Americans - would you support single-payer?

[Allan]

Yes I did.

So ultimately what this shows is that all other developed countries have a better system for a much lower cost

 

[WorldWatcher]

How much will it cost me? I need a number.

We (my wife and I) are currently paying about $20,000 a year for EE+Spouse (total premium = employee portion + employer portion). (About $10,000 per year per person.) Of course this applies only to full-time employees as part-time employees are not eligible for medical coverage.

Medicare when we retire will run $244 per month each with the need for gap insurance estimated at another $250 per month per person. Call it $500 per month each or $1000 per month for both of us. That's $12,000 per year.

Now what happens when a system where single-payer is based on the same incomes that go into determining IRS Income Tax for the 1040. That would include wages, salaries, interest, dividends, capital gains, etc. for all of the population.

Individual costs will go down for some (those working full-time with employer insurance) and will go up for others (those without subsidized employer insurance).

Those are the numbers we need. Numbers which show us health care delivery costs as a function of single payer. But also the revenue numbers with basically the elimination of private insurance for basic care and what the funding revenues will be.

WW

 

[VySky]

So ultimately what this shows is that all other developed countries have a better system for a much lower cost

See my edited post above #25

 

[VySky]

I don't like the fact that "quality" is degraded to increase equitability and cost realities.

 

[Allan]

I don't like the fact that "quality" is degraded to increase equitability and cost realities.

That's not the case though, according to the link you posted. All other developed countries have a lower cost and higher quality than the US.

In fact...

US spends most on health care but has worst health outcomes among high-income countries, new report finds​

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/health/us-health-care-spending-global-perspective/index.html

 

[VySky]

That's not the case though, according to the link you posted. All other developed countries have a lower cost and higher quality than the US.

In fact...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/health/us-health-care-spending-global-perspective/index.html

By the rating criteria that puts quality at #3

For me, quality is the #1 priority.

Americans are as a whole obese and lazy

=============

"There are limited comparable measures of quality available. Among measures we can compare, the U.S. performs similarly or better than its peers for when intensive, acute care is required, such as for 30-day mortality after heart attack orstroke admissions".

How does the quality of the U.S. health system compare to other countries? - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

Across a wide variety of measures of quality, the U.S. health system appears to perform worse than peer nations on more indicators than it does better. Across a wide variety of measures of quality, the U.S. health system appears to perform worse than peer nations on more indicators than it does...

www.healthsystemtracker.org

 

[Allan]

Among measures we can compare, the U.S. performs similarly or better than its peers for when intensive, acute care is required

Cherry picking. Your own previous link shows the US dead last.

 

[VySky]

Cherry picking. Your own previous link shows the US dead last.

When using the rating criteria that rates quality last. How much weight do you think each one of the benchmarks of equitability, affordability and quality were given?

We don't rate our healthcare systems that way.

Overview of the U.S. Healthcare System Infrastructure​

"The NHQDR tracks care delivered by providers in many types of healthcare settings. The goal is to provide high-quality healthcare that is culturally and linguistically sensitive, patient centered, timely, affordable, well coordinated, and safe".

OVERVIEW OF U.S. HEALTHCARE SYSTEM LANDSCAPE - 2021 National Healthcare Quality and Disparities Report - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Allan]

When using the rating criteria that rates quality last. How much weight do you think each one of the benchmarks of equitability, affordability and quality were given?

We don't rate our healthcare systems that way.

Overview of the U.S. Healthcare System Infrastructure​

"The NHQDR tracks care delivered by providers in many types of healthcare settings. The goal is to provide high-quality healthcare that is culturally and linguistically sensitive, patient centered, timely, affordable, well coordinated, and safe".

OVERVIEW OF U.S. HEALTHCARE SYSTEM LANDSCAPE - 2021 National Healthcare Quality and Disparities Report - NCBI Bookshelf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Too little too late. You took a shot at Canada's system by posting a link showing your own in last place.

Biggest self own on the thread, thus far.

 

[VySky]

Too little too late. You took a shot at Canada's system by posting a link showing your own in last place.

Biggest self own on the thread, thus far.

Not really. You pointed to a system that puts my priorities last. I’m willing to pay more than $41 a month to have quality better than what Canada’s system provides.

And with our system I have that option.

 

[VySky]

Too little too late. You took a shot at Canada's system by posting a link showing your own in last place.

Biggest self own on the thread, thus far.

Again. Last place based on criteria America doesn’t use when rating their HC system.

You are getting ahead of your skis.

 

[Paradoxical]

That's not the case though, according to the link you posted. All other developed countries have a lower cost and higher quality than the US.

In fact...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/health/us-health-care-spending-global-perspective/index.html

What about the cost of liability suits and demand for the latest and greatest machines and treatments? But, I think we need a side-by-side comparison of what the single-payer advocates include in the cost column.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Still unsure what you're asking.

Why it’s deemed good to start (or invest in) a non-profit business.

 

[trouble13]

I'm sure asking the EMT's to hold for a minute while you Google search local area cardiac specialists if you are having a heart attack, or emergency rooms in the event of an accident.

Or hey even cancer specialists to treat your lymphoma because we all know finding the cheapest is the best way to long life. If you can't afford the good ones, save money and just die.

WW

I'm sure you think all healthcare services are as time sensitive as heart attacks and level of care is as critical as cancer. People with your attitude are why healthcare has become affordable.

 

[trouble13]

Or removing profit and duplicated administration costs entirely.

Competition and consumers paying out of pocket both act as a control on profits.

Reducing administrative costs where we can is always a plus. The more we inject the gov into healthcare the higher those costs will be. The gov loves paperwork.

 

[Allan]

Competition and consumers paying out of pocket both act as a control on profits.

If that was true you'd have the lowest cost.

Reducing administrative costs where we can is always a plus. The more we inject the gov into healthcare the higher those costs will be. The gov loves paperwork.

Our admin is a fraction of yours, according to the Harvard study I mentioned earlier.

 

[trouble13]

While allowing people to go without insurance =healthcare is one of the finest attributes of capitalism. One must have boots to be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Then don't complain about high healthcare costs. People like you are driving them up.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I'm sure you think all healthcare services are as time sensitive as heart attacks and level of care is as critical as cancer. People with your attitude are why healthcare has become affordable.

My attitude?

“If they would rather die they had better do it and decrease the surplus population”

WW

 

[MAGAnificent]

Old enough to qualify for Medicare?

Yes. I am 70.

If not, do you intend to accept Medicare coverage when you age into it?

Only part of Medicare I accepted was Part A, (hospital only) which is automatic. I did not accept Part B or enroll in Part C or D.. I am enrolled in VA Healthcare.

 

[cpwill]

I'd say the opposite from my experience.

I have two great examples to go off of too, two different pregnancies, one under military healthcare and the other under private healthcare.

My military pregnancy was great. I got wonderful care, assistance, regular doctor appointments, and they didn't treat me like it was a hardship to list me as a high risk pregnancy. The doctor coordinated with the hospital and gave me all the info about the berthing options (including letting me know mine would be limited), lists of berthing classes, hospital tour, things that we may want. After having our son there, they made sure to keep me and him for 2.5 days to make sure we were both healthy enough to leave. There was a lactation specialist available and counselors. They made you go through a course on postpartum depression and basic parenting before you could be discharged.

My civilian pregnancy experience was far less. They acted put out that I'd have to be considered a high risk pregnancy. No hospital tour was available. The hospital was far less prepared for my situation. They were less attentive. There were no requirements for leaving the hospital like the parenting class above. They didn't even have a breastfeeding kit available (they had one for bottle feeding) for those of us who chose to breastfeed (they said they had ran out and just hadn't ordered more). I don't remember having a lactation specialist come specifically to talk to me like they had at the military hospital.

Military hospitals do get a lot of practice with pregnancy/birth - that's true. But the VA scandals were real, and earned, and military "healthcare" (there's a reason we all joke about Motrin") was a horror for many.

Had one good friend who went in for a badly sprained ankle, and had a series of doctors make a series of mistakes.... two years later, we are medically retiring him because the second artificial shinbone they had to insert wasn't "taking".

 

[brianpatrick]

Republicans will eventually support single payer healthcare. They’ll have to if they want to start winning elections again.

 

[cpwill]

A Huge Threat to the U.S. Budget Has Receded. And No One Is Sure Why. (Published 2023)

Instead of growing and growing, as it always had, spending per Medicare beneficiary has nearly leveled off over more than a decade.

www.nytimes.com

You frequently claim that but the facts speak for themselves:

Indeed, I have had to point this out to you before. Deceleration started in 2003, and hit flat in 2010.

Or just look at the national health spending data that came out this month: health care costs 17.3% of GDP (as of 2022). Back in 2010 it cost...17.2% of GDP. The cost curve has done more than bend, it's been flat since 2010.

As a percentage of GDP is not the best measure, here.

If your claim is that expanding Medicare benefits is what halted the rise in per beneficiary Medicare costs, that would be an excellent argument for the OP.

It was the competitive power of Medicare Part D

 

[Absentglare]

Why is it called single payer if it's paid collectively?

If a rich Progressive wants to pay everyone's medical bills I have no objection to that but that isn't what is being proposed. The name is misleading.

Right now, each payer negotiates independently with each healthcare provider. This imposes administrative costs on both insurers (the payers) and the healthcare providers. We end up paying for administrators on both sides of that equation. You’re paying to go to a hospital that has additional administrative costs for every insurer they support. Those costs are passed on to you, indirectly but passed on nonetheless.

The reason we call it single payer is that we have a single payment negotiator, the state, that uses that bargaining power to keep prices down for everyone. They’re the only game in town. No need to negotiate with each insurance company, no need for each insurance company to negotiate with hospitals all over the country.

Also, administrative costs are the primary reason our healthcare is so much more expensive than our peers.

 

[Absentglare]

I don't want gov controlled medicine. It's a bad model.

You want privatized death panels where rich men in shadowy rooms decide whether your life is worth saving?

 

[Absentglare]

Indeed, I have had to point this out to you before. Deceleration started in 2003, and hit flat in 2010.



As a percentage of GDP is not the best measure, here.




It was the competitive power of Medicare Part D

Correct, as a percentage of GDP is not the best measure because it makes potential savings look much smaller than they really are.