1 week... 7 witnesses... Let's review...

[buck]

iLOL
:lamo:lamo:lamo
And what are you going to provide to the Judge as law to back up your request?

I think you folks watch to much Police Dramas.
Please provide the law that allows the supposed victims records, let alone, a family member's account records, to be subpenaed. :doh

That has to be exactly what it is. These people have done this sort of things many times. early on they couldn't understand how Trayvon wasn't covered in blood from the bullet wound. Too many movies is the only possible explanation.

 

[Grim17]

This is only true if you add seconds to the timeline just because. We know when he hung up. We know when Martin's call cut off and we have the tesimony of Jeantel to back it up. The facts are the facts. There's two minutes of unaccounted for time for a guy who claims he was walking back to his truck.

We don't know when Martin's phone disconnected, but we do know when Jenna's 911 call was picked up, and we know based on her testimony how long it took from the decision to call until the time they picked up... So what you have is no more than a minute and a half.

I agree with you that the majority of that minute and a half is unaccounted for, but there is no theory that could fit with that time line, is corroborated by any physical evidence, and matches up with the eye witness testimony... That minute and a half could have vanished for any number of unknown reasons. I just don't see it's significance in determining whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense...

 

[AlfredENeuman]

First you ask nicely in the beginning of the investigation. If the family refuses....have a judge sign off on it. An unarmed minor was shot dead for goodness sake.

Absolutely. So even with the most uncharitable characterizations of Tracy Martin, the police had ample opportunity to check the cell phone and completely dropped the ball. You cannot blame the family for a **** up this bad.

 

[buck]

We know Zimmerman flipped him because he said so and because the wound is in the chest.

Great. Now do you realize that no one saw Zimm "flip" Martin because no one saw the moment of the shot or the immediate aftermath?

Some saw before the shot - with Martin on top - and some saw after the shot with Zimmerman on top.

So, Zimmerman flipped the body and the first responder flipped the body. You can not take the location of the shell casing in relation to the body anymore. The best we can do is take the location in relation to the rest of the evidence. The casing was to the north of both the flashlight and the cell phone.

 

[What if...?]

We don't know when Martin's phone disconnected, but we do know when Jenna's 911 call was picked up, and we know based on her testimony how long it took from the decision to call until the time they picked up... So what you have is no more than a minute and a half.

I agree with you that the majority of that minute and a half is unaccounted for, but there is no theory that could fit with that time line, is corroborated by any physical evidence, and matches up with the eye witness testimony... That minute and a half could have vanished for any number of unknown reasons. I just don't see it's significance in determining whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense...

Zs self defense claim is based on his account.

His truthfullness is germaine.

I'm sure he's at least fibbing about how it went down.

Covering something up.

Something between getting out of his truck and the shooting.

And that lie required other lies, as usually happens.

We'll see when the pross get down to reenacting the event for the jury.

 

[sharon]

Look, based on the witness testimony thus far it appears that the confrontation took place exactly where Zimmerman said it did. There isn't enough spare time in that for any kind of mysterious, untold activity to have taken place that would turn this case on it's head. So I'm guessing that Georges perception of time and everything else was altered after he got his clock cleaned with the broken nose punch, and it was a much slower progression from the "T" to the location of the shot... Worse case scenario that I can see here, is that Z was taking his time getting back to his truck after he hung up with police, hoping to catch a glimpse of where Martin ran off too so he could inform the cops when they arrived, and he didn't tell them about it because he felt stupid about it.

The point is, the witnesses have pretty much nailed down where the thing started, so at this point, that possible 1 to 2 minutes that isn't accounted for doesn't really mean a whole lot without any evidence of testimony that would indicate the confrontation was any different that Zimmerman said it was.

None of the ear/eye witness were particularly valuable to either side.. with Rachel being the most awkward and authentic.

 

[spanky]

Yes, I;m sure that's where he believed it ended, because it wasn't like he was there or something? Come on man, enough with the nit-picking of words.





Look, I only gave Zimmerman an extra 15 seconds of dinking around time and even if you toss that out, you're still only looking at a minute and a half, not 2-3 minutes. Since we have no Idea when the call from Martin to the girl actually disconnected, I used the time of the 911 call from Jenna, and the time she said it took from her deciding to call, until the operator answered. Do the math, it isnt difficult:

7:13:41 Z ends call to police + 40 seconds walk time from RVC to the "T" = 7:14:21 arrival at "T" based of Zimmerman's story

7:16:11 operator picks up Jenna's 911 call - Jenna's 30 seconds action time = 7:15:41 when Jenna decides to call 911

That leaves 1:20 and I didn't even account for the time from first blow, until Jenna decided she needed to call 911.

On Z's video walk through it takes him 21 seconds to get from RVC to the point at the T where he says TM confronted him....on a sunny day. It was raining that night, if anything Z would have picked up his pace, maybe jogged.

"That leaves 1:20 and I didn't even account for the time from first blow, until Jenna decided she needed to call 911."

What "first blow", the one Z alleges? Heheh...

 

[AlfredENeuman]

We don't know when Martin's phone disconnected, but we do know when Jenna's 911 call was picked up, and we know based on her testimony how long it took from the decision to call until the time they picked up... So what you have is no more than a minute and a half.

Yes we do. It was no sooner that 7:16:00.

I agree with you that the majority of that minute and a half is unaccounted for, but there is no theory that could fit with that time line, is corroborated by any physical evidence, and matches up with the eye witness testimony... That minute and a half could have vanished for any number of unknown reasons. I just don't see it's significance in determining whether or not Zimmerman acted in self defense...

Now we're seeing the prosecution's strategy here. They put on ALL of the eye witnesses so now we have a pretty good idea of what happened, where it happened, and when it happened. We know when Zimmerman hung up. We know when Martin disconnected.

And what we're left with is Mr. Zimmerman's story, and the next phase will be comparing that story to what we all see is what really happened. This is why, by the way, I think Rachel's testimony was far more effective that people seem to think. Notice that we're all pretty much in agreement now on the fact that she was truly on the phone with Martin and heard the start of the fight. That's locking in the timeline and locations. Notice also that she says Martin was standing by the mail kiosk for a while, and didn't simply walk by it. Notice the prosecution put in surveillance video from the clubhouse. This is going to mess up Zimmerman's timeline.

But in his story, at 7:13:41, he walked immediately back to his truck. But as even you point out, that's impossible, since the times don't match up. So he did something else until 7:16:00 which is when the fight actually started. Otherwise, there's no way a person walking back to his truck couldn't cross 30 feet in two minutes, unless they weren't walking back to their truck. And if he didn't walk back to his truck and instead kept looking for Martin, this means he's lied to everyone for a year.

 

[Grim17]

How much time was there between Z ending his NEN call and the shot heard on 911? That's all that matters.

Why is that all that matters?

There has never been any determination of exactly how long it took from the time the 2 of them confronted each other, until the shot was fired, so that's not relevant. The only one who gave any kind of estimate was Jane, and beside her being vague and saying "A couple of minutes... no more than 5", we know that it couldn't have been that long anyway. That's why I used Jenna's 911 call for reference.

Now can we please get back on topic here?

 

[AlfredENeuman]

Great. Now do you realize that no one saw Zimm "flip" Martin because no one saw the moment of the shot or the immediate aftermath?

Some saw before the shot - with Martin on top - and some saw after the shot with Zimmerman on top.

So, Zimmerman flipped the body and the first responder flipped the body. You can not take the location of the shell casing in relation to the body anymore. The best we can do is take the location in relation to the rest of the evidence. The casing was to the north of both the flashlight and the cell phone.

No one saw him flip in a way that would be clear, like the person on top falling over, the person on the bottom getting up and leaping over to straddle the victim. What they did see, was the person on top, rising up after the shot. Whether or not martin rolled on the ground would not be nearly as visible to someone looking from the side. While doing the whole "swap" thing would. This is actually really basic.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

No one saw him flip in a way that would be clear, like the person on top falling over, the person on the bottom getting up and leaping over to straddle the victim. What they did see, was the person on top, rising up after the shot. Whether or not martin rolled on the ground would not be nearly as visible to someone looking from the side. While doing the whole "swap" thing would. This is actually really basic.

ETA, and I hope you're really open to this evidence, but look again:

Evidence Field | DiwataMan

The shell casing is SOUTH of the flashlight.

 

[Grim17]

Zs self defense claim is based on his account.

His truthfullness is germaine.

I'm sure he's at least fibbing about how it went down.

Covering something up.

Something between getting out of his truck and the shooting.

And that lie required other lies, as usually happens.

We'll see when the pross get down to reenacting the event for the jury.

If you really believe that a man who was attacked, had his nose broken, and was pinned down and beaten, is a reliable source for judging the total time of the altercation from start to finish, or you believe he should have been a reliable time source for that altercation, then you've either been nipping at the cooking sherry, or your hopelessly blinded by your bias.


Now can we get back on topic please?

 

[buck]

No one saw him flip in a way that would be clear, like the person on top falling over, the person on the bottom getting up and leaping over to straddle the victim. What they did see, was the person on top, rising up after the shot. Whether or not martin rolled on the ground would not be nearly as visible to someone looking from the side. While doing the whole "swap" thing would. This is actually really basic.

Great. Now we both agree that Trayvon was moved by George after the shot in some way... We also know that the first responder rolled him over too... So, why again were you relying on a moved body to determine where the shell casing was in relation to the body? Again, the best thing to compare it to, would be the cell phone and the non-working flashlight and the shell casing was to the north of both, supporting Zimmerman's claim.

 

[Excon]

We know Zimmerman flipped him because he said so and because the wound is in the chest. The location of the body, in both the photo taken by Manalo and the final evidence chart, places the shell casing to the right, or south, of the body. In neither of those positions is the shell to the north of the body, where it should be if Zimmerman was on the bottom. If Zimmerman was on top, crouching down, and shot him in the chest, Martin could have rolled onto his stomach in pain, or Zimmerman could have rolled him over for any number of reasons (to frisk him, to hide his face, out of fear, etc). The fact remains that the shell casing is south of the body, which as you said above, means the shell ejected to the right. The head is facing the sidewalk. This puts Zimmerman on top. Now, of course the defense will say that someone kicked the shell casing or that Martin moved after he died. But that's why Manalo's photo is so key. It has the flashlight position clearly marked, which means we can place Martin's body EXACTLY after death. There's no reason why the shell casing should be south of the body, right? So what you're left with is special pleading where you posit a series of moves, none of which are in evidence, to explain this away. Much like how Grim is adding seconds to the timeline for George and subtracting seconds from Jenna Lauer's timeline in order to wave away this missing two minutes. What we got, to get back on track, this week, was that there's two missing minutes for Zimmerman and that the forensics, thanks to Jon Manalo, will show Zimmerman on top at the time of the shooting, just like several witnesses say they saw.

"The shell casing is to the right, the person on top is the person who got up".

That's going to be powerful in a closing statement.

Absurdity at it's finest.
First of all. There was no flipping.
He said he got out from underneath him, possibly by pushing him off.
And it is likely he got out to ™'s left, possibly by pushing ™ off to the right based on how ™ lay. With his hip up.




But not only that, you are not taking into account the path of the casing.
You have no idea if it ejected up, down, left or right, or if it bounced off anything.
You have no damn clue and are just assuming, as usual.

Had you bothered to look at the gun, you would see it ejects upward.
Who was in the way of the upward ejection? ™ was in it's way.

 

[Grim17]

None of the ear/eye witness were particularly valuable to either side.. with Rachel being the most awkward and authentic.

I disagree... I thought Jenna and John were very helpful for the defense.

 

[spanky]

Why is that all that matters?

There has never been any determination of exactly how long it took from the time the 2 of them confronted each other, until the shot was fired, so that's not relevant. The only one who gave any kind of estimate was Jane, and beside her being vague and saying "A couple of minutes... no more than 5", we know that it couldn't have been that long anyway. That's why I used Jenna's 911 call for reference.

Now can we please get back on topic here?

Incorrect. Z's own video walk thorugh gives us a fairly good timeline of how and when events happened.

The problem is they don't line up with any of the witnesses.

 

[spanky]

I disagree... I thought Jenna and John were very helpful for the defense.

Because you're blinded by Zimmerlove. The pross has been setting a trap for Zimm and when they spring it, many will be surprised, shocked or saddened.

 

[Grim17]

On Z's video walk through it takes him 21 seconds to get from RVC to the point at the T where he says TM confronted him....on a sunny day. It was raining that night, if anything Z would have picked up his pace, maybe jogged.

"That leaves 1:20 and I didn't even account for the time from first blow, until Jenna decided she needed to call 911."

What "first blow", the one Z alleges? Heheh...

I timed it at 24 seconds, but he was at least 10 feet short of the end of the sidewalk in that walk through, and 20 feet from the street. Use your head for a minute... You know damned well he was probably looking south down both the sidewalk and the street toward the back entrance while he was talking to police, in the hopes he would spot Martin. When you take that into consideration, and the fact he was probably walking quicker than normal during the walk through to get to the next point of interest, I gave him 40 seconds of travel time... Sue me.

 

[Excon]

Incorrect. Z's own video walk thorugh gives us a fairly good timeline of how and when events happened.

The problem is they don't line up with any of the witnesses.

That is your emotional blindness for ™ speaking, as everything he said is possible within the time line.
And as for trap? iLOL :doh There is no trap.

 

[Grim17]

Yes we do. It was no sooner that 7:16:00.


Now we're seeing the prosecution's strategy here. They put on ALL of the eye witnesses so now we have a pretty good idea of what happened, where it happened, and when it happened. We know when Zimmerman hung up. We know when Martin disconnected.

And what we're left with is Mr. Zimmerman's story, and the next phase will be comparing that story to what we all see is what really happened. This is why, by the way, I think Rachel's testimony was far more effective that people seem to think. Notice that we're all pretty much in agreement now on the fact that she was truly on the phone with Martin and heard the start of the fight. That's locking in the timeline and locations. Notice also that she says Martin was standing by the mail kiosk for a while, and didn't simply walk by it. Notice the prosecution put in surveillance video from the clubhouse. This is going to mess up Zimmerman's timeline.

But in his story, at 7:13:41, he walked immediately back to his truck. But as even you point out, that's impossible, since the times don't match up. So he did something else until 7:16:00 which is when the fight actually started. Otherwise, there's no way a person walking back to his truck couldn't cross 30 feet in two minutes, unless they weren't walking back to their truck. And if he didn't walk back to his truck and instead kept looking for Martin, this means he's lied to everyone for a year.

Bottom line: The state has to prove Zimmerman was not acting in self defense that night, and unless they have some blockbuster stuff that we haven't seen yet, I'm afraid that ship may have already sailed.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on now please?

 

[Excon]

sharon. Stop marking me with your "likes".

 

[Excon]

But in his story, at 7:13:41, he walked immediately back to his truck.

In his account he looked about for a visible address first.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

Great. Now we both agree that Trayvon was moved by George after the shot in some way...

No, I said he rolled over. He could have rolled over in pain right after being shot and when Zimmerman stood up.

We also know that the first responder rolled him over too... So, why again were you relying on a moved body to determine where the shell casing was in relation to the body?

Because thanks to Mr. Manalo, we have photographic and eyewitness testimony as to exactly where the body was in relation to the flashlight. And from there, to the shell casing. Again, why do you think the prosecution asked every witness if they saw Martin moving? It appeared to be to show he was not capable of talking, but I submit that was only half of the reason. If you know of two points on a triangle (the flashlight, and the shell) you can tell the exact location of the third point (Martin's body before the cops lifted him). This is something that we can't just gloss over. It shows the shell casing south of the body, which is consistent with the shooter being on top. And witnesses say the same thing. When two pieces of evidence are in agreement like this, it's very convincing.

Again, the best thing to compare it to, would be the cell phone and the non-working flashlight and the shell casing was to the north of both, supporting Zimmerman's claim.

Again, the shell casing was south of the flashlight, not north.

 

[AlfredENeuman]

Bottom line: The state has to prove Zimmerman was not acting in self defense that night, and unless they have some blockbuster stuff that we haven't seen yet, I'm afraid that ship may have already sailed.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on now please?

You asked about this week's testimony, and what it meant and who it helped. I'm discussing it with you, since this week's testimony helped nail down the timeline of who was where and when. The next logical step is to demonstrate who this helped, and that's what I'm doing.

That the timeline is showing that Mr. Zimmerman lied to the police is going to be crucial in convincing a jury that he was also lying about his fear and the level of injury he sustained. I think it's clear he's a very dishonest person -- not just from all of this but from the bond hearing -- and I think demonstrating this is why the state is putting on these witnesses in the order they appear. You shouldn't just agree to disagree. You really owe it to yourself to try and see where the Pross is going with all of this.

 

[Excon]

It shows the shell casing south of the body, which is consistent with the shooter being on top. And witnesses say the same thing. When two pieces of evidence are in agreement like this, it's very convincing.

It is only convincing to those who do not know the evidence, and those who want to assume.

The location of the casing is consistent, as already shown, with a person being on the bottom.