Americans - would you support single-payer?

[Peter]

By the rating criteria that puts quality at #3

For me, quality is the #1 priority.

Americans are as a whole obese and lazy

=============

"There are limited comparable measures of quality available. Among measures we can compare, the U.S. performs similarly or better than its peers for when intensive, acute care is required, such as for 30-day mortality after heart attack orstroke admissions".

How does the quality of the U.S. health system compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

Across a wide variety of measures of quality, the U.S. health system appears to perform worse than peer nations on more indicators than it does better. Across a wide variety of measures of quality, the U.S. health system appears to perform worse than peer nations on more indicators than it does...

www.healthsystemtracker.org

Quality doesn't matter if you can't afford to get treated.
I could live next door to a star trek style medical bay that can cure pretty much anything within seconds but if it costs £1m per treatment then it's pointless to me.

 

[trouble13]

Right now, each payer negotiates independently with each healthcare provider. This imposes administrative costs on both insurers (the payers) and the healthcare providers. We end up paying for administrators on both sides of that equation. You’re paying to go to a hospital that has additional administrative costs for every insurer they support. Those costs are passed on to you, indirectly but passed on nonetheless.

The reason we call it single payer is that we have a single payment negotiator, the state, that uses that bargaining power to keep prices down for everyone. They’re the only game in town. No need to negotiate with each insurance company, no need for each insurance company to negotiate with hospitals all over the country.

Also, administrative costs are the primary reason our healthcare is so much more expensive than our peers.

If you think the government negotiating on your behalf isn't going to drive costs up with unnecessary waste you are kidding yourself.

Mark my words...
If some kind of single payer system is ever implemented you will see politicians spouses and children suddenly becoming healthcare administrators and they will all be getting filthy rich holding their position.

 

[trouble13]

You want privatized death panels where rich men in shadowy rooms decide whether your life is worth saving?

I want a healthcare model based on the free market principles that control the price and quality of the goods services delivered.

That is the path to affordable healthcare.

 

[trouble13]

Quality doesn't matter if you can't afford to get treated.
I could live next door to a star trek style medical bay that can cure pretty much anything within seconds but if it costs £1m per treatment then it's pointless to me.

It's also pointless to open a place that expensive because there won't be enough customers to support it's existence.

 

[Allan]

I want a healthcare model based on the free market principles that control the price and quality of the goods services delivered.

You're doing an excellent job with this so far! Another few years of free market principles and you'll be at 15k per capita.

 

[Allan]

If you think the government negotiating on your behalf isn't going to drive costs up with unnecessary waste you are kidding yourself.

Insulin price per vial:
US $98
Canada $12

Mark my words...
If some kind of single payer system is ever implemented you will see politicians spouses and children suddenly becoming healthcare administrators and they will all be getting filthy rich holding their position.

No one here gets filthy rich as a healthcare administrator. Even in the largest systems they make less than half a million.

You know your healthcare CEOs have private jets right? Your top CEOs are in the range of 20 million.

So yeah you're doing a really good job of it.

 

[trouble13]

You're doing an excellent job with this so far! Another few years of free market principles and you'll be at 15k per capita.

The current healthcare model isn't based on free market principles

 

[trouble13]

Insulin price per vial:
US $98
Canada $12

No one here gets filthy rich as a healthcare administrator. Even in the largest systems they make less than half a million.

You know your healthcare CEOs have private jets right? Your top CEOs are in the range of 20 million.

So yeah you're doing a really good job of it.

Just remember if we ever go down the single payer path, you heard it from me first. The politicians will get rich off of it.

 

[Peter]

It's also pointless to open a place that expensive because there won't be enough customers to support it's existence.

You'd be surprised.
Just look at the hypercar sales to see how much money is out there.

 

[Peter]

The current healthcare model isn't based on free market principles

In an emergency situation people aren't likely to start ringing round to find the best deal on a hospital or treatment.
The fact that most places don't give out prices until after the procedure also doesn't help people find good deals.

 

[trouble13]

You'd be surprised.
Just look at the hypercar sales to see how much money is out there.

There might be a limited market for it but still there would be a market for the masses that was left to be tapped into.

 

[Absentglare]

If you think the government negotiating on your behalf isn't going to drive costs up with unnecessary waste you are kidding yourself.

Mark my words...
If some kind of single payer system is ever implemented you will see politicians spouses and children suddenly becoming healthcare administrators and they will all be getting filthy rich holding their position.

That’s a bold prediction when we have basically an entire planet worth of data to the contrary.

I want a healthcare model based on the free market principles that control the price and quality of the goods services delivered.

That is the path to affordable healthcare.

Either we let people die for inability to pay, or we end up paying for everyone. So you want private death panels.

 

[EdwinWillers]

The economics Stone Age is what you are looking for where the biggist and the toughest looks out for himself by taking from the weaker and smaller. It works well until someone invents money, civilization and airplanes.

If by "economics Stone Age" you are rebutting the claim that "huge government subsidies" are necessary to provide a decent healthcare system, I couldn't disagree more.

And don't for an instant presume to label me as someone looking for some bogus, bullshit system whereby bullies best the puny - that's your asinine thinking, not mine.

Moreover, where do you come off with such a stupid, inflammatory presumption anyway? I've said nothing but that I am against single payer and am against the federal government running our healthcare system - and that for constitutional reasons I've outlined.

You, and several others here seem to think any system that isn't one hugely subsidized by the federal government is somehow automatically evil and unworkable. Hell, I haven't even laid out what manner of system I think works besides your hugely subsidized federal government one, so you have precisely zero call to insult me for thinking something other than your hugely subsidized federal government system might actually be a better route to go.

So if you have nothing constructive to say....

 

[weaver2]

If by "economics Stone Age" you are rebutting the claim that "huge government subsidies" are necessary to provide a decent healthcare system, I couldn't disagree more.

And don't for an instant presume to label me as someone looking for some bogus, bullshit system whereby bullies best the puny - that's your asinine thinking, not mine.

Moreover, where do you come off with such a stupid, inflammatory presumption anyway? I've said nothing but that I am against single payer and am against the federal government running our healthcare system - and that for constitutional reasons I've outlined.

You, and several others here seem to think any system that isn't one hugely subsidized by the federal government is somehow automatically evil and unworkable. Hell, I haven't even laid out what manner of system I think works besides your hugely subsidized federal government one, so you have precisely zero call to insult me for thinking something other than your hugely subsidized federal government system might actually be a better route to go.

So if you have nothing constructive to say....

Sorry, probably thinking of someone else. It's hard to tell you cons apart; you all look sound alike.

 

[Greenbeard]

Indeed, I have had to point this out to you before. Deceleration started in 2003, and hit flat in 2010.



As a percentage of GDP is not the best measure, here.




It was the competitive power of Medicare Part D

Help me out here: you were predicting that the costs of health care after the ACA passed were being overestimated by trillions of dollars because everyone had simply missed that health care spending slowed down two decades ago?

Can you point me to those posts? Because from what I can tell, you thought the ACA would be more expensive than advertised, not substantially (to the tune of trillions of dollars) less.

 

[roguenuke]

Military hospitals do get a lot of practice with pregnancy/birth - that's true. But the VA scandals were real, and earned, and military "healthcare" (there's a reason we all joke about Motrin") was a horror for many.

Had one good friend who went in for a badly sprained ankle, and had a series of doctors make a series of mistakes.... two years later, we are medically retiring him because the second artificial shinbone they had to insert wasn't "taking".

The VA "scandal" comes much more from things like bureaucracy that takes money away, abuse, misuse and fraud, and the fact that the VA gets a ton more attention than civilian hospitals. Two of those things would be reduced greatly or at least shown to be not so much in comparison if you had the system suggested.

Military medical of active duty tends to be an issue related to chain of command making demands regarding personnel, holding expectations that go beyond what they should.

 

[cpwill]

The VA "scandal" comes much more from things like bureaucracy that takes money away, abuse, misuse and fraud, and the fact that the VA gets a ton more attention than civilian hospitals. Two of those things would be reduced greatly or at least shown to be not so much in comparison if you had the system suggested.

Military medical of active duty tends to be an issue related to chain of command making demands regarding personnel, holding expectations that go beyond what they should.

....you think that putting the federal government entirely in charge of our healthcare system, instead of only partially in charge... would reduce bureaucracy?

Take away accountability even more, and you get people who are less accountable. Take away competition, and you take away incentives to improve and perform. This is what we see at the VA, and other nationalized industries, and it's what we will see more of the more we expand them

 

[Noodlegawd]

Just a temperature check on how Americans feel about single-payer universal health care.

I support it in any state that wants to have it. It's a wonder that CA doesn't have it yet. So much for bragging about being the world's 5th largest economy.

 

[roguenuke]

....you think that putting the federal government entirely in charge of our healthcare system, instead of only partially in charge... would reduce bureaucracy?

Take away accountability even more, and you get people who are less accountable. Take away competition, and you take away incentives to improve and perform. This is what we see at the VA, and other nationalized industries, and it's what we will see more of the more we expand them

The civilian hospitals are the ones not held accountable, not held to any sort of responsibility standard, who can hide their failings, lawsuits, problems behind NDAs and simply not having to share such info.

 

[roguenuke]

I don't want to hear any more about how long it takes to get appointments in places with NHS or single payer.

I'm looking at the earliest appointment for my son to see a new specialist (some blood work came back with issues lately, so looking at a new medical problem) is April. I live in Wake county NC where there are 3 major medical systems within our area, one of the two largest areas in the state, and we may have to wait 3.5 months to see someone for this issue. And that is going to be at the farthest away doctors in our county from us, meaning more time off school and work to get these done.

And yes, I realize I'm ranting but this is the reality that we face in our current system too, not just NHS or single payer. My family is fairly decently well off, making 6 figure salary w/ nice health insurance. Those who don't have good, understanding, well paying jobs and/or decent insurance would be screwed in my family's situation. I consider my family lucky to have resources and support that most in the US don't have.

So yes, I will say again, I support single payer or, even better, UHC/NHS.

 

[weaver2]

....you think that putting the federal government entirely in charge of our healthcare system, instead of only partially in charge... would reduce bureaucracy?

Yes. We have Medicare and very good private insurance. Once a month I pay the Medicare bill. It comes on time the amount seldom changes, there are no screw-ups, they pay what they say they will pay, there is only one bureaucracy, the collection agency, between me and the source of funding and they answer their phones.

Take away accountability even more, and you get people who are less accountable.

The agency tasked with making insurance corporations accountable is staffed with insurance executives.

Take away competition, and you take away incentives to improve and perform.

Who is going to make the medical profession competitive? And how are they going to do that? Additionally doctors' fees are only part of the cost for health care.

Improvements in medical testing, diagnosis, techniques, drugs and surgeries come from applied research. and applied research comes from basic research which is funded primarily by the federal government and done at universities. Basic research is the discovery of some essential truth ; in chemistry for example it may be at the molecular level, in biology it may be at the cellular level. None of that knowledge can be patented for the same reason that the equations 2+2=4 or E=mc2 can't be patented. They are basic scientific and mathmatical truths. It doesn't make anyone any money. It is free knowledge which is why the government has to fund basic research. But corporations can take that free information and develop new products that can be patented.
Examples of government funding of basic research that produced innovations: the internet, search engines, American Sign language, MRIs, Nanotechnology, 3D printing, weather radar, DNA analysis, very–long–baseline interferometry (VLBI) that makes photography of distant objects like black holes possible.

NSF Impacts

NSF's mission is to advance the progress of science, a mission accomplished by funding proposals for research and education made by scientists, engineers, and educators from across the country.

www.nsf.gov

It is the government that drives basic research not private industry.

This is what we see at the VA, and other nationalized industries, and it's what we will see more of the more we expand them.

What people notice are the VA hospitals doing a bad job ;what they never notice are those doing a good job. What you aren't acknowledging is that when something is going very wrong at a VA hospital or agency(?) it gets public attention and the VA fixes it. It may take longer than veterens like to fix it but the government does get it right. I don't see anyone fixing our medical system or low quality hospitals.

 

[quip]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I've rarely had need of medical assistance, mostly (IMO) because I don't have a lot of "vices" that lead to poor health.

1. I don't smoke. (Nothing, so don't ask if that includes "preferred drugs").

2. I don't drink alcohol of any kind. To be honest it all tastes terrible, and if it tastes bad I figured it's not that good for you.

3. I avoid foods that are full of processed sugars (no candy, no confections, and no soft drinks).

4. I don't do any "recreational drugs."

I have annual physicals at the V.A. and pass them all with flying colors. That is literally the only "medical visits" I've had in decades.

I am not sure I support massive government programs of most kinds, but especially those that give people a false sense of security allowing them to think they can "party on," and someone will come take care of them.

5. Do you age?