Zimmerman 2nd degree murder

[Excon]

You guys are so confused, it is so sad. The investigation ended on the 26th of Feb, that is when Serino submitted the capias to the State Attorney:
Project Me This!: Trayvon Martin - ThinkProgress.org

It is sad because you are confused as to what happened.
Serino didn't file anything that night.
The investigation started that evening and continued.
:doh
You know, they did the reenactment the following morning as part of their investigation. :doh

And then they had to interview the other witnesses. etc.

But somehow you have the investigation ending the very night it started.
lol
:lamo
:lamo

Btw, learn the difference between what has reported and what supposedly happened.
And realize that the accounts are not confirmed.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

For the fourth time I am asking you to provide anything in the press to back these claims, you have shown nothing, nothing is all you have. Please shown when the investigation ended, show when this supposed "second event" that you claim Corey cited happened. Any documentation...produce.

According to you and you alone, ABC who talked to Serino, is lying, Corey is lying, there is no affidavit.....and there were "2 situations", whatever that means.

1. What was the purported “conflict” that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve “the integrity of this investigation,” adding he wanted to avoid “the appearance of a conflict of interest.” He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor’s office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]
2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating “he was unconvinced Zimmerman’s version of events.” As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman’s credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? [ABC News]
3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no “probable cause” to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently “temporarily” stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a “capias” request.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

You guys are so confused, it is so sad. The investigation ended on the 26th of Feb, that is when Serino submitted the capias to the State Attorney:
Project Me This!: Trayvon Martin - ThinkProgress.org

Funny then that the SPD thinks that their investigation wasn't completed until the 12th of March. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/TwinLakesTownhomesShootingUpDate2.pdf

The source for your article does not call what Serino filed a capias. It also cites Angela Corey as the source for the assertion about the capias. She refers to teh same March 12th date when the PD turned their stuff over to the SA.

You need to show that what Serino filed as actually a capias and not some other thing.
You are the only source I have seen which calls Serino's affidavit a capias.
Ge that out of the way and we can move on to the rest of your assertions

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Funny then that the SPD thinks that their investigation wasn't completed until the 12th of March. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/TwinLakesTownhomesShootingUpDate2.pdf

The source for your article does not call what Serino filed a capias. It also cites Angela Corey as the source for the assertion about the capias. She refers to teh same March 12th date when the PD turned their stuff over to the SA.

You need to show that what Serino filed as actually a capias and not some other thing.
You are the only source I have seen which calls Serino's affidavit a capias.
Ge that out of the way and we can move on to the rest of your assertions

Serino, the first lead investigator, on the first night, filed a capias with Wolfinger's office (that included his affidavit) for an arrest warrant with homicide/negligent manslaughter charges.

“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.’’
Sanford cops wanted to charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

Wolfinger's office rejected doing so, stating that there was not enough evidence. Police Chief Lee shot it down to, claiming Zim's statement:

“Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony,” Lee wrote in a memo posted on the city’s website. “By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based of the facts and circumstances they had at the time.” Sanford cops wanted to charge Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

Wolfinger's went back to SPD for review/re-investigation. That was finished on the 12th of March, I have no idea what was in that capias that was submitted to a grand jury. That is when Wolfinger was replaced with Corey and the investigation was reset for a second time.

If you want to deny that Serino filed a capias, that it did not include his affidavit recommending charges, that it was not submitted to Wolfiner's office....fine.....just bring forward your timeline...if you have one.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

If you want to deny that Serino filed a capias, that it did not include his affidavit recommending charges, that it was not submitted to Wolfiner's office....fine.....just bring forward your timeline...if you have one.

I am not denying that Serino filed a capias. I am asking for evidence that he did so. There's a difference.


You haven't provided anything that shows Serino filed a capias afaict.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I am not denying that Serino filed a capias. I am asking for evidence that he did so. There's a difference.


You haven't provided anything that shows Serino filed a capias afaict.

Right, nothing other than his own statement, Wolfinger and Lee not acting on it, and sources from inside the County State Attorney Office.

What do you have showing he did not?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Right, nothing other than his own statement...

I did not notice that statement. Could you please quote it. I somehow missed it.

What do you have showing he did not?

I don't have any evidence that he didn't do a thing.
There's just a hole when we come to the place where evidence that Serino filed a capias instead of some other thing should be.

That's not evidence that Serino did not file a capias. It's just a lack of evidence that what he filed was a capias.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

I did not notice that statement. Could you please quote it. I somehow missed it.

I don't have any evidence that he didn't do a thing.
There's just a hole when we come to the place where evidence that Serino filed a capias instead of some other thing should be.

That's not evidence that Serino did not file a capias. It's just a lack of evidence that what he filed was a capias.

SANFORD, Fla. — Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told McClatchy Newspapers on Tuesday.

A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

[....]

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in midstream.”

A capias is a request for charges to be filed.

The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office declined to comment on whether its prosecutors ever recommended against filing charges.

“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.”

Read more: Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman


Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman

 

[Simon W. Moon]

SANFORD, Fla. — Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told McClatchy Newspapers on Tuesday.

A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

[....]

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in midstream.”

A capias is a request for charges to be filed.

The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office declined to comment on whether its prosecutors ever recommended against filing charges.

“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.”

Read more: Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman


Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman

I read all that.
Corey isn't clear about the time that it happened.
Just because Serino filed something saying that he thought charges should be filed doesn't mean that everything which says that charges should be filed is a capias.
And it may have been a capias. IDK. But there hasn't been anything I have seen which says that what Serino filed was a capias instead of another type of paperwork.

 

[sharon]

It is sad because you are confused as to what happened.
Serino didn't file anything that night.
The investigation started that evening and continued.
:doh
You know, they did the reenactment the following morning as part of their investigation. :doh

And then they had to interview the other witnesses. etc.

But somehow you have the investigation ending the very night it started.
lol
:lamo
:lamo

Btw, learn the difference between what has reported and what supposedly happened.
And realize that the accounts are not confirmed.

Why do you suppose Bill Lee quit and the governor got involved?

 

[justabubba]

Why do you suppose Bill Lee quit and the governor got involved?

according to bill lee, this is why:

... Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee said that he stands by his department's initial investigation but that he is stepping aside to avoid being a distraction. ...

Police chief steps aside over Trayvon Martin case

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I read all that.
Corey isn't clear about the time that it happened.
Just because Serino filed something saying that he thought charges should be filed doesn't mean that everything which says that charges should be filed is a capias.
And it may have been a capias. IDK. But there hasn't been anything I have seen which says that what Serino filed was a capias instead of another type of paperwork.

But again, the whole claim by bubba that started this part of the debate was whether Serino filed an affidavit for misdemeanor charges. Whether that was included in a capias or "another type of paperwork", the point is that Serino DID file it with Wolfinger. It did exist. That was the charge that Wolfinger did not act on, that Lee said was not supported by evidence.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

But again, the whole claim by bubba that started this part of the debate was whether Serino filed an affidavit for misdemeanor charges. Whether that was included in a capias or "another type of paperwork", the point is that Serino DID file it with Wolfinger. It did exist. That was the charge that Wolfinger did not act on, that Lee said was not supported by evidence.

It certainly seems that Serino did file some sort of an affidavit.
Where he filed it or other whatnots, idk.
Wolfinger's OFFICE handled the situation, but apparently not Wolfinger himself.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

It certainly seems that Serino did file some sort of an affidavit.

How many pages did it take for you to finally accept it?

Where he filed it or other whatnots, idk.
Wolfinger's OFFICE handled the situation, but apparently not Wolfinger himself.

Pointless.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

How many pages did it take for you to finally accept it?

You're not having the same conversation as me afaict.
I have known about Serino's affidavit for quite some time.
I haven't contested it.
Perhaps you're just not reading what I write very closely.
idk
:shrug:

Here's a post from last month, the day that part of the story broke:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tin-attacked-zimmerman-36.html#post1060337893


Perhaps if you re-read what I have been writing in this thread you'll hear what I have been saying. Just a thought.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

You're not having the same conversation as me afaict.
I have known about Serino's affidavit for quite some time.
I haven't contested it.
Perhaps you're just not reading what I write very closely.
idk
:shrug:

Here's a post from last month, the day that part of the story broke:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tin-attacked-zimmerman-36.html#post1060337893


Perhaps if you re-read what I have been writing in this thread you'll hear what I have been saying. Just a thought.

All you have been doing is playing little petty semantic games, raising a finger when the word "office" is left out in relation to Wolfinger (as if that matters, this was the biggest case before he left and yes most definitely involved in it) and getting in the middle of a debate between bubba and I. Perhaps it has been you who has totally mispent your time doing nothing but being an annoying gnat buzzing around without having a point. If your only purpose has been to to cleave the difference between what Serino filled with Wolfinger (was it him or his office, was it a capias or an affidavit.....!?!), then your time is wasted.

What is your point?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

What is your point?

It is contained in the posts I made.
If you can't be bothered to read what I actually wrote rather than what you think I wrote, I am not sure how me writing more would help.

The "hair splitting" that you referred to in re Wolfinger vs his office, is what resolved the issue of whether or not Wolfinger had said that there was no Serino affidavit. I am not sure how you could have read what I wrote and missed that point.
That is what Wolfuinger's objection to the description of events in Crumps letter was about.
Did you read Wolfinger press release which I provided?
Did you read Crump's letter which I also provided?

To me, it's nearly incredible that you had been actually reading what I have written and thought that I have been arguing that the Serino affidavit does not exist. Nearly incredible, but sadly not totally so.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

It is contained in the posts I made.
If you can't be bothered to read what I actually wrote rather than what you think I wrote, I am not sure how me writing more would help.

The "hair splitting" that you referred to in re Wolfinger vs his office, is what resolved the issue of whether or not Wolfinger had said that there was no Serino affidavit. I am not sure how you could have read what I wrote and missed that point.
That is what Wolfuinger's objection to the description of events in Crumps letter was about.
Did you read Wolfinger press release which I provided?
Did you read Crump's letter which I also provided?

To me, it's nearly incredible that you had been actually reading what I have written and thought that I have been arguing that the Serino affidavit does not exist. Nearly incredible, but sadly not totally so.

It was established long ago that Wolfinger was not disputing the affidavit, that was not his argument, his argument was over whether he met with Lee on that night, the 26th.

I was not involved in that dispute AT ALL.

Perhaps again, as I said, you don't have a point to argue against or with me....and that YOU have not been reading what I have been arguing...bzzz, bzzz.

PS...the link to the post of yours that I was supposed to read was not in this thread, nor was it in response to something I wrote nor did I respond to it....in other words I NEVER SAW IT.

I suppose you think I should read all of your posts everywhere on this forum?

bzzz..bzzz!

 

[Simon W. Moon]

It was established long ago that Wolfinger was not disputing the affidavit, that was not his argument, his argument was over whether he met with Lee on that night, the 26th.

I am quite aware of that. Though it was mentioned in this thread that Wolfinger had disputed the Serino affidavit. I guess you missed that part? idk.
But, in any case, that what I was responding to.

Perhaps again, as I said, you don't have a point to argue against or with me....and that YOU have not been reading what I have been arguing...bzzz, bzzz.

Iirc, all that I asked you for was some evidence that Serino's affidavit was a capias thingy as you suggested and not something else. Iirc, there's not been anything presented that actually makes the case that Serino's affidavit was a capias.
w/e

PS...the link to the post of yours that I was supposed to read was not in this thread, nor was it in response to something I wrote nor did I respond to it....in other words I NEVER SAW IT.

I realize that. I had to search for it. I mentioned that the post was from last month. I didn't think that you had read it.
That's also why I italicized the word "this" in the next sentence where I wrote about "this thread."

I suppose you think I should read all of your posts everywhere on this forum?

I think it would be nice if everyone always read everything that I ever write.
Not really sure what my desire for ego aggrandizement has to do with what we're talking about though.

bzzz..bzzz!

A comparatively compelling argument actually.

You are dismissed.

 

[dontworrybehappy]

In my opinion, this whole thing reminds me of the Casey Anthony trial. So many people wanted her head on a pole and people like me kept saying "There is only evidence the child is dead, not that Casey killed her." People ridiculed me for that, saying I was a "child killer supporter" or ignoring the evidence. (not here, on another site) I kept saying that I haven't seen any evidence that links her to the crime. I think she is only guilty of being a terrible mom, but not killing the kid.

And despite all odds, she walked a free woman. I was right. And I feel much stronger about this case than the Anthony case.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I am quite aware of that. Though it was mentioned in this thread that Wolfinger had disputed the Serino affidavit. I guess you missed that part? idk.
But, in any case, that what I was responding to.

But unfortunately, and as I keep telling you, I had no part in that conversation....and yet you still seem to expect me to follow ALL of yours....everywhere. Such vanity!

Iirc, all that I asked you for was some evidence that Serino's affidavit was a capias thingy as you suggested and not something else. Iirc, there's not been anything presented that actually makes the case that Serino's affidavit was a capias.

Again, the affidavit/capias game....it doesn't matter, the POINT was whether it EXISTED in bubba's world.

I realize that. I had to search for it. I mentioned that the post was from last month. I didn't think that you had read it.
That's also why I italicized the word "this" in the next sentence where I wrote about "this thread."

Again, why would I have read that, how could I know?????

I think it would be nice if everyone always read everything that I ever write.
Not really sure what my desire for ego aggrandizement has to do with what we're talking about though.

Um, because you seem to expect it from me..NEWS FLASH....I'm not that into you.

A comparatively compelling argument actually.

You are dismissed.

Bzzz bzzz, you are still searching for something to debate with me.

 

[Excon]

SANFORD, Fla. — Despite public claims that there wasn’t enough probable cause to make a criminal case in the Trayvon Martin killing, early in the investigation the Sanford Police Department requested an arrest warrant from the Seminole County State Attorney’s office, the special prosecutor in the case told McClatchy Newspapers on Tuesday.

A Sanford Police incident report shows the case was categorized as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.”

[....]

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in midstream.”

A capias is a request for charges to be filed.

The Seminole County State Attorney’s Office declined to comment on whether its prosecutors ever recommended against filing charges.

“If you go with what was reported in the press the first night, there would have been an arrest right away, but obviously something gave investigators pause,” said a source in the Seminole State Attorney’s office who did not want to speak publicly, because the case is now assigned to a different prosecutor. “We get capias warrants all the time. That doesn’t mean we file charges right away. We investigate to see if it’s appropriate. That’s the responsible thing to do.”

Read more: Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman


Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman

She is taking about what was filed after the initial investigation was done.
Not what was alleged to be filed the night of the shooting, which has never been confirmed, which is prior to the end of the investigation. :doh
And yes, it is disputed.

"I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter ..."​

The meeting would be one event.
Quashing a non existent affidavit was the other.

Nothing more than lies.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

She is taking about what was filed after the initial investigation was done.
Not what was alleged to be filed the night of the shooting, which has never been confirmed, which is prior to the end of the investigation. :doh
And yes, it is disputed.

"I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter ..."​

The meeting would be one event.
Quashing a non existent affidavit was the other.
Nothing more than lies.

Crump wrote to the federal Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the Civil Right Division and alleged that Wolfinger may have been involved in un-ethical conduct by calling the situation that Wolfinger was said to have been in "suspicious circumstances"


Wolfinger writes a very short statement and makes a very explicit statement as to what he wants documented as true.
.

I encourage the Justice Department to investigate and document that no such [1] meeting or [2] communication occurred.
​

.
Wolfinger didn't take issue with the several media stories that had come out the week before that said kinda sorta the same thing.

Apart from the events discussed in Crump's letter which were not about Wolfinger, there was another major difference between the earlier media accounts and the accounts asserted by the Parks Crump legal team.

The media accounts did not try to tie Wolfinger to some sort of "suspicious circumstances" by saying that

1) Wolfinger came to the PD "within hours of the shooting," and that
2) "State Attorney Norm Wolfinger and Chief Bill Lee overruled the recommendation of the lead homicide investigator"​

The media accounts rather just said that Wolfinger's office declined to approve of pressing charges.

Why shouldn't we take Wolfinger at his word that he is talking about what he says he is talking about?

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

And yes, it is disputed.

"I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter ..."​

The meeting would be one event.
Quashing a non existent affidavit was the other.

Nothing more than lies.

You are making **** up. "Quashing a non existent affidavit was the other," was never said by Wolfinger. What he actually said was:

I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter by Benjamin Crump to Deputy Assistant Attorney General Roy Austin dated April 2, 2012. I encourage the Justice Department to investigate and document that no such meeting or communication occurred.

What he disputed was the claim in that letter that he was involved with in a meeting with Lee (and possibly family members of Zimmerman) over communication with Serino about his recommendation to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter. He never denied that Serino filed an affidavit.

And looking at the letter again, it could be read that Crump wasn't asserting the affidavit was fiiled that night; just that there was a meeting between Wolfinger and Lee, where they decided to overrule Serino's recommendation to charge Zimmerman.

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martin-trayvon-ltr-to-roy-austin-usdoj.pdf

But let's cut to the chase. You are trying your hardest to dispute the claim that the police department wanted to charge Zimmerman. But Serino, the lead investigator, believed Zimmerman acted unlawfully, wanted him charged with manslaughter, and filed this in an affidavit...

Asked to confirm that the police recommended a manslaughter charge, special prosecutor Angela Corey said: “I don’t know about that, but as far as the process I can tell you that the police went to the state attorney with a capias request, meaning: ‘We’re through with our investigation and here it is for you.’ The state attorney impaneled a grand jury, but before anything else could be done, the governor stepped in and asked us to pick it up in midstream.”

A capias is a request for charges to be filed.

Trayvon Martin case: Police wanted arrest warrant for George Zimmerman

The man running the investigation didn't believe Zimmerman's account ... why do you?

And by the way, you can be certain that Serino will be testifying in court should this case make it to trial.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Why shouldn't we take Wolfinger at his word that he is talking about what he says he is talking about?

Because making **** up is so much more effective at eluding those pesky facts.