• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A change to the infraction dispute process

Status
Not open for further replies.

dontworrybehappy

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
3,928
Reaction score
1,559
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I know this is hopeless, but I wanted to make a suggestion that the person who is having an infraction disputed be able to participate in the thread in which their infraction is being discussed. If they get rude etc, kick them out like any other thread, but saying "If you have anything that would help your case send it to the liaison mod and it will be posted"....that's like going to court and trying to defend yourself from a prosecutor that you are not allowed to hear. How can I possibly defend myself or add anything if I can't hear/see what is being said?

One main reason is because I feel sometimes a post can be misunderstood and if explained by the poster, and if questioned by other mods responded to by the person who wrote it, that it would give that person a more fair chance at a reversal. I mean, one mod discussing it might say something about the post, and without the person who made the post able to defend themselves, others might jump on board and the infraction not be reversed when, if the person had been able to participate, could have clarified something that might result in a reversal.

I know this will be shot down but I wanted to at least put it out there.
 
Last edited:
When you file an infraction dispute, a Moderator is assigned to act as your point of contact. Normally you are told "if you have any information or comments you wish to be included in this dispute, PM them to me and I will pass them on to the Mod team." If the Mod team raises any questions for you, your point-person will PM you to ask the question and relay the answer to the Mods as a whole.

In effect, you ARE there... you just don't get to see the discussion in person. IMO it has to be that way for a variety of reasons.
 
Yeah, it is going to be shot down, but thank you for your polite suggestion and let me explain. When we discuss infractions we need to be able to do it without having to worry about making everything we say suitable for public. Not only would we have to worry about things we say being taken out of context or misunderstood, but we also discuss things like making comparisons to similar infractions others have gotten, history of the poster and the rule, and so on. Those things are confidential for the users privacy. If JoeBlow is disputing an infraction, and we point to how we gave a similar one to, for example, you, if JoeBlow was in the thread it would be unfair to you, and yet that comparison could be an important part of judging the infraction. It is just not feasible.

We are open to suggestions to improving the rules and improving the dispute process, so if you can think of other ways to improve back and forth communication in disputes, I will make sure that the mod team does discuss it and give it serious consideration. I am not trying to blow off or downplay your concern and there are always room for improvements with any system. I personally and I know the other mods do take suggestions like this seriously and you would be surprised at how often discussions in the mod forum stem from threads like this one.

Edit: Goshin had not made his post yet when I started composing mine. Looking at the time difference, damn I took alot of time composing my thoughts. I would like to add to what Goshin said by saying the point of contact mod for a dispute will always welcome further comments and clarifications from a user during the process, that is part of what they are there for.
 
Last edited:
Shot down like a clay pigeon in duck hunt.

Where's that goofy dog?
 
Shot down like a clay pigeon in duck hunt.

Where's that goofy dog?

Moderator's Warning:
If you are not going to contribute to the topic of discussion, don't post in Feedback/Suggestion threads.
 
perhaps not be able to participate in the discussion, but it would be very interesting if we could actually view the appeal discussion.

that would allow the member who is appealing to respond to direct assertions & possible misunderstandings that only they may know how to explain.
 
perhaps not be able to participate in the discussion, but it would be very interesting if we could actually view the appeal discussion.

that would allow the member who is appealing to respond to direct assertions & possible misunderstandings that only they may know how to explain.


Redress explained very thoroughly why we can't do this.
 
Well I only mean the one person being able to participate in their own infraction dispute and it NOT be visible or anything to anyone else.

I know this would fly as well as a bird in a thunderstorm but I was going to give it the old college try.
 
We've discussed in before in the mod forum but I'll start up another thread on it. However, based on previous times we've talked about it, let me give some insight into why we did not go that route.

1) Similar instances of infraction to other people are rather common to come up in these discussion. Precedent is something routinely looked to in terms of mod action that might be questionable or needing a second look. For example, a mod could argue that something should be overturned because in relatively similar situation X and Y, with posters with a worse infraction history, we only gave warnings. Doing that would indicate to the disputing poster what action was taken against Poster X and Y. This is something that can not, and will not, be talked about with another poster because individual mod action to other posters is private. Mods could not use the posters name but...a) That complicates the issues for the Mod's possibly making it hard to know what's being talked about to go back and look over and b) that still potentially makes it obvious for a poster to go and find out. As such, having a poster participating complicates a significant part at times to the dispute process.

2) Part of the reason it is private is that it allows mods to speak freely. We rely on each of us to call each other out when we think something is wrong, and we need to have that level of trust of privacy for that to happen. By having the poster involved, Mods become less free to actively and strongly argue and debate each other on the issue. The team functions as that, a team, and it hinges on an understanding that we can argue and fight and debate on issues regarding the forum with an understanding by all mods that what is decided is what we stand by in the end. Again, the trust in the team to be able to be fully open and honest with each other is important for this to work. We may talk about past discussions, things brought up in other infractions or report threads, and other such things. There's a lot there that can could be easily misunderstood, taken out of context, or misrepresented due to having only a tiny view into the larger scope of things.

3) By allowing a poster in there, you're presenting them with the ability to determine "favorites" on the mod team that they seek to leverage. Part of the process that keeps things consistent on this forum is that violations are reported via the report function primarily, not by PMing individual mods. All mods are expected to check the report forum when they come in. By doing it this way, it is an even playing field where any mod is as likely as the next to be the one answering a report and making a judgement at any given time. Five reports on five days of the same individual could each be viewed and decided upon by a different mod. This essentially creates a consistent playing ground. By allowing individuals to have insight into specific views an individual mod may have, it opens up instances where they run to that individual mod to attempt to get action taken rather than reporting it to the team and allowing the natural process to occur where the first mod that see's it acts based on their judgement. This actually opens up the chance for Mods to be wrongfully used to actually target individuals inadvertently.

4) It would further complicated, prolong, and bog down the issue. Already, with the method that we currently use, we have numerous posters that attempt to view it and treat it in the method you just said....court. They attempt to grasp at loop holes, argue continually on semantics, attempt to argue based on accusations to others, and etc. We have sought a streamlined process not simply for the posters, but for Mod's too. Again, this is a volunteer position and disputes is just one of a long list of things we need to do. Getting into long running "Debates" about an infraction with posters is not something we have a desire nor intention of doing. Especially since the case with disputes, often, is that the arguments that are used ("But others in the thread were doing X!"..."Yeah I said it but I mean, they should've known I was joking so it should be okay!"...."Yeah it was a personal attack but...come on, you let people get away with more than that!"...."This is biased and you're out to get me"..."it's stupid that's considered a violation!"...."He IS a [derogatory term], so I'm just calling a spade a spade!") are simply not an excuse, what so ever, for a rules violation. Allowing "debate" and "discussion" to occur in those disputes is not going to do anything but prolong the process, take up mod time, and frustrate a poster further as they continue to make the same failed argument that simply is not something that is, or ever will be, viewed as a legitimate defense. Most of those that would mount a legitimate defense, and there are cases of this with numerous infractions overturned, do so in their PM to the mod team and typically those are the ones that are most often to get overturned without any further need for them to enter the discussion.

I appreciate the polite method of presenting it, and we do have new mods so I'll reopen the topic. However, Redress is likely right. The likelihood that this will be shot down is high because, the fact is, what you suggested is something that has been discussed more than once already by the mod team in multiple incarnations. It's not a new suggestion, nor idea, and something whose merits have been debated and argued about before. It doesn't hurt to broach the conversation a bit again....but the reality is that, since there's really no new compelling suggestion as to why it should be done than there had been in previous times it's came up, the results are likely to be just the same. That's not simply "shooting you down", it's be honest with you regarding the situation in terms of past times this same suggestion has been brought up.
 
Last edited:
We've discussed in before in the mod forum but I'll start up another thread on it. However, based on previous times we've talked about it, let me give some insight into why we did not go that route.

1) Similar instances of infraction to other people are rather common to come up in these discussion. Precedent is something routinely looked to in terms of mod action that might be questionable or needing a second look. For example, a mod could argue that something should be overturned because in relatively similar situation X and Y, with posters with a worse infraction history, we only gave warnings. Doing that would indicate to the disputing poster what action was taken against Poster X and Y. This is something that can not, and will not, be talked about with another poster because individual mod action to other posters is private. Mods could not use the posters name but...a) That complicates the issues for the Mod's possibly making it hard to know what's being talked about to go back and look over and b) that still potentially makes it obvious for a poster to go and find out. As such, having a poster participating complicates a significant part at times to the dispute process.

2) Part of the reason it is private is that it allows mods to speak freely. We rely on each of us to call each other out when we think something is wrong, and we need to have that level of trust of privacy for that to happen. By having the poster involved, Mods become less free to actively and strongly argue and debate each other on the issue. The team functions as that, a team, and it hinges on an understanding that we can argue and fight and debate on issues regarding the forum with an understanding by all mods that what is decided is what we stand by in the end. Again, the trust in the team to be able to be fully open and honest with each other is important for this to work. We may talk about past discussions, things brought up in other infractions or report threads, and other such things. There's a lot there that can could be easily misunderstood, taken out of context, or misrepresented due to having only a tiny view into the larger scope of things.

3) By allowing a poster in there, you're presenting them with the ability to determine "favorites" on the mod team that they seek to leverage. Part of the process that keeps things consistent on this forum is that violations are reported via the report function primarily, not by PMing individual mods. All mods are expected to check the report forum when they come in. By doing it this way, it is an even playing field where any mod is as likely as the next to be the one answering a report and making a judgement at any given time. Five reports on five days of the same individual could each be viewed and decided upon by a different mod. This essentially creates a consistent playing ground. By allowing individuals to have insight into specific views an individual mod may have, it opens up instances where they run to that individual mod to attempt to get action taken rather than reporting it to the team and allowing the natural process to occur where the first mod that see's it acts based on their judgement. This actually opens up the chance for Mods to be wrongfully used to actually target individuals inadvertently.

4) It would further complicated, prolong, and bog down the issue. Already, with the method that we currently use, we have numerous posters that attempt to view it and treat it in the method you just said....court. They attempt to grasp at loop holes, argue continually on semantics, attempt to argue based on accusations to others, and etc. We have sought a streamlined process not simply for the posters, but for Mod's too. Again, this is a volunteer position and disputes is just one of a long list of things we need to do. Getting into long running "Debates" about an infraction with posters is not something we have a desire nor intention of doing. Especially since the case with disputes, often, is that the arguments that are used ("But others in the thread were doing X!"..."Yeah I said it but I mean, they should've known I was joking so it should be okay!"...."Yeah it was a personal attack but...come on, you let people get away with more than that!"...."This is biased and you're out to get me"..."it's stupid that's considered a violation!"...."He IS a [derogatory term], so I'm just calling a spade a spade!") are simply not an excuse, what so ever, for a rules violation. Allowing "debate" and "discussion" to occur in those disputes is not going to do anything but prolong the process, take up mod time, and frustrate a poster further as they continue to make the same failed argument that simply is not something that is, or ever will be, viewed as a legitimate defense. Most of those that would mount a legitimate defense, and there are cases of this with numerous infractions overturned, do so in their PM to the mod team and typically those are the ones that are most often to get overturned without any further need for them to enter the discussion.

I appreciate the polite method of presenting it, and we do have new mods so I'll reopen the topic. However, Redress is likely right. The likelihood that this will be shot down is high because, the fact is, what you suggested is something that has been discussed more than once already by the mod team in multiple incarnations. It's not a new suggestion, nor idea, and something whose merits have been debated and argued about before. It doesn't hurt to broach the conversation a bit again....but the reality is that, since there's really no new compelling suggestion as to why it should be done than there had been in previous times it's came up, the results are likely to be just the same. That's not simply "shooting you down", it's be honest with you regarding the situation in terms of past times this same suggestion has been brought up.

1. Ok, why is that? Why, if I get an infraction, is it compared to anyone elses anything? It should be judged as an infraction on its face. If it is it is, if its not its not. It shouldn't be compared to any other infraction anywhere else. This I see as a huge problem if this is being done behind the scenes.

2. Again, this is just a regurgitation of number 1. You're simply restating that mods should be able to discuss others infractions in your dispute thread. That makes no sense. A member's post that is in dispute and a members infraction history should be the ONLY things considered during an infraction debate.

3. How can "favorites" be played if all replies are in the open? If individual replies are replied to by the poster, how is favoring anyone? I don't get what you mean here. You speak of a member using a mod to get action or something. I didn't ask for a change in the reporting, you still report by "contact us---infraction dispute." But when the dispute is taken up, you can participate and defend yourself. That is only fair. I mean.....fair is the key right? You speak of fair but don't give a member a chance to defend themselves. How fair is that?

4. For the same reason its wrong for a mod to use another infraction as a basis on judging someone elses infraction, it would be just as wrong for a member to do the same thing. Saying they cant participate because they might do exactly what we do makes no sense at all.

I know you tried to clarify things, but I think you just muddied the waters even more. You speak of the topic having come up before. I never saw it, I just saw where people wanted to make modding public. I'm not asking for that. I'm saying keep it between the mod squad and the offending member. That's only fair. You could even make it a bannable offense if the member discloses anything said inside the mod discussion thread about their infraction. Make it like the vegas rule. It can easily be implemented but you have to want it. If you continue to want to hide all discussions you continue to make it where infraction disputes are pointless as you can't see what is being said.
 
Last edited:
I am not Zyphlin but I will take a stab at this.

1. Ok, why is that? Why, if I get an infraction, is it compared to anyone elses anything? It should be judged as an infraction on its face. If it is it is, if its not its not. It shouldn't be compared to any other infraction anywhere else. This I see as a huge problem if this is being done behind the scenes.

Comparisons are for consistency. We strive for consistency in how we handle matters. There will always be some variations, but we try and keep them small. Zyphlin has a great way to describe this and I will not steal his thunder.

2. Again, this is just a regurgitation of number 1. You're simply restating that mods should be able to discuss others infractions in your dispute thread. That makes no sense. A member's post that is in dispute and a members infraction history should be the ONLY things considered during an infraction debate.

No it is not a restatement. We do our arguing behind closed doors, but in public we present a united front. This is important. Look at the list of mods. Do you really think that set of disparate belief systems represented there is all of one mind on issues? Of course not. However, once a decision is made, it is a team decision and we all back it 100 %. As soon as people start seeing where one mod is more receptive to certain arguments, they will try and take advantage of that. That is part of why our confidentiality in our discussions is important.

3. How can "favorites" be played if all replies are in the open? If individual replies are replied to by the poster, how is favoring anyone? I don't get what you mean here.

What he means(I think) is people will try and determine favorite mods in terms of who will be most receptive to the way they present themselves.

4. For the same reason its wrong for a mod to use another infraction as a basis on judging someone elses infraction, it would be just as wrong for a member to do the same thing. Saying they cant participate because they might do exactly what we do makes no sense at all.

President is important, but is not the end all be all of a situation. Further, Zyphlin's argument in this case is that your suggestion would become too much of a time sink. Mods all do have real lives. The time we spend doing mod stuff(and it can get quite significant at times) is time we can't peruse or post on the board as posters(what brought us here), or other fun or necessary activities here or in the real world. Every dispute thread would become a 20 page back and forth, mods would burn out faster, and it would take a ton of time.

I know you tried to clarify things, but I think you just muddied the waters even more.

AS long as you are polite and keep up as you are, we will continue to try and explain and clarify as best we can, at least until it becomes totally apparent that we just are not connecting at all kinda thing.
 
No reason to get rude. I'm not being treated rudely at all. I've made my case. You guys have counter argued with points that some don't make sense to me and some do. It is what it is. Like I said, I knew it wouldn't go anywhere but better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all.
 
Let me see if I can clarify what is meant by using past infractions, disputes, reports, etc to help determine a dispute. In the process, I'll also try to illustrate why...due to seeing the full picture in EVERY infraction...things may not look "exactly the same" to Mods but why posters routinely think things look "Exactly the same" in their eyes.

Mind you, this is all hypothetical and not necessarily a reflection of what the rules really is. It's just an example.

Let's say you have an instance where a Mod infracts someone for calling someone a "dumb dumb". A dispute is lodged. A mod viewing the dispute pipes in and suggest that the infraction is over the top for a relatively light insult. He points to a discussion regarding a report last week where another poster called an individual a "dumb dumb" and the general concensus was that it didn't deserve more than a warning. He points to another infraction from a few months ago with a similarly juvenile styled "light insult", where a poster called someone a "dingleberry" and points out that one was reversed into a warning with thoughts that it was light as well. To be consistent, that Mod believes the infraction should be reversed to a warning.

Another mod however pipes up. He points out that in the report that was discussed the other week, the individual was a long time poster without many infractions and no infractions active, there was no in thread warnings prior to that, and it was a 3 day old report with the thread moved well beyond that point now without further violations. He notes the one from a few months ago was to a poster who had only just joined and had a few posts to his name and suggested the warning was in part due to the fact we try to give new members warnings first to help steer them in the right direction. He finally notes that this particular instance, there were 2 in thread warnings stating to stop personal attacks and that there would be no tolerance for any, and that the individual in question already has 2 B/F/T infractions and a B/F/T warning active on his screen name. So that mod argues that while we often see such an insult as "too light" for points, due to the surrounding circumstances it's within mod discretion to infract in this case.

To be consistent, we need to look at past instances that are at least somewhat similar. Otherwise every infraction basically happens in a bubble with results potentially being all over the board. Mod's are not the Borg, all functioning with a single mind at all time. Different ones can see different situations in different ways. The dispute process and the ability to go back with precedence provides a way for the team to monitor itself and provide an additional level of consistency for those times when a Mod acts too far outside the standard deviation of acceptable practice.

Another example would be with *BN*. Say a poster gets gigged by a relatively new mod because he posted a Politico story to the *BN* - MSM forum. The Mod noted that the Politico is an online newspaper and as such belongs in the blog section. The member puts in a dispute, claiming that it's not fair, that it should be considered mainstream. A mod comes into the dispute and points out that back in the early days of the *BN* split, and again a year or so later, we had a few instances of reports and disputes where it was discussed and determined that because Politico has a small print base in DC that it would qualify for *BN*-MSM and we had previously overturned infractions given to people for posting it in that section. Based on the past precedence, we would then overturn this individuals infraction as well.

Other times a mod may offer up another infraction, suggesting it's comparable or asking how it's not comparable, to form basis for their decision on which way to go on a dispute. This sometimes leads to discussion, regarding how it's similar, how it's different, and how applicable one situation is to another. Again, discussion about other infractions. However it's done as a means of keeping internal consistency.

This is the process we choose to use because it allows us to best give each mod the discretion to act as they deem appropriate in a given situation, but at the same time when reviewing an action as a group having a reasonable blue print of what should/shouldn't fall within the boundries of acceptable discretion. By taking each infraction singularly and entirely in a vacuum, only on it's face value, then you create a situation where there's actually a greater chance for wildly inconsistent application of the rules.
 
I've never disputed an infraction, so if I'm describing the current process forgive me. In order to give a poster a better chance to 'explain' themselves, what if the PMs with the POC mod included the following, in order:

1. A request from the mod for the infracted member to explain why they feel the infraction is unwarranted.
2. A follow up from the mod explaining why the mods think the infraction IS warranted (if they so believe) and a final chance for the infracted member to counter-point. This can be done by the mod without naming names, so as to keep those comparison situations private.

The follow-up should address all of the points the infracted member made in their original challenge, IMO.
 
I am not Zyphlin but I will take a stab at this.



Comparisons are for consistency. We strive for consistency in how we handle matters. There will always be some variations, but we try and keep them small. Zyphlin has a great way to describe this and I will not steal his thunder.



No it is not a restatement. We do our arguing behind closed doors, but in public we present a united front. This is important. Look at the list of mods. Do you really think that set of disparate belief systems represented there is all of one mind on issues? Of course not. However, once a decision is made, it is a team decision and we all back it 100 %. As soon as people start seeing where one mod is more receptive to certain arguments, they will try and take advantage of that. That is part of why our confidentiality in our discussions is important.



What he means(I think) is people will try and determine favorite mods in terms of who will be most receptive to the way they present themselves.



President is important, but is not the end all be all of a situation. Further, Zyphlin's argument in this case is that your suggestion would become too much of a time sink. Mods all do have real lives. The time we spend doing mod stuff(and it can get quite significant at times) is time we can't peruse or post on the board as posters(what brought us here), or other fun or necessary activities here or in the real world. Every dispute thread would become a 20 page back and forth, mods would burn out faster, and it would take a ton of time.



AS long as you are polite and keep up as you are, we will continue to try and explain and clarify as best we can, at least until it becomes totally apparent that we just are not connecting at all kinda thing.

LOL. Comparisons/analogies are used for consistancy in NORMAL threads as well yet you BLOW THEM OFF as "red herrings" or say that they are irrelevant, apples to oranges or off topic. When responding to posts, using no additional facts or ideas, to simply say "I am right and your post is not" is clearly doing NOTHING to add any content to a discussion, it only serves as harrasment of the poster, IMHO that is baiting. Once your post has been declared "useless" or "valueless" by a moderator then that does NOT encourage sticking with the rules.

Moderators using terms such as "we" don't think that something is right, and that "we" is "every ****ing body on the planet" followed by blowing off the post, leaves what as a viable response? Better, IMHO, to say nothing, at all, than to pipe up with pure mush, as a moderator, and then jump on those, mere mortals, that say that a post is "typical moronic trash from folks of a particular political view", followed by a logical explanation of WHY that was said. Having your post labeled as "garbage" without ANY supporting reason by a "moderator" is, IMHO, not within the spirit of honest debate, thus is nothing but baiting. If you feel a post is that bad, simply say nothing, or refute its CONTENT, by offering an alternative and supported view.

I fully realize that moderators act as "normal" posters, most of the time, yet their techniques of debate SHOULD also serve as an example of acceptable debating tactics. If it is acceptable to "blow off" posts without adding any other content or reason, and that is NOT baiting, then just what IS baiting?
 
Last edited:
Let me see if I can clarify what is meant by using past infractions, disputes, reports, etc to help determine a dispute. In the process, I'll also try to illustrate why...due to seeing the full picture in EVERY infraction...things may not look "exactly the same" to Mods but why posters routinely think things look "Exactly the same" in their eyes.

Mind you, this is all hypothetical and not necessarily a reflection of what the rules really is. It's just an example.

Let's say you have an instance where a Mod infracts someone for calling someone a "dumb dumb". A dispute is lodged. A mod viewing the dispute pipes in and suggest that the infraction is over the top for a relatively light insult. He points to a discussion regarding a report last week where another poster called an individual a "dumb dumb" and the general concensus was that it didn't deserve more than a warning. He points to another infraction from a few months ago with a similarly juvenile styled "light insult", where a poster called someone a "dingleberry" and points out that one was reversed into a warning with thoughts that it was light as well. To be consistent, that Mod believes the infraction should be reversed to a warning.

Another mod however pipes up. He points out that in the report that was discussed the other week, the individual was a long time poster without many infractions and no infractions active, there was no in thread warnings prior to that, and it was a 3 day old report with the thread moved well beyond that point now without further violations. He notes the one from a few months ago was to a poster who had only just joined and had a few posts to his name and suggested the warning was in part due to the fact we try to give new members warnings first to help steer them in the right direction. He finally notes that this particular instance, there were 2 in thread warnings stating to stop personal attacks and that there would be no tolerance for any, and that the individual in question already has 2 B/F/T infractions and a B/F/T warning active on his screen name. So that mod argues that while we often see such an insult as "too light" for points, due to the surrounding circumstances it's within mod discretion to infract in this case.

To be consistent, we need to look at past instances that are at least somewhat similar. Otherwise every infraction basically happens in a bubble with results potentially being all over the board. Mod's are not the Borg, all functioning with a single mind at all time. Different ones can see different situations in different ways. The dispute process and the ability to go back with precedence provides a way for the team to monitor itself and provide an additional level of consistency for those times when a Mod acts too far outside the standard deviation of acceptable practice.

Another example would be with *BN*. Say a poster gets gigged by a relatively new mod because he posted a Politico story to the *BN* - MSM forum. The Mod noted that the Politico is an online newspaper and as such belongs in the blog section. The member puts in a dispute, claiming that it's not fair, that it should be considered mainstream. A mod comes into the dispute and points out that back in the early days of the *BN* split, and again a year or so later, we had a few instances of reports and disputes where it was discussed and determined that because Politico has a small print base in DC that it would qualify for *BN*-MSM and we had previously overturned infractions given to people for posting it in that section. Based on the past precedence, we would then overturn this individuals infraction as well.

Other times a mod may offer up another infraction, suggesting it's comparable or asking how it's not comparable, to form basis for their decision on which way to go on a dispute. This sometimes leads to discussion, regarding how it's similar, how it's different, and how applicable one situation is to another. Again, discussion about other infractions. However it's done as a means of keeping internal consistency.

This is the process we choose to use because it allows us to best give each mod the discretion to act as they deem appropriate in a given situation, but at the same time when reviewing an action as a group having a reasonable blue print of what should/shouldn't fall within the boundries of acceptable discretion. By taking each infraction singularly and entirely in a vacuum, only on it's face value, then you create a situation where there's actually a greater chance for wildly inconsistent application of the rules.

That's a great explanation and I know it took a while to bang that all out on the keyboard. Much appreciated. The only thing I have to comment on is as long as individual names are not used, you're really not revealing anyone's personal infractions to a member. Saying "a member only got a warning for this once" is not reporting any personal info. It could be discussed openly with the member there but without names, its just fluff. Its not revealing any private info. At least not IMHO.
 
Frankly I'd rather have comparisons, because otherwise it seems everything would be cut and dried. You broke the rule, PERIOD, so you get "this punishment" without the context. Frankly I didn't know the mods were going to this much trouble. I'm a mod on an auto forum, and I don't think I've seen it taken to this level, looking other people's infractions, etc. Of course most of the problem on that site is spam from people trying to sell things in parts of the forum where it isn't allowed. Some of it has to do with people being jerks. I suspect and political forum was be a lot different.
 
Moderator's Warning:
There's a section for just ranting about Moderators. This isn't it. Perhaps you should be going there
 
That's a great explanation and I know it took a while to bang that all out on the keyboard. Much appreciated. The only thing I have to comment on is as long as individual names are not used, you're really not revealing anyone's personal infractions to a member. Saying "a member only got a warning for this once" is not reporting any personal info. It could be discussed openly with the member there but without names, its just fluff. Its not revealing any private info. At least not IMHO.

One, even without naming names certain conversations or topics or threads being discussed can still make it obvious whose being talked about. Furthermore, not using the name would make the entire process extremely convoluted and confusing for moderators as there'd be extreme difficulty in knowing what report or infraction or discussion that the conversation took place in, what the context of it was, etc. It simply complicates the manner and makes it even harder for the mods to be able to actually discuss and decide on an infraction. Not to mention, as you've seen undoubtably multiple times in various parts of the forum....the common refrain from people who are upset with the Mod team, and that is often the case in most disputes, is to just label anything they say that isn't visable or verifiable to the poster as "bull****" or "made up" or "fabricated" or a "lie" anyways.

You've put forward the suggestion, but you'e not really put forward anything new and different then those who have suggested it in the past have given. That's not a knock on you, but it's more just highlighting why it's unlikely my view would personally change. To me...this is a change that add's little in reality in terms of the useful input the poster can give, decreases the opennness mods can express during a dispute, potentially screws with member privacy, will likely make the dispute process longer and more convoluted, and the net result is that most of those who would most often feel that the dispute system is "unfair" would still find it "unfair" because they'd come into it going "Well, I know you won't listen to me but...." and then get mad when the Mod's don't agree or will declare things they say a "lie" or "made up" or other such things. I just, personally, do not see much benefit compared to the negatives of going with that system unless it is accompanied with a systematic change in philosophy and methodology in how we monderate the forum as a whole which is simply not going to occur.
 
Frankly I'd rather have comparisons, because otherwise it seems everything would be cut and dried. You broke the rule, PERIOD, so you get "this punishment" without the context. Frankly I didn't know the mods were going to this much trouble. I'm a mod on an auto forum, and I don't think I've seen it taken to this level, looking other people's infractions, etc. Of course most of the problem on that site is spam from people trying to sell things in parts of the forum where it isn't allowed. Some of it has to do with people being jerks. I suspect and political forum was be a lot different.

In general, the first line is mod discretion and going with their best judgement. Now, longer standing mods or ones with memories that read like the dewey decimal system (Looking at you CC), sometimes will remember previous similar instances and will factor that in at the time. But typically the first blush at any action is going of the original mod judgement. (Though often, if a mod is unsure, they'll report it and allow discussion to begin early).

The more indepth tear down of the situation usually occurs either when a dispute occurs or when a Mod spots something in a report/infraction thread that they see right off as being questionable and start discussion themselves. That's typically when you get the whole team discussing, thinking, and debating over the issue.

Now, to be honest...many disputes get resolved pretty quick and cut and dry. I'm not joking when I suggest there are disputes where someone calls an individual a clear and obvious personal attacks and their reasoning for why it should be overturned is "Well he did it too!" or "If you did your jobs this wouldn't happen" or "The Rule is Dumb". Admittedly, the dispute process is quicker for those....as it should be. Someone else breaking a rule isn't an excuse, what so ever, for breaking the rules. You not LIKING the rules isn't an excuse for it. Things like that tend to go quick.

But there are instances where things are in a grey area and yeah...it's shocking sometimes how drawn out, in depth, and indeed at times very heated such threads can get.

And that's part of why the privacy is needed. While mods generally don't degree into slinging "You're a ****ing idiot" at each other ;), we definitely have our times where we can become VERY heated over an issue with some strong disagreements. However, having the privacy and the ability to do those arguments to come to a conclussion that the team agree's to muturally hold is integral to the method of how we operate the forum. Without being able to be open in such a fashion, which frankly would not happen with posters being involved, then mods can not fully fight for what they think is the right thing in an instance with the passion that it deserves because it is not an entirely safe and trustfilled setting.
 
Moderator's Warning:
There's a section for just ranting about Moderators. This isn't it. Perhaps you should be going there

Sorry, it wasn't my intent.
 
I think the biggest problem, if what you say is true and you're not just trying to make the dispute process seem better than it is, is that you go into way way WAY more detail that I was picturing. If you speak of this stuff in that great of detail then yea I guess a member couldn't see it.

I guess the underlying problem is the infraction confidentiality thing. I mean I guess I see not much in hiding that DWBH got a BFT infraction for calling Sharon an idiot. I know you've heard it before, but the more the regular pion members can see, the more we understand. That way we dont get all huffy thinking someone got away with something. I think just like your criminal record, your infraction history should be public. But thats for another thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom