public schools, public transportation, etc.

The wealthy will always be able buy all the care they want if they need it or not. The problem is that the health care monopoly has raised the cost of health care so high that only rich can afford it without government support.

 

[Superfly]

Of course. Universal means universal. The extremely caring politicians who will impose this scheme believe everyone has the right to healthcare.

Not the flex you think it is.

 

[cpwill]

I can't deny that there is some really excellent care in the United States - that much is still true. I think the complaints come from the distribution of care, and how uneven the accessibility is. So in some specific instances, the United State is superior, no doubt, but across the board, I think other countries' systems provide more bang for the buck.

A lot of the international rankings take equity of results into account, but, I have always had a problem with it. :-/ It strikes me that, if you have two systems that otherwise score completely equal.... but then one country develops a cure for a previously fatal condition, but can only give it to half of the victims.... then counting that country as suddenly worse off then the other (with a 100% death rate) is poor measurement.

The U.S. payment method for healthcare is terrible - we pay far, far too much, mostly because we are already socializing costs, but, without hard caps. However, for that (much greater amount of money), we also do get relatively excellent qualitative care.

In any case, I am glad your mother survived her treatment. She did right by getting the care she got here.

me too, man. I was deployed when we found out. It was a rough day. thank you.

 

[Hamish Howl]

No, to deal with the fallout.

Well, yeah, it's not like Americans will change their habits for any reason. Our current system is awful if you're not at least upper middle class, and people still eat too much, smoke, drink too much, etc.

But that's where one of America's real neurosis kicks in: The puritan ethic. If you don't pay for your sins - the observer is somehow exempt from this - then Jesus won't sing the national anthem and your children will turn Gay from watching The View.

 

[Greenbeard]

They're all two-tiered systems. It's a way for wealthy politicians to keep themselves and their family out of the shitty public system, just like they avoid public housing, public schools, public transportation, etc.

How many tiers would you say our current system has?

 

[Hamish Howl]

Of course. Universal means universal. The extremely caring politicians who will impose this scheme believe everyone has the right to healthcare.

Those bastards!

 

[Hamish Howl]

I've evolved on this over the years and, at least to me, it comes down to a basic flaw in the construct of our current system.

Why in THEE HELL would we demand that businesses which have nothing to do with health care become administrative experts on how to best distribute health care services to their employees?

Because the people who do it NOW are the same people who deny coverage because they know most people can't/won't fight it.

 

[cpwill]

It’s empirical reality

A multidimensional framework for rating health system performance and sustainability: A nine plus one ranking system - PMC

Health Care provision in terms of prevention, detection and treatment is primarily dependent on the quality of the hosting Health System. In its health report 2000, the WHO's attempt to assess and rank health systems’ quality Worldwide was heavily ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

it is not, though, yes, your study here is correct that Medicare and Medicaid as currently constructed are utterly unsustainable.

 

[multivita-man]

Your guess is ridiculous. Maybe you shouldn’t be guessing, and instead, basing your argument on facts and data.

Well I think it's interrelated. We live an unhealthy hyper-industrialized and commercialized existence. Our uneven distribution of our systems gains and profits is the cause, which manifests itself in many different ways, ranging from food deserts to healthcare access deserts.

 

[Greenbeard]

it is not, though, yes, your study here is correct that Medicare and Medicaid as currently constructed are utterly unsustainable.

Real per beneficiary Medicare spending hasn't risen in 13 years! I know something happened about 13 years ago but I'm forgetting what it was.

 

[Absentglare]

Of those I am familiar with, it is perhaps the most. I have been given to understand Switzerland has a not-terribly blended system

, but, none of those nations are the U.S., with the U.S. government, or the U.S. population. A system that works very well for a small, homogenous population that generally eats healthy and exercises, has a relatively efficient and non-bloated/corrupt government, and doesn't get millions of people from mostly poorer nations flooding in both legally and illegally every year..... may work very poorly here.



Even among Bernie Sanders supporters, a majority are unwilling to pay additional taxes in order to have single-payer healthcare.

The survey question is if they’re willing to pay more, which is wildly misleading. We’d save several % of GDP every single year. The quality of care argument relies on doctors and equipment fleeing the country, which is ridiculous.

 

[Absentglare]

Oh, I've definitely got ideas on how we can go about addressing the deep structural flaws in our medical system. It's just they are largely built on the American experience.

It’s funny because siphoning trillions of dollars to a bunch of engorged parasite middlemen could be considered part of the “American experience”.

 

[multivita-man]

People survive cancers in other countries, too, and they don't have to worry about losing their life savings or their residence.

To follow up on this idea, one thing I notice a lot in the United States is the It's not my problem mentality. If I can afford cancer treatment, the system is fine. What it really means is, The system works for me and I'm afraid that if the government changes, it may not work for me anymore. And the truth is, I can kind of understand that fear. I think we have a values problem here. People fear the government will **** up healthcare because we have one half of the the political system that is dedicated to making sure that a public option can't succeed. If we have 75% of the population telling Congress, **** you, make it succeed, I think we'd have different results. I think we'd have a system that works.

 

[aociswundumho]

Those bastards!

Exactly. It's ridiculous to believe that the American left is going to let people die in the street based on their immigration status.

 

[ttwtt78640]

For anyone who wants more details below is a summary of the system in Canada.

The Five Principles of Medicare | School of Health Policy & Management

www.yorku.ca

Thank you for that link.

No mention of any deductibles or copays (except for room and board in long-term care facilities) was included. Does that mean there are none and prescription drugs are also at no out-of-pocket costs?

Of course, no mention of how this was funded was included either. Have no idea what the federal and/or province taxes are like in Canada.

 

[cpwill]

Real per beneficiary Medicare spending hasn't risen in 13 years!

interesting.



I'm not finding an easily digestible source quickly - do you have any on hand?

I know something happened about 13 years ago but I'm forgetting what it was.

I believe we've talked about this before. The cost curve began bending after 2006, prior to 2013.

There was some kind of large structural event in Medicare in 2006. Do you recall the specifics?

 

[rahl]

it is not, though, yes, your study here is correct that Medicare and Medicaid as currently constructed are utterly unsustainable.

I just gave you a peer reviewed study showing single payer is superior to our system and provided better care at a fraction of the cost lol

 

[Superfly]

Exactly. It's ridiculous to believe that the American left is going to let people die in the street based on their immigration status.

Because the American left wouldn’t.

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act won’t allow it, either.

 

[cpwill]

I just gave you a peer reviewed study showing single payer is superior to our system lol

....did you read the abstract?

 

[ttwtt78640]

You seem confused. The thread title and poll question does not mention universal care. It only mentions single payor.

OK, since the US has (some) single-payer programs are you just fine with things as they are now? If not, then you must be advocating for something more universal.

 

[EdwinWillers]

So your main problem is that you hate the federal government.

Another "So..." logical fallacy. I don't "hate" the federal government at all.

What counts as the general welfare is decided by the legislature.

And the sky is blue and water is wet. What made you think I don't know who defines "general welfare?"

Indeed, I even acknowledged that's what they do - in having butchered the meaning of it as they have all these years.

But I'm a proponent of the strict enumeration of Congress' powers - as argued by Madison in Federalist #41 - who actually argued AGAINST those who thought the term "general welfare" too general and gave Congress "an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare."

Madison wrote:
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare.

But Madison followed this with his argument that had there been no enumeration of powers (such as we have explicitly enumerated in Article 8), such an argument as was leveled above constituted a "miscontruction" of the article and poor justification for thinking that would ever happen:
No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases.

Madison's argument prevailed; unfortunately, he was proven utterly wrong and the very thing the objectors feared has indeed transpired - the ongoing interpretation of what "general welfare" means by the legislature to whatever whim they see fit to apply it and thus expand their power.

 

[rahl]

....did you read the abstract?

I read the study lol

 

[Greenbeard]

interesting.

Sure.

View attachment 67484655

I'm not finding an easily digestible source quickly - do you have any on hand?

A Huge Threat to the U.S. Budget Has Receded. And No One Is Sure Why. (Published 2023)

Instead of growing and growing, as it always had, spending per Medicare beneficiary has nearly leveled off over more than a decade.

www.nytimes.com

I believe we've talked about this before. The cost curve began bending after 2006, prior to 2013.

You frequently claim that but the facts speak for themselves:

Or just look at the national health spending data that came out this month: health care costs 17.3% of GDP (as of 2022). Back in 2010 it cost...17.2% of GDP. The cost curve has done more than bend, it's been flat since 2010.

There was some kind of large structural event in Medicare in 2006. Do you recall the specifics?

If your claim is that expanding Medicare benefits is what halted the rise in per beneficiary Medicare costs, that would be an excellent argument for the OP.