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2012 Democratic National Convention, Sept 3-6, Dicussion Thread

Yes, it's the same dataset, but you showed the employment level at the end of January whereas Redress showed the net changes that occurred in January (December 2008 minus January 2009)



133561 - 134379 = -818


So what you are showing is 818,000 unemployed now you need to add the discouraged workers. Add the two together and see how that looks with the 2010 numbers which I am sure you will blame on Bush as well. I don't think there were 16 million unemployed/discouraged workers when Obama took office. Prove me wrong. I find it quite telling how liberals like you always look backwards and blame someone else for your own failures. How did that work out for you in real life?
 
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Re: Bill Clinton rips the GOP and sounded great doing it.

Well, until it is determined that Obama is a one term president or not, it's hard to determine if what he says is fact or not.

You wouldn't be equivocating, would you?
 
Re: Bill Clinton rips the GOP and sounded great doing it.

Clinton and Obama are both good speakers, no one questions their oratorial skills. The problem is that they are both liars and basically FOS.

Its the height of hypocrisy for a serial abuser of women to stand up and talk about women's rights,

Neither of them is as FOS as Paul Ryan and Romny and the rest of the far right teaparty....everytime they open their mouths and RICH MAN doesnt come out they are lieing
 
Re: Bill Clinton rips the GOP and sounded great doing it.

He didn't debunk anything he said in his speech. You know what a fact is, don't you?

Ok perhaps this praising of Romney by Clinton will be sufficient :)

 
It is from the same dataset, but it is not the same data kinda thing. It is derived data.
Nobody claimed it was the "same data" - I questioned your claim that the two statistics were "entirely different."

Why do you have to put words in other people's mouths? Can't you argue against what other people actually say? Is honesty that hard?
 
It is very hard to see a path to victory for Mitt Romney after how these conventions have been going.

At this point in the election, there are practically no undecideds left at all. We have had a series of huge events like Obama's executive order on immigration or the shocking Republican "legitimate rape" craziness or the study that showed that Romney's tax plan raises taxes on the middle class to lower them on the rich or the selection of Ryan as his running mate. Each one of those, many people on both sides predicted would totally change the election. After Obama's executive order, for example, there were people predicting a 15% bump for Romney and there were people predicting a 15% bump for Obama. But in each of those cases, the needle barely moved. The reality is that most people who still don't know which of the candidates they prefer aren't going to vote and very few people are going to switch from one side to the other.


So, the needle is pretty much where it is going to be on election day. So, if the needle stays where it is, what happens? Obama wins by a significant margin. The popular vote would slightly favor Obama, but the electoral college would dramatically favor Obama. The Republicans' problem is that their supporters are too packed in to red states. Obama is currently winning almost all the swing states in the polls.

But, that isn't the whole story because polls measure how people would vote if they showed up to vote. They aren't good at predicting turnout. Far more people say they will vote than actually show up when it actually comes down to it. So, the one fear Democrats had left was that they could suffer from an enthusiasm gap. That was a bit of a longshot anyways. Romney is one of the least liked presidential candidates in a long time. His own base was generally against him in the primaries and now is only begrudgingly on board. But still, you have to worry. With all the conspiracy theories and whatnot on the right, maybe they'd get themselves so worked up about crazy stuff that they really would show up to vote in larger numbers. But the conventions have put that fear to rest. The enthusiasm at the Democratic convention, and more importantly, the enthusiasm created by the incredibly successful, inspiring, passionate, broad, convention has been unbelievable. Comparing the two conventions side by side it is utterly obvious that the Democrats are far more pumped up than the Republicans about this election. The Republicans more or less lacked a message. People were generally bored by their convention. On the other hand, the Democrats have been ecstatic about the convention. All the real, core, moral and economic reasons that we are Democrats were brought right to the surface eloquently and forcefully. Practically every Democrat in the country is more amped up about the election now than they've ever been and Republicans are flipping the channel off the news and back to their usual programming.

This election is over.
 
It is very hard to see a path to victory for Mitt Romney after how these conventions have been going.

At this point in the election, there are practically no undecideds left at all. We have had a series of huge events like Obama's executive order on immigration or the shocking Republican "legitimate rape" craziness or the study that showed that Romney's tax plan raises taxes on the middle class to lower them on the rich or the selection of Ryan as his running mate. Each one of those, many people on both sides predicted would totally change the election. After Obama's executive order, for example, there were people predicting a 15% bump for Romney and there were people predicting a 15% bump for Obama. But in each of those cases, the needle barely moved. The reality is that most people who still don't know which of the candidates they prefer aren't going to vote and very few people are going to switch from one side to the other.


So, the needle is pretty much where it is going to be on election day. So, if the needle stays where it is, what happens? Obama wins by a significant margin. The popular vote would slightly favor Obama, but the electoral college would dramatically favor Obama. The Republicans' problem is that their supporters are too packed in to red states. Obama is currently winning almost all the swing states in the polls.

But, that isn't the whole story because polls measure how people would vote if they showed up to vote. They aren't good at predicting turnout. Far more people say they will vote than actually show up when it actually comes down to it. So, the one fear Democrats had left was that they could suffer from an enthusiasm gap. That was a bit of a longshot anyways. Romney is one of the least liked presidential candidates in a long time. His own base was generally against him in the primaries and now is only begrudgingly on board. But still, you have to worry. With all the conspiracy theories and whatnot on the right, maybe they'd get themselves so worked up about crazy stuff that they really would show up to vote in larger numbers. But the conventions have put that fear to rest. The enthusiasm at the Democratic convention, and more importantly, the enthusiasm created by the incredibly successful, inspiring, passionate, broad, convention has been unbelievable. Comparing the two conventions side by side it is utterly obvious that the Democrats are far more pumped up than the Republicans about this election. The Republicans more or less lacked a message. People were generally bored by their convention. On the other hand, the Democrats have been ecstatic about the convention. All the real, core, moral and economic reasons that we are Democrats were brought right to the surface eloquently and forcefully. Practically every Democrat in the country is more amped up about the election now than they've ever been and Republicans are flipping the channel off the news and back to their usual programming.

This election is over.

Spoken like that good little Obama robot who buys the rhetoric and ignores the results. Why anyone would support someone with the economic record of Obama's is beyond me but you continue to vote based upon rhetoric and not results. That probably has a lot to do with the disastrous fiscal shape of your state. Now you want to spread that misery equaly to everyone else.
 
Re: DNC Convention delegates show that the party

If there's one thing that Stewart and his team are good at, it's pointing out hypocrisy and being hilarious while doing it.


Although I'm personally fine with excluding anti-science folks.

"I would never call a redneck a name." :lamo Sometimes you just can't make this **** up.
 
It is very hard to see a path to victory for Mitt Romney after how these conventions have been going.

And in your opinion how could the disaster of booing God even compare to the worst of the RNC?

the shocking Republican "legitimate rape" craziness

Yes how shocking that ONE Republican said something profoundly stupid on the subject...And heaven forbid that the man wants to save unborn lives!!!!!!!!!


the study that showed that Romney's tax plan raises taxes on the middle class to lower them on the rich

which study was this?Please provide a credible link :)

or the selection of Ryan as his running mate.

The selection of Ryan was the reason the polls started going in Romney's direction in the first place lol


the rest of your post wasn't even worth picking apart and pointing out the flaws.
 
Spoken like that good little Obama robot who buys the rhetoric and ignores the results. Why anyone would support someone with the economic record of Obama's is beyond me but you continue to vote based upon rhetoric and not results. That probably has a lot to do with the disastrous fiscal shape of your state. Now you want to spread that misery equaly to everyone else.

Conservative, I get that you're in the block that supports the Republican Party. Like I said, you aren't going to change camp. All the "facts" you think you know are false and you automatically ignore any actual facts because you have conspiracy theories all worked out for when you encounter facts that contradict your assumptions. There isn't any point in trying to persuade you. You've completely walled yourself off from reality. But Obama's chances don't depend on convincing people like you. Like I said- the needle isn't going to move. You, and those like you, will stay in the Romney camp no matter what happens.

But, there are more people, especially in swing states, that are in the Obama camp, and they're more amped up about the election than the people in your camp. How convinced you are that all your conspiracy theories are true and whatnot isn't what determines the election. It is how many people you have in your camp, which states they are in, and their turnout that matter.
 
And in your opinion how could the disaster of booing God even compare to the worst of the RNC?

Seriously lol? They boo'd putting a religious plank in the platform of a major political party, they didn't "boo God"... Obviously you know that, so why are you playing dumb?

Yes how shocking that ONE Republican said something profoundly stupid on the subject...And heaven forbid that the man wants to save unborn lives!!!!!!!!!

One Republican? The bill to redefine rape exactly the same way Akin thinks it should be redefined was introduced by Akin in the House a year and a half ago. EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN voted for it. Paul Ryan was the co-sponsor. The RNC voted to add a plank into their platform saying that the government should force rape and incest victims to have the babies of their attackers the very day that Akin announced he would be staying on as your candidate for senate.

which study was this?Please provide a credible link :)

See, this is why the needle doesn't move. The folks on the right have their heads buried so firmly in the sand that they aren't even aware of things that happen in the real world. Even things like this that were major front page stories all across the media for many days... It just boggles the mind that you would be unaware of what is one of the most central facts in the election, but there you are..

http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/upload/Romney-Tax-Plan_March-1-2.pdf
 
Re: Bill Clinton rips the GOP and sounded great doing it.

He didn't debunk anything he said in his speech. You know what a fact is, don't you?

Yep and there weren't any to be found within Clinton's long boring speech

Clinton was disbarred for perjury. Why should anyone believe a word he says, especially when he's desperately trying to spin a failed presidency.
 
Re: Bill Clinton rips the GOP and sounded great doing it.

How many men would have lied about the same thing.

I wouldn't lie, under oath. Us common folks go to jail over that crap.

[/b]He should have never had to be under oath in the first place. What he has sex with is between him and Hillary. If the right wingers had not made it into a witch hunt they would not have been lied to in the first place. Americans sure are a bunch of prudes when it comes to sex too bad they were not that way about violence.


But, he was...and he broke the law.
 
I can't believe the amount of partisanship shown on this thread. Both candidates seem to be pretty moderate when you think about it. With that said as of right now I support Obama because the current republican party is far too uncompromising and for the most part won't even admit to being partly responsible for the 2008 financial crisis. The primary debates of course didn't help much either. I don't doubt Romney's ability to do the job. But it is obvious that purely right leaning policies won't do the job and I doubt whether Romney is capable of distancing himself from the republican base.
 
Seriously lol? They boo'd putting a religious plank in the platform of a major political party, they didn't "boo God"... Obviously you know that, so why are you playing dumb?

that was the impression given.


One Republican? The bill to redefine rape exactly the same way Akin thinks it should be redefined was introduced by Akin in the House a year and a half ago. EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN voted for it. Paul Ryan was the co-sponsor. The RNC voted to add a plank into their platform saying that the government should force rape and incest victims to have the babies of their attackers the very day that Akin announced he would be staying on as your candidate for senate.

try again

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...use-members-tried-redefine-rape-democratic-r/

FactCheck.org : Day 2: More Convention Canards



See, this is why the needle doesn't move. The folks on the right have their heads buried so firmly in the sand that they aren't even aware of things that happen in the real world. Even things like this that were major front page stories all across the media for many days... It just boggles the mind that you would be unaware of what is one of the most central facts in the election, but there you are..

LMAO apparently there's much you need to learn also :)


apparently not everyone agree with the left leaning tax policy center...

How the Tax Policy Center could improve its Romney tax study | AEIdeas

FactCheck.org : Democratic Disinformation from Charlotte
 
Conservative, I get that you're in the block that supports the Republican Party. Like I said, you aren't going to change camp. All the "facts" you think you know are false and you automatically ignore any actual facts because you have conspiracy theories all worked out for when you encounter facts that contradict your assumptions. There isn't any point in trying to persuade you. You've completely walled yourself off from reality. But Obama's chances don't depend on convincing people like you. Like I said- the needle isn't going to move. You, and those like you, will stay in the Romney camp no matter what happens.

But, there are more people, especially in swing states, that are in the Obama camp, and they're more amped up about the election than the people in your camp. How convinced you are that all your conspiracy theories are true and whatnot isn't what determines the election. It is how many people you have in your camp, which states they are in, and their turnout that matter.

I am a results oriented individual and one who accepts personal responsibility. That is why the Democratic Party has left me. If the facts are wrong, then prove them wrong. My facts come from non partisan sites not MSNBC. Please prove that there aren't 23 plus million unemployed/under employed/discouraged workers in this country today, not 1 in 6 Americans below the poverty level, 48 million people on food stamps, 1.7% GDP growth, a $5000 drop in Median income. I await your proof?

You buy rhetoric and that has led to failures.
 
though I have to agree that booing the religious wording in front of national television was really not a good idea. But I don't think people should make that big of a deal out of this. They were booing the use of religious wording in the party platform to question the vote that was just counted.
 
Yes but those facts are just facts if you cannot connect them to the president's policies. I really wish people would look more at how a president's policies affect the economy than how the economy is doing in his term in office. You should also probably put each of those facts in context or they are generally meaningless. For example a $5000 drop in Median income would not necessarily be an argument if that was from when he first took office. After all the economy then was going downhill.
 
Yes but those facts are just facts if you cannot connect them to the president's policies. I really wish people would look more at how a president's policies affect the economy than how the economy is doing in his term in office. You should also probably put each of those facts in context or they are generally meaningless. For example a $5000 drop in Median income would not necessarily be an argument if that was from when he first took office. After all the economy then was going downhill.

The problem is the results are today, four years later. When exactly does the economy and the economic results become Obama's responsibility? When would they become yours in a new job?
 
that was the impression given.

No lol. Nobody thought they were "booing God"... That's something right wingers PRETEND that they thought, but obviously even you guys actually know that isn't true, right?


Nope, fail. The Republican platform now includes support for a constitutional amendment that does not give exceptions for rape or incest. Period. Sure, they didn't say right in their platform like "plank 19- make rape victims have their rapist's babies" lol... But that's the effect of a constitutional amendment banning abortion that has no exception for rape or incest. Which is precisely what the bill to redefine rape was about- removing coverage for rape victims unless they were beaten in addition to being raped. Both of those links are finding false overblown simplistic slogans, but the reality of what the GOP is aiming to do on the front is absolutely clear.


Clinton summarized it best in his speech at the convention. Given what Romney has said- that he would cut taxes for the rich, but make up for it by eliminating deductions, leads to one of three possible scenarios:

1) He cuts so many deductions that the middle class ends up paying more. If you flat out take him at his word- that he would cut the tax rates the amount he says he would and that he would eliminate enough deductions that it would not reduce revenue- then that is the only possibility. That is the outcome the tax policy center is outlining, and frankly, it is just some very basic math.

2) He lied and his tax plan won't actually be revenue neutral. Instead, he will make up the gap with brutal spending cuts on the things the middle class relies on- basically just a backdoor way to accomplish the same thing as in #1- raising the money by taking it from the middle class.

3) He lied and he will just explode the deficit. Rather than either cutting spending or deductions enough to keep it revenue neutral, he will just borrow a lot more money. Realistically, this is most likely what he would actually do.
 
The problem is the results are today, four years later. When exactly does the economy and the economic results become Obama's responsibility? When would they become yours in a new job?

It became the president's responsibility from the moment he walked into the white house. But fixing the worst financial crisis since the great depression is no easy task. The fact of the matter is the economy was going downhill then. But is slowly climbing up right now. I agree that it is nowhere near as it was before the crisis. I also know that obama can't solely be attributed to this improvement, but I also suggest that he can't solely be attributed to the slow recovery either. That's why I suggest looking at the specific things he has done and how they affected the economy.
 
I am a results oriented individual

If you're results oriented, how do you reconcile your support for the Republican party with the following facts:

1) Almost twice as many private sector jobs have been created in the last 51 years when Democrats have been in the whitehouse as when Republicans have been even though Republicans have had more years to do it.
2) The GDP has grown at an average of 2.78% with Democrats in the whitehouse, but only 1.64% with Republicans in the whitehouse ever since WW2.
3) States that have been consistently led by Democrats have achieved a median income a shocking $10k higher on average than states that have been consistently led by Republicans.
4) The stock market has grown at almost FIVE TIMES the rate under Democrats as it has under Republicans for 85 years now.
5) The debt has grown more under Republican presidents than under Democratic presidents.
6) The last Republican president we had started two wars and the current Democratic president ended two wars.
7) Health care costs have been rising more slowly since Obamacare was enacted than ever in the past 50 years.

The "results" you say you're looking at aren't results, they're just the current condition of the country. The entire world is experiencing a recession right now. The US is weathering it far better than almost any other first world countries. What you're saying just boils down to "I vote for the opposite party during recessions" which isn't the same thing as being results oriented at all. In fact, when the recession started not during a Democratic administration, but during a Republican one, that is the opposite of being results oriented.
 
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