1 week... 7 witnesses... Let's review...

[AlfredENeuman]

In his account he looked about for a visible address first.

Not as he hung up.

Zimmerman: This is asphalt and, ah…So I walked straight through to see if there was a street sign that I could tell dispatch
Singleton: Um hum.
Zimmerman: where I lost sight of him then. And when I walked back, that’s when he came out of the darkness and I guess he was upset that I called the police.
Singleton: So this is behind the house that he comes out of the darkness?
Zimmerman: I…yes, ma’am.
Singleton: Behind the building? OK, and you said there’s some bushes or something…
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: That he may have came out of? OK.
Zimmerman: Because when I walked past, I didn’t see him down here. I went, so I walked through to make sure…You know, I looked to make sure he wasn’t there.
Singleton: Right.
Zimmerman: And then I walked straight through to see a street sign and then when I came back obviously he was waiting somewhere.

Explain to me how he's on the phone with NEN, does this, never tells them an address, never tells them a street name, and still accounts for two missing minutes?

 

[Grim17]

Incorrect. Z's own video walk thorugh gives us a fairly good timeline of how and when events happened.

The problem is they don't line up with any of the witnesses.

Looks like I have to repeat myself...

If you really believe that a man who was attacked, had his nose broken, and was pinned down and beaten, is a reliable source for judging the total time of the altercation from start to finish, or you believe he should have been a reliable time source for that altercation, then you've either been nipping at the cooking sherry, or your hopelessly blinded by your bias.


Now can we get back on topic please?

 

[Excon]

Not as he hung up.

That is where he hung up.

Explain to me how he's on the phone with NEN, does this, never tells them an address, never tells them a street name, and still accounts for two missing minutes?

:lamo iLOL
I do not need to explain your delusions to you.
There is no missing minutes.

Funny thing how in the walk-through, Zimmerman says while on the sidewalk being beaten, he tried to sit up, which is exactly what John testified to.

 

[year2late]

iLOL
:lamo:lamo:lamo
And what are you going to provide to the Judge as law to back up your request?

I think you folks watch to much Police Dramas.
Please provide the law that allows the supposed victims records, let alone, a family member's account records, to be subpenaed. :doh

The cell phone that probably belonged to the victim of a homicide should be enough.

 

[spanky]

Looks like I have to repeat myself...

If you really believe that a man who was attacked, had his nose broken, and was pinned down and beaten, is a reliable source for judging the total time of the altercation from start to finish, or you believe he should have been a reliable time source for that altercation, then you've either been nipping at the cooking sherry, or your hopelessly blinded by your bias.


Now can we get back on topic please?

He was pretty sharp about everything else. How do you think the jury will see that?

 

[What if...?]

If you really believe that a man who was attacked, had his nose broken, and was pinned down and beaten, is a reliable source for judging the total time of the altercation from start to finish, or you believe he should have been a reliable time source for that altercation, then you've either been nipping at the cooking sherry, or your hopelessly blinded by your bias.


Now can we get back on topic please?

I was answering YOUR question, so how could it be off topic?

 

[buck]

That is your emotional blindness for ™ speaking, as everything he said is possible within the time line.
And as for trap? iLOL :doh There is no trap.

Most likely not. However, they see how the trial is going so far and have to look for some sort of bright side. Next week, if the prosecution goes really well, they'll either say the trap was sprung or they'll forget all about this trap nonsense.

 

[buck]

No, I said he rolled over. He could have rolled over in pain right after being shot and when Zimmerman stood up.

Do you really think that matters in relation to what we are talking about? Does it matter if Trayvon rolled over in pain after the shot or if George rolled Trayvon over when he got out from under him? In either circumstance, placing the shell casing in relation to a body that had moved does not work for what you want to claim it works for.

 

[What if...?]

Most likely not. However, they see how the trial is going so far and have to look for some sort of bright side. Next week, if the prosecution goes really well, they'll either say the trap was sprung or they'll forget all about this trap nonsense.

I don't know what everybody was hoping for.

There never was anything in the witness testimony for the pross.

Maybe a couple minor details to impeach Zs testimony, but nothing of moment.

Nobody saw the start.

And the start is where the "meat" is.

How much responsibility does Z have for the altercation he found himself in.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

Do you really think that matters in relation to what we are talking about? Does it matter if Trayvon rolled over in pain after the shot or if George rolled Trayvon over when he got out from under him? In either circumstance, placing the shell casing in relation to a body that had moved does not work for what you want to claim it works for.

It does if the shell casing is still far enough south that there's no reason for it to be there.

Look, let's look at the possibilities.

1. Martin was on top, Zimmerman pushes him over to the right. How does he land face down in such a way that he's moved not only off the sidewalk, but several feet off the sidewalk (towards Zimmerman's feet) and then PAST where the casing should be. Can you explain how that's possible?
2. Martin is on the bottom already west of the sidewalk, as the witnesses say. Zimmerman shoots, the casing goes to the right. Martin rolls over to the right. In this scenario, he would have been right on top of the casing. Yet he wasn't, since the casing is actually south of his body even after the rollover.
3. Martin is on the bottom already west of the sidewalk, and Zimmerman rolled him over to the left, in which case the casing would still be south of the body.

Please explain how, with Zimmerman on the sidewalk as John Good saw, with both of their heads on the sidewalk, how Martin ended up both face down and by Zimmerman's feet? I can draw you a picture if you like. But we have to be able to put pieces of evidence together. Zimmerman claims he was on the western grass and John Good saw them up on the sidewalk, so we can put them both there, heads facing north east. Mr. O'Mara even tried to claim that Martin had his back to the patio. Martin was found west of the sidewalk by several feet HEAD FIRST. And even in Zimmerman's walkthrough he had no explanation for how any of that happened. I find it much more plausible that Martin died where he was shot, was not shot while on top of the sidewalk, and the person who was on top is the person who stood up. And the forensics backs this up. The only way you get out of this is to say that the body moved by something like 6 feet after the shot in a way that makes no sense.

I don't find this convincing.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

I neglected to say why option #4 wouldn't work.

If both people were facing north-east, on the sidewalk and Zimmerman rolled him over to the left of him, he'd have moved over ONTO the sidewalk, which is nowhere close to where he ended up.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

That is where he hung up.



:lamo iLOL
I do not need to explain your delusions to you.
There is no missing minutes.

Funny thing how in the walk-through, Zimmerman says while on the sidewalk being beaten, he tried to sit up, which is exactly what John testified to.

You're very boring. You should let Buck and Grim do all the talking.

 

[buck]

It does if the shell casing is still far enough south that there's no reason for it to be there.

It can't tell you anything, as you have no idea which way Trayvon was pushed after George got out from under or which way the first responders rolled the body. Yeesh. Your trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. No matter how hard you hit it, it's not going to fit. The conclusion you are after, can not be determined based on the information we currently have.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

It can't tell you anything, as you have no idea which way Trayvon was pushed after George got out from under or which way the first responders rolled the body. Yeesh. Your trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. No matter how hard you hit it, it's not going to fit. The conclusion you are after, can not be determined based on the information we currently have.

Listen, I suggest you actually get down on the floor and see if you can do the following things (have someone sit on you).

1. With them straddling your hips, reach down and grab a gun by your right hip.
2. With them straddling, pin their hand with your elbow, then reach your right hip.
3. With them straddling, and your head and torso on an imaginary sidewalk, have them pretend to be shot and move in such a way that their head moves to 6 feet from the sidewalk with their feet behind them and their head still facing you.

None of this is possible, yet this is his story. What is much more plausible is that after John Good went inside, Zimmerman, who was TRAINING NINE HOURS A WEEK IN MMA FIGHTING, flipped Martin off and got on top. At this point, they were back on grass where the body was found. He shot him from on top. The evidence shows this.

I'll even give you some more evidence: Zimmerman's bloody head.

Look at the way the streaks are going. They are going back to front. From the wound to his cheeks. The blood is not smeared at all like it would if he were having it repeatedly smashed. This corroborates what I'm saying. He hit his head when they were on the sidewalk, but before it really started bleeding he got up again and they swapped positions and that's what people saw.

The witnesses agree. The blood agrees. The body agrees. The shell casing agrees. The only thing that says otherwise is Zimmerman. And when the state gets to demonstrating his untruthfulness, then the evidence won't be in his favor any more.

I'll say it again, the state could botch this and not present good witnesses or fail to convince a jury, but I think the evidence is there for a conviction.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

One last item about the timeline and why this is a huge problem for Zimmerman. It's very helpful to go back to his initial interviews and match up the timeline.

http://216.58.158.174/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/serino31.pdf

Take a look at this exchange:

Serino: Where you at now?
Zimmerman:On Retreat View Circle, I think.
Serino:OK.
(plays tape 2:47 to 3:06)
Serino: What are you doing right now?
Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.
Serino:OK.

Ok, so let's match that up with the times that we know.

The phone call ends with NEN at 7:13:41.

The length of the tape is 4:03.

Serino:OK, you’re walking back to your car?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir,
(plays tape 2:48 to 4:03 )
Zimmerman: I’m thumping the damn flashlight as I was walking through.
(call ends)
Singleton:How long is that?
Serino: It’s 84 seconds. From the point where you were walking back to your car from Retreat
View to Twin Tree basically.

This means that if we subtract 84 seconds from 7:13:41, Zimmerman claimed he was already walking back to his truck at exactly 7:12:17.

The call with Rachel Jeantel doesn't end until 7:16:00 at the earliest and the first 911 call happens at 7:16:11.

7:12:17
7:16:11

Does anyone deny this is a problem for the defense?

 

[buck]

Listen, I suggest you actually get down on the floor and see if you can do the following things (have someone sit on you).

1. With them straddling your hips, reach down and grab a gun by your right hip.
2. With them straddling, pin their hand with your elbow, then reach your right hip.
3. With them straddling, and your head and torso on an imaginary sidewalk, have them pretend to be shot and move in such a way that their head moves to 6 feet from the sidewalk with their feet behind them and their head still facing you.

The first 2 are very possible. I've already tried it and so has one of the ops here.

As for #3, you have no way of knowing exactly where they both were at the time the shot occurred. Apparently, per Manalo, they moved towards the sidewalk, which supports George's claim that his head was hit on the sidewalk. John then went inside and according to George, he scooted down to get off the sidewalk. So, basically what this tells us, is you have zero idea where they both were at the moment of the shot.

None of this is possible, yet this is his story. What is much more plausible is that after John Good went inside, Zimmerman, who was TRAINING NINE HOURS A WEEK IN MMA FIGHTING, flipped Martin off and got on top. At this point, they were back on grass where the body was found. He shot him from on top. The evidence shows this.

The forensics will almost certainly prove this is not what occurred. They will prove that George was on the bottom when Trayvon was shot. This has already been confirmed by a forensic expert (outside of the trial) and they did not even include the fact that a full can of watermelon drink was weighing the shirt down - causing an even bigger discrepancy for the bullet hole between Trayvon's shirts.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

The first 2 are very possible. I've already tried it and so has one of the ops here.

Well, I've tried it as well and I question your assertion that it's possible. I found it completely impossible.

Any comment on my assessment of the times above?

I think this is a big problem for Mr. Zimmerman.

 

[buck]

Well, I've tried it as well and I question your assertion that it's possible. I found it completely impossible.

Nope, i'll let someone else review that one.

I was only interested in your round peg/square hole not based on any facts but just what you want to believe happened.

 

[mike2810]

Well, I've tried it as well and I question your assertion that it's possible. I found it completely impossible.

Any comment on my assessment of the times above?

I think this is a big problem for Mr. Zimmerman.

well now. we have one saying possible and one saying not possible.
translate that to if you both were on the jury = reasonalbe doubt/hung jury.
Why, becuase two people cannot agree.

So far the State , imo, has not proven their case for M2.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

Nope, i'll let someone else review that one.

I was only interested in your round peg/square hole not based on any facts but just what you want to believe happened.

well now. we have one saying possible and one saying not possible.
translate that to if you both were on the jury = reasonalbe doubt/hung jury.
Why, becuase two people cannot agree.

So far the State , imo, has not proven their case for M2.

I don't think I'm doing this, and just to test it, I tried it out with Mrs. Neuman. This is not possible and I believe the state will bring in actors to show this.

How about answering my question about times? I believe that I've shown that Zimmerman has about four minutes of unaccounted for time here. Can you explain what you think he was doing here? I posted his actual interview transcript to show that as of 7:12:17, he claims he was already walking back to his truck. Yet Rachel Jeantel hears him meet up with Martin some four minutes later, and the first 911 call happens at 7:16:11. Care to guess how the defense will spin this?

 

[mike2810]

I don't think I'm doing this, and just to test it, I tried it out with Mrs. Neuman. This is not possible and I believe the state will bring in actors to show this.

How about answering my question about times? I believe that I've shown that Zimmerman has about four minutes of unaccounted for time here. Can you explain what you think he was doing here? I posted his actual interview transcript to show that as of 7:12:17, he claims he was already walking back to his truck. Yet Rachel Jeantel hears him meet up with Martin some four minutes later, and the first 911 call happens at 7:16:11. Care to guess how the defense will spin this?

at this point I am not going dig into your timeline. I will wait to see if the prosecution bring up any problems in timelines.

I try to stick with what has been brought in as evidence to date in the trial. That is what will make or break GZ case.

 

[buck]

I don't think I'm doing this, and just to test it, I tried it out with Mrs. Neuman. This is not possible and I believe the state will bring in actors to show this.

Sounds like you are doing it wrong. Keep in mind, he only has to trap the arm for a short period. The state will not bring in actors.

 

[Grim17]

The call with Rachel Jeantel doesn't end until 7:16:00 at the earliest and the first 911 call happens at 7:16:11.

You know, I've found over the years that when someone knowingly uses flawed or incorrect information to prop up their position, it's because their position is also flawed and incorrect... You know you can't use Martin's phone records to establish when the confrontation happened, because you have no way of knowing how long his phone layed in the grass before it disconnected.

But I do however agree with you, that the unaccounted for time might present a problem for the defense... Actually, it's pretty much the only damned thing I've seen that could present a problem for Zimmerman. Even if it's never explained by him, or his lawyers, I don't think that it will come anywhere close to erasing the reasonable doubt that's already been established... It might very well cost him some credibility in the jury's eyes, but luckily for him it doesn't directly impact whether or not he acted in self defense according to Florida law.

 

[Grim17]

None of this is possible, yet this is his story.

Are you actually claiming that those things are scientifically proven to be physical impossibilities?

The way I see it, you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

You know, I've found over the years that when someone knowingly uses flawed or incorrect information to prop up their position, it's because their position is also flawed and incorrect... You know you can't use Martin's phone records to establish when the confrontation happened, because you have no way of knowing how long his phone layed in the grass before it disconnected.

We only know what we can glean from the limited evidence. We have the phone records. We have Rachel's testimony. We know she tried to call back at 7:17:30 or thereabouts. We know the first 9:11 call happened very soon afterwards. We have witnesses who put the times close to there.

But I do however agree with you, that the unaccounted for time might present a problem for the defense... Actually, it's pretty much the only damned thing I've seen that could present a problem for Zimmerman. Even if it's never explained by him, or his lawyers, I don't think that it will come anywhere close to erasing the reasonable doubt that's already been established... It might very well cost him some credibility in the jury's eyes, but luckily for him it doesn't directly impact whether or not he acted in self defense according to Florida law.

We're trying to figure out what happened, right? And part of that is figuring out where people were at given times. Zimmerman has no account of this missing time and in fact lied about it several times. It's logical to assume that he continued his search and covered it up. It doesn't go to self-defense per se, but it goes to his character and credibility. We're testing his story, and even you agree that this part of it doesn't add up. Let's see what we get this coming week.