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Your Child's Teacher Next Year

I just want the freedom to choose Layla. If public teachers were even remotely similar to private markets in terms of how they operate, it may not even have been that much of a issue. I am nearly forced to fund a system that is dysfunctional and archaic, when it comes to the majority of the education our population gets. I realize teachers are worried about their big pensions and tenure, etc., I rank those lower in terms of the goals of our public education system.

You do have the freedom to choose where you send your child to school.

You don't have the freedom to choose which taxes you will pay, and which you will not.
 
You do have the freedom to choose where you send your child to school.

You don't have the freedom to choose which taxes you will pay, and which you will not.

Actually, you don't have the freedom to choose, Sangha, at least in most places. You have to go in the district you live in, no matter how bad the school. You can request a different school, but you usually have to pay double taxes (for the school you are in the district for and the school you are transferring to). This applies to public school. Also, if you put your child in private school, you still have to pay public school taxes. Never thought that was fair.
 
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Actually, you don't have the freedom to choose, Sangha, at least in most places. You have to go in the district you live in, no matter how bad the school. You can request a different school, but you usually have to pay double taxes (for the school you are in the district for and the school you are transferring to). This applies to public school. Also, if you put your child in private school, you still have to pay public school taxes. Never thought that was fair.

One does not have to send their child to a public school. If the public school system does not offer a satisfactory choice, then the parent can choose to send their child to a private school...any private school. IOW, the parent still has a choice; They just don't have the right to tell the public school that a particular school must accept their child

And as far as taxes goes, it's just a fact of life that we don't decide how our tax dollars are spent on an individual basis. It's something that is decided collectively, through the (somewhat) democratic process.

I've never gone to war, but my taxes still go to fund the military.
 
One does not have to send their child to a public school. If the public school system does not offer a satisfactory choice, then the parent can choose to send their child to a private school...any private school. IOW, the parent still has a choice; They just don't have the right to tell the public school that a particular school must accept their child

And as far as taxes goes, it's just a fact of life that we don't decide how our tax dollars are spent on an individual basis. It's something that is decided collectively, through the (somewhat) democratic process.

I've never gone to war, but my taxes still go to fund the military.

Except that most people can't afford the 10-20k a year in tuition costs to send their kid to a private school, especially when they don't get their tax money back they paid in for the public school.

In education especially, choices are only for the wealthy. If you're poor and your kids' school is incompetant, you're simply ****ed and so are your kids.
 
Except that most people can't afford the 10-20k a year in tuition costs to send their kid to a private school, especially when they don't get their tax money back they paid in for the public school.

In education especially, choices are only for the wealthy. If you're poor and your kids' school is incompetant, you're simply ****ed and so are your kids.

And most people can't afford private jets

Sucks to be them.
 
Except that most people can't afford the 10-20k a year in tuition costs to send their kid to a private school, especially when they don't get their tax money back they paid in for the public school. In education especially, choices are only for the wealthy. If you're poor and your kids' school is incompetant, you're simply ****ed and so are your kids.

And this is the real tragedy, or the more individually disruptive tragedy anyway. Public school parents/students are stuck with the overpriced, under-performing public institution output, a cycle failure. Union types know this, they know that their primary objectives are not education quality, but benefits/pay/work conditions. Just as the administration's primary objectives are staying in power. Parents are told they have to be the ones to educate their children (it's the parents fault according to many), but as you note, their choices are limited largely to public education...where no one has it as priority to improve education.

A system designed to benefit the politicians and teachers, funded by taxpayers who as we all no have no choice in the matter of funding it.
 
You do have the freedom to choose where you send your child to school.
You don't have the freedom to choose which taxes you will pay, and which you will not.

Who argued otherwise? That's the core issue, public schools are funded no matter what anyone chooses. It's the hallmark of a broken system, I certainly agree it's the case that I can't (reasonably) choose not to fund a broken system, a failing school, an overpriced teacher, an out-of-place-pension system, etc.
 
You're comparing private jets to the education of children? Really?

As if an education was such an extravagant luxury that should only be afforded to the rich?

The value of an education is not the issue here. I merely responded to the false claim about a lack of choice.

The fact remains that people do have choices.

And it's a bit hypocritical for people to complain about not being able to afford private school *and* having to pay for public schools their privately schooled children are not attending

PS - there are plenty of private schools that charge little to nothing for parents who are financially unable to pay the regular tuition
 
The value of an education is not the issue here. I merely responded to the false claim about a lack of choice.

The fact remains that people do have choices.

And it's a bit hypocritical for people to complain about not being able to afford private school *and* having to pay for public schools their privately schooled children are not attending

This is actually quite ironic, because from what I remember you usually passionately argue in favor of social programs and have compassion with the poor. Here, in education, the single most important thing a person can get, you're fundamentally opposed to them having any real opportunities.

A child does not rise from poverty because of welfare checks, they rise from poverty from a proper education. If you're poor and live in an area with a horrifically incompetant public school, you're ****ed, plain and simple. Without money, they have ZERO choice.

So your solution to a poor child being robbed of a proper education is "Sounds like your parents should get richer, kid".
 
Who argued otherwise? That's the core issue, public schools are funded no matter what anyone chooses. It's the hallmark of a broken system, I certainly agree it's the case that I can't (reasonably) choose not to fund a broken system, a failing school, an overpriced teacher, an out-of-place-pension system, etc.

You did. You said "I just want the freedom to choose Layla. "

You have the freedom to choose which school your child goes to.

If you were referring to "the freedom to choose which taxes you pay" or "the freedom to decide what your tax dollars are spent on" you do not have that "freedom"; No one does.
 
You did. You said "I just want the freedom to choose Layla. "
You have the freedom to choose which school your child goes to.
If you were referring to "the freedom to choose which taxes you pay" or "the freedom to decide what your tax dollars are spent on" you do not have that "freedom"; No one does.

Please stop reiterating it when you've been corrected. I have already informed you that I want the freedom to direct my education dollars where I want to. If you don't want me to clarify what I wrote, then you're left with the general and to you ambiguous claim.

Worse, you are following that up with being misleading if not outright false in your claiming that no one has the freedom to decide on what their tax dollars are spent. Aside from the fact that we have at least some small influence on government (or illegal choices), we also have in some areas voucher programs that afford people the ability to do what you claim no one can.

School voucher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A school voucher, also called an education voucher, is a certificate issued by the government, which parents can apply toward tuition at a private school (or, by extension, to reimburse home schooling expenses), rather than at the state school to which their child is assigned
The choice to have my tax money by all accounts spent on the education choice I prefer (private or home school in the above), would be sufficient choice. That is, the tax dollars I had to pay, would then in effect be reimbursed to me for education of my choosing. A roundabout choice, but achieves the primary purpose.
 
Please stop reiterating it when you've been corrected. I have already informed you that I want the freedom to direct my education dollars where I want to.

Request denied

Permission to whine....Granted!
 
This is actually quite ironic, because from what I remember you usually passionately argue in favor of social programs and have compassion with the poor. Here, in education, the single most important thing a person can get, you're fundamentally opposed to them having any real opportunities.

A child does not rise from poverty because of welfare checks, they rise from poverty from a proper education. If you're poor and live in an area with a horrifically incompetant public school, you're ****ed, plain and simple. Without money, they have ZERO choice.

So your solution to a poor child being robbed of a proper education is "Sounds like your parents should get richer, kid".

Exactly. Most lousy public schools are in low income areas, anyway. Rarely do you find a lousy school in an affluent neighborhood.
 
One does not have to send their child to a public school. If the public school system does not offer a satisfactory choice, then the parent can choose to send their child to a private school...any private school. IOW, the parent still has a choice; They just don't have the right to tell the public school that a particular school must accept their child

And as far as taxes goes, it's just a fact of life that we don't decide how our tax dollars are spent on an individual basis. It's something that is decided collectively, through the (somewhat) democratic process.

I've never gone to war, but my taxes still go to fund the military.

Now, Sangha. You know you my boy. You've been one of my favorites since day one. I'm gonna call bull**** on this, though. Most parents can't choose to send their children to private school because the cost is prohibitive to do so. And sure, if you meet income qualifications, you can go for free, but most people who really care about this won't meet the income qualifications. I know that I wouldn't. Most private schools in our area are around $1,000 a month. That's a mortgage payment and a car payment. In this economy, people are struggling to make their house payments, to eat, to pay the electric bill. Asking them to pay $1,000 a month for tuition is something that most can't do, and that doesn't mean they have a choice. If the private schools were tuition-free, and the parents still left their kids in public schools, then I'd agree. Right now the cost of the tuition is taking the choice out of most parents' hands.
 
Now, Sangha. You know you my boy. You've been one of my favorites since day one. I'm gonna call bull**** on this, though. Most parents can't choose to send their children to private school because the cost is prohibitive to do so. And sure, if you meet income qualifications, you can go for free, but most people who really care about this won't meet the income qualifications. I know that I wouldn't. Most private schools in our area are around $1,000 a month. That's a mortgage payment and a car payment. In this economy, people are struggling to make their house payments, to eat, to pay the electric bill. Asking them to pay $1,000 a month for tuition is something that most can't do, and that doesn't mean they have a choice. If the private schools were tuition-free, and the parents still left their kids in public schools, then I'd agree. Right now the cost of the tuition is taking the choice out of most parents' hands.

Don't worry, no offense taken. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

And yes, it is true that most people can afford to send their child to private school, but that doesn't mean that they do not have the "right to choose" to send their child to private school. They retain that right; they just do not have the means to exercise that right.

And, to be honest, for the most part, I really don't care about most of those who can't afford to send their child to private school, mainly because I don't buy the nonsense about how crappy our public schools are. In my opinion, the overwhelming majority of public schools are pretty good and they're getting better. The problem is with a small minority of schools which are beset with a variety of ills, the most important of which is the poverty of their students. These are not the schools the children of the people posting here are sending their children too. If they were, I would suggest they make better choices (like cancelling their internet connection and saving the money to pay tuition) before complaining about how they lack choices.

For those parents who truly lack a choice (due to their poverty) and are "forced" to send their child to a school that is truly crappy, the idea that allowing people to opt out of paying taxes to fund public schools is a viable remedy to this problem of crappy schools seem counter-intuitive. It's only purpose is to further weaken the govt, and it's motivation is primarily fed by hostility to government, and aid for the poor. It has little or nothing to do with bettering our public school system, and the arguments used to support such an idea are rarely supported by facts.

Which is not to say that there aren't problems with the public system, or that crappy schools don't exist. However, the problem has nothing to do with being able to choose to not pay taxes, or being able to choose which school your child goes to. Instead, the problem is caused by several factors, including and not limited to "de facto" segregation (as opposed to "de jure") in housing, the poverty of children (1 in 5, according to some estimates I've read), a host of cultural problems associated with poverty, and (most relevant to this tangent we're discussing) an unwillingness of many to properly fund anything helps the poor.

So when that choice is "taken out of the hands" of parents, it's usually parents who are somewhere in the middle class, and their child ends up going to a school that is pretty good (relative to other schools, both in this country and in others). Schools where their children are more than able to get a fine education so long as the child puts the effort into it. Sure, it's not the *best* school (and I certainly don't begrudge parents for wanting their children to go to the best school) but no one has the right to "the best"

We all pay our taxes. In exchange, we deserve to have our children receive an adequate education. If we're going to expect that every child is entitled to the best, then we're going to have to pay for it.
 
Exactly. Most lousy public schools are in low income areas, anyway. Rarely do you find a lousy school in an affluent neighborhood.

True. Which is why I call BS on those wanting the "freedom" to not have their tax dollars be spent on public education. If the schools were to have their tax revenues reduced, guess which schools would bear the brunt of those cuts?

IMO, I doubt it would be the ones in affluent neighborhoods, nor would it be the ones with reputations for excellence.
 
Incorrect, I cannot choose not to pay the property taxes that primarily fund the schools that I do NOT choose. I'm sure you're OK with taking the taxes and not providing the service I want, oddly that's not really choice is it. I also only have one child, that too was a choice, and one child is relatively easy to afford private school for, 2, 3, 4, it would be a different story.

Well I bleed for you. You poor, poor thing. :coffeepap

In any case, you can choose which school to send your child to. That was the point. As for what you want, there are a lot of wants out their. But you benefit from an educated populace, so try not to complain too much that it costs you a little. Others who apparently make less are not doing that much whining.
 
Except that most people can't afford the 10-20k a year in tuition costs to send their kid to a private school, especially when they don't get their tax money back they paid in for the public school.

In education especially, choices are only for the wealthy. If you're poor and your kids' school is incompetant, you're simply ****ed and so are your kids.

So if you got your tax money back you still couldn't afford private school.

Your child is subsidized by all taxpayers. Even those with no children.

You won't get 15,000 back for private school a year in taxes.

You obviously see the benefits of public education.
 
So if you got your tax money back you still couldn't afford private school.

Your child is subsidized by all taxpayers. Even those with no children.

You won't get 15,000 back for private school a year in taxes.

You obviously see the benefits of public education.

Huh? Are you mistaking me for someone who wants to get rid of public education? If you had read absolutely anything I've wrote, you would've noticed I want the public education system to stay in place, but give those who choose to go somewhere else their money back.

I also never said it would cover full tuition, but it would certainly help out middle class families who couldn't otherwise afford it.

So if you'd like to address anything I actually did write, feel free.
 
Huh? Are you mistaking me for someone who wants to get rid of public education? If you had read absolutely anything I've wrote, you would've noticed I want the public education system to stay in place, but give those who choose to go somewhere else their money back.

I also never said it would cover full tuition, but it would certainly help out middle class families who couldn't otherwise afford it.

So if you'd like to address anything I actually did write, feel free.

Why should you get your money back?

Your education is directly tied to your effort.

What is malfunctioning at your school.?
 
So you're telling me that the kids in the worst school districts in America are simply failing because they're not trying?

Typical union-esque responses I get on this forum over the years:

1. It's their parents fault.
2. Its not teacher's jobs to make them an education success, only to make education available.
3. Teachers should not be required to inspire and lead as part of their job description, that's nice to have but not essential to the job.
4. Give us more money and we'll increase their performance (despite claiming we aren't responsible for their performance in 1-3 above)

The worst tragedy is when some ambitious mother ****ers go into those terrible districts and create a school where the kids thrive and do superbly, then they parade out the "well they cherry picked, well they got outside funding, well you can't scale that, well it was one charismatic leader". There is no evidence that it could be better, sufficient for those who control the majority of the public education system (be it government or the unions that hold it in check). Argh.
 
Typical union-esque responses I get on this forum over the years:

1. It's their parents fault.
2. Its not teacher's jobs to make them an education success, only to make education available.
3. Teachers should not be required to inspire and lead as part of their job description, that's nice to have but not essential to the job.
4. Give us more money and we'll increase their performance (despite claiming we aren't responsible for their performance in 1-3 above)

The worst tragedy is when some ambitious mother ****ers go into those terrible districts and create a school where the kids thrive and do superbly, then they parade out the "well they cherry picked, well they got outside funding, well you can't scale that, well it was one charismatic leader". There is no evidence that it could be better, sufficient for those who control the majority of the public education system (be it government or the unions that hold it in check). Argh.

You're right. Parents have no responsibility to ther child's education. Certainly a student has none. Knowledge Jim's from one ad to another requiring nothing of a student. A child as I heard on Rush's show are like shoes, with no mind, no resistance, nothing happens to them outside the classroom, but ompletely maluable before the teacher.

Look, I doubt you actually, listen to the real arguments and merely feed your head with the mindless garbage f talking heads. But I don't belong to a union, never have, but I knw much of what you write above is pure BS.
 
I just want the freedom to choose Layla. If public teachers were even remotely similar to private markets in terms of how they operate, it may not even have been that much of a issue. I am nearly forced to fund a system that is dysfunctional and archaic, when it comes to the majority of the education our population gets. I realize teachers are worried about their big pensions and tenure, etc., I rank those lower in terms of the goals of our public education system.

First, I don't know who gets these "big pensions" but it won't be me or anyone I know. Teachers get a decent pension, as do many professions.

We all fund education because education is a place where we fail or succeed as a group. We fund students one way or the other. We either pay for a well educated society or we pay for welfare and prisons. I am not saying that all people on welfare are uneducated but being uneducated certainly makes it harder to earn a living. This is why people without kids or with grown children still pay for education. It doesn't matter if you pay for your kids to have the absolute best/most expensive education. You will constantly be surrounded by and served by people with a public school education. It benefits all of us for that education to be excellent. Competition (vouchers)will not make that happen.
 
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