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Xenophobia: Casting Out the Un-French

paris

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/opinion/06fri2.html?ref=nicolas_sarkozy

Xenophobia: Casting Out the Un-French
Published: August 5, 2010

"France has no equivalent to the 14th Amendment, but the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who likes to be known as Sarko the American, also is fanning dangerous anti-immigrant passions for short-term political gain.

Last week, he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes. Lest any voter miss the point that such a law would be particularly aimed at Muslim immigrants, Mr. Sarkozy’s interior minister, in charge of the police force, helpfully added polygamy and female circumcision to the list of offenses that could bring loss of citizenship.






"

Advice to tourists: Don't come visiting France next Fall.
There ought to be lots of protests and even more strikes than usual:shock::)
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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What's so wrong in getting tough with immigrant criminals? If all they want to do is abuse the hospitality of France then they can pack their bags.

And what's the betting that the tougher measures will be dropped safely after election anyway?
 
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mikhail

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/opinion/06fri2.html?ref=nicolas_sarkozy

Xenophobia: Casting Out the Un-French
Published: August 5, 2010

"France has no equivalent to the 14th Amendment, but the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who likes to be known as Sarko the American, also is fanning dangerous anti-immigrant passions for short-term political gain.

Last week, he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes. Lest any voter miss the point that such a law would be particularly aimed at Muslim immigrants, Mr. Sarkozy’s interior minister, in charge of the police force, helpfully added polygamy and female circumcision to the list of offenses that could bring loss of citizenship.

Days earlier, Mr. Sarkozy promised to destroy the camps of the Roma and send them back to where they came from, mainly Romania and Bulgaria. Both countries are members of the European Union. Hundreds of thousands of their residents, in France legally, now risk being swept up and expelled in police raids.

And Mr. Sarkozy proposes denying automatic French citizenship to people born in France if their parents are foreign and they have a record of juvenile delinquency.

All of this in a country that has long proudly upheld the principle that all French citizens — native-born or naturalized — are entitled to equal treatment under the law. That applies to Mr. Sarkozy’s Hungarian-born father and Italian-born wife, both naturalized French citizens, and should apply to everyone else.

But immigrant-bashing is popular among nonimmigrant French voters and Mr. Sarkozy has never been shy about doing it. He built his 2007 presidential campaign around his tough record (and inflammatory words) as interior minister. Earlier this year, he ran a divisive campaign to define French national identity because he wanted to fend off the far right anti-immigrant National Front in regional elections. It didn’t work.

Now, with his political fortunes at a new low and the National Front resurgent under younger leadership, he has gone further, worrying traditional conservatives who still believe in the rights of man and the equality of all French citizens. They are right to be concerned, and he is recklessly wrong to ignore their cautionary advice.
"

Advice to tourists: Don't come visiting France next Fall.
There ought to be lots of protests and even more strikes than usual:shock::)
"he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes. Lest any voter miss the point that such a law would be particularly aimed at Muslim immigrants" So are you saying Muslims are likely to commit those sort of crimes?I imagine more and more French people are tired of their capital becoming more and more of a **** hole.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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I'm not surprised Muslims face a bit of flak. Never mind the burka, many of them make themselves even more conspicuous for burning out Paris year on year, then having the French taxpayer fork out protection money ('development grants') to keep them sweet. And such is consistent with other cities in Europe, for example Athens.

And to think some people on here question how I could ever doubt them!



But anyway, back to foreign criminal slime in general....
 
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paris

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What's so wrong in getting tough with immigrant criminals? If all they want to do is abuse the hospitality of France then they can pack their bags.

And what's the betting that the tougher measures will be dropped safely after election anyway?

Making laws which apply only to a part of the citizenry is un-constitutional according to French laws:

Art. 1: Men are born free and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions can be based only on public utility.

Art. 6: Law is the expression of the general will. All citizens have the right to take part personally, or by their representatives, and its formation. It must be the same for all, whether it protects or punishes. All citizens, being equal in its eyes, art equally eligible to all public dignities, places, and employments, according to their capacities, and without other distinction than that of their virtues and talents.


"Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen" (August 1789)

Furthermore, it also violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 1.
•All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 15.
•(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.


The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Playing with nationality is characteristic of undemocratic regimes.
 
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paris

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"he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes. Lest any voter miss the point that such a law would be particularly aimed at Muslim immigrants" So are you saying Muslims are likely to commit those sort of crimes?I imagine more and more French people are tired of their capital becoming more and more of a **** hole.
I'm not saying that as it is an editorial from the NYT. As to your 2nd sentence all I have to say is ROFL!
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Hmm, the 1789 French bill of rights. I wonder if all that 'born free' and 'equal rights' stuff applied to the people in the territories occupied by the leftist dictator Napoleon, Revolutionary France's boss?! So violations of human rights according to France's own rulebook were broken early by its own Aristo-murdering ruler!! So why worry now?


And more seriously, I wonder if previous attempts to simply deport foreign criminals were thwarted in the courts by interfering liberals, as we find with ours here often enough.

Perhaps you have some insights into how Sarkozy got this far.
 
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paris

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Hmm, the 1789 French bill of rights. I wonder if all that 'born free' and 'equal rights' stuff applied to the people in the territories occupied by the leftist dictator Napoleon, Revolutionary France's boss?! So violations of human rights according to France's own rulebook were broken early by its own Aristo-murdering ruler!! So why worry now?


And more seriously, I wonder if previous attempts to simply deport foreign criminals were thwarted in the courts by interfering liberals, as we find with ours here often enough.

Perhaps you have some insights into how Sarkozy got this far.
You wonder not, it seems you don't understand the concept of citizenry. Do you think The US Bill of Rights ought to apply to the people in Iraq or Afghanistan?

As to your claim that Napoleon was a leftist dictator, he who claimed to be an Emperor, you are funny as hell:mrgreen:
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Ooo, thanks from Andalablue and Alexa to somebody once more denying Leftist dictatorships again. What a ruddy surprise!


Napoleon was a leftist imperial emperor roughly in line with the likes of Stalin, a fellow peasant-championing revolutionary Red who dominated other people whilst banging on about human rights and humanity. And your US Bill of Rights comparison is absurd because recent American battles over there aren't a like-for-like comparison.


Napoleon enslaved country after country and we stopped him. But the French still revere him. So it's perfectly in keeping for the French to be far less heavy handed with the modern criminals inside its borders.
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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Ah, Spud Meister too! Welcome to the Totalitarian Leftiness Rehabilitation Group!

Rule: Be as mad as you like, just don't let other people see the fists fly, else we might disown you for a while to keep ourselves still looking pure!
 
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spud_meister

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Ah, Spud Meister too! Welcome to the Totalitarian Leftiness Rehabilitation Group!

Rule: Be as mad as you like, just don't let other people see the fists fly, else we might disown you for a while to keep ourselves still looking pure!
i see you're right, rather than being a classical european tyrant, he introduced the Napoleonic code, that was a piece of trash wasn't, i mean, you can see where Marx got his ideas from, the very though of "forbidding privileges based on birth, allowing freedom of religion, and specifying that government jobs go to the most qualified". is complete egalitarian trash, as well as introducing that most despicable commie piece of ideology, the metric system, and emancipating the jews, that is just disgusting, socialist doctrine, how very horrible of him.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Kinda contradicts the whole thing by trying to impart those ideas by force, both at home and abroad.

Madame Guillotine and the musket - the sharp end of Napoleonic politics, with very similar for Marxism! (My mother's Poland didn't do too well at the hands of either I can tell you, with forces being absorbed into the ranks of the overbearing powers!)
 
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spud_meister

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Kinda contradicts the whole thing by trying to impart those ideas by force, both at home and abroad.

Madame Guillotine and the musket - the sharp end of Napoleonic politics, with very similar for Marxism! (My mother's Poland didn't do too well at the hands of either I can tell you, with forces being absorbed into the ranks of the overbearing powers!)
oh, i see now, anytime anyone tries to export a philosophy by force, they must be leftists, of course, how could i not see it before :roll:
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Well, Napoleon and Stalin were, just two names who have sprung up so far.

As you appear to identify Egalite, Fraternite and the other soundbite with old Nappers, you've certainly gotten stuck into some sticky mud!


'Cos the way to emancipate people is to invade their country, right Left?! And at least Right Wing maniacal dictators aren't as hypocritical as you Lefties, making no bones themselves about wanting to just dominate others.
 
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spud_meister

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Well, Napoleon and Stalin were, just two names who have sprung up so far.

And the way to emancipate people is to invade their country, right Left?!

And as you appear to identify Egalite, Fraternite and the other soundbite with old Nappers, you've certainly gotten stuck into some sticky mud!
yeah, then you got those commie yanks, exported their lefist philosophies the same time russia did, you have the catholic church, them socialist prigs, they were doing it for the better half of the last few centuries, and by god, look how far the british spread their disgusting commie germs during imperialism.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Things like the military expansion of the inroads made by the East India Company were about as far away from Leftiness as you could get, being an early example of military corporate expansion.

I don't remember stories of Catholics flying the Red Flag and burning their own churches as the Communists did! And that's not to mention the American Way being utilised to stop the spread of Communism in South East Asia! If they were the same they'd have JOINED Kim Il Sung's leftist warmongering!


The truth about Marxism is that on paper you have all the cheap chatter about absolute human equality. Yet once Marxism is adopted as a system of government you just get oppression of the people it's supposed to emancipate - EVERY TIME!


IT'S THE CLASSIC HONEY TRAP, WITH ANY LEFTIES CHAMPIONING MARXISM BEING EITHER DELUDED OR CON ARTISTS THEMSELVES!



It's been a common theme amongst the Left to downplay the brutal expansionism and mass-murder which was part and parcel of the most powerful and world-dominating Marxist regimes in history! Saying 'they're not like us' whilst sticking up for their belief system says no little about them.

_____________________________


More lefties living in a world of illusion, resorting to bluster and denial in the face of the truth:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...nst-oppression-anybody-else-see-oxymoron.html
 
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Let's change the demographics of a country in a short period and call everybody who opposes it xenophobes.
Whether you like it or not, 'Sarko' can't help that the right wing is gaining ground in France but he does have to move along to protect his party. Socialism helped getting rid of child labour and it was necessary beginning of last century, free market capitalism has its flaws, there's a need for regulation. These days it seems socialists have a hard time accepting that there's little support for their immigration doctrine. It has failed, get over it.
 
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Arcana XV

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So, basically, what Sarko is advocating is the creation of different levels of citizenship. There'd be the "first class" citizens, ethnic French people born in France, who would retain their citizenship no matter what crime they commit. Then there'd be the "second-class" citizens, who would be stripped of their citizenship if they commit certain types crimes.

How they'll constitutionally justify this sort of discrimination, unheard of since the Déclaration des Droits de L'Homme et du Citoyen was ratified, is beyond me. Is Sarko's party morphing into a new and improved version of the Front National or what??

Second-class citizens in a civilized country. Lord, the mind truly boggles.
 

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/opinion/06fri2.html?ref=nicolas_sarkozy

Xenophobia: Casting Out the Un-French
Published: August 5, 2010

"France has no equivalent to the 14th Amendment, but the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, who likes to be known as Sarko the American, also is fanning dangerous anti-immigrant passions for short-term political gain.

Last week, he proposed stripping foreign-born French citizens of their citizenship if they are convicted of threatening the life of a police officer or other serious crimes. Lest any voter miss the point that such a law would be particularly aimed at Muslim immigrants, Mr. Sarkozy’s interior minister, in charge of the police force, helpfully added polygamy and female circumcision to the list of offenses that could bring loss of citizenship.

Days earlier, Mr. Sarkozy promised to destroy the camps of the Roma and send them back to where they came from, mainly Romania and Bulgaria. Both countries are members of the European Union. Hundreds of thousands of their residents, in France legally, now risk being swept up and expelled in police raids.

And Mr. Sarkozy proposes denying automatic French citizenship to people born in France if their parents are foreign and they have a record of juvenile delinquency.

All of this in a country that has long proudly upheld the principle that all French citizens — native-born or naturalized — are entitled to equal treatment under the law. That applies to Mr. Sarkozy’s Hungarian-born father and Italian-born wife, both naturalized French citizens, and should apply to everyone else.

But immigrant-bashing is popular among nonimmigrant French voters and Mr. Sarkozy has never been shy about doing it. He built his 2007 presidential campaign around his tough record (and inflammatory words) as interior minister. Earlier this year, he ran a divisive campaign to define French national identity because he wanted to fend off the far right anti-immigrant National Front in regional elections. It didn’t work.

Now, with his political fortunes at a new low and the National Front resurgent under younger leadership, he has gone further, worrying traditional conservatives who still believe in the rights of man and the equality of all French citizens. They are right to be concerned, and he is recklessly wrong to ignore their cautionary advice.

Advice to tourists: Don't come visiting France next Fall.
There ought to be lots of protests and even more strikes than usual:shock::)
"

Did you just look at the title and post the article without even reading it or did you just hope that people would be too lazy to read the article? The word xenophobe gets blatantly misused a lot in the US by pro-illegals. So just by looking at this article it appears the author has blatantly misused the word xenophobe. Most people have no problem kicking out unruly guests and foreign born citizens who commit various crimes. Its called kicking out guest who wear out their welcome.
 

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I believe that Sarkozy is simply responding to the French people. The Islamic peoples residing in Europe reproduce at a faster rate, and are immigrating to the country in a never-ending stream, and the legitimate fears of Muslim eventual takeover of the country should not be discounted. I agree no purpose is served by isolating one group, but if this one group poses a dire threat to the safety and welfare of the French people, action must be taken.
 

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I believe that Sarkozy is simply responding to the French people. The Islamic peoples residing in Europe reproduce at a faster rate, and are immigrating to the country in a never-ending stream, and the legitimate fears of Muslim eventual takeover of the country should not be discounted. I agree no purpose is served by isolating one group, but if this one group poses a dire threat to the safety and welfare of the French people, action must be taken.
It isn't the case - as Paris has pointed out, Sarkozy is simply responding (as Chirac did before him) to a resurgent extreme right in France. When Le Pen actually found himself in a Presidential run-off, the whole country united to keep him out - but not discounting that Chirac took some political steps to the hard right in his pre-election campaign. I see this and the recent anti-burka laws as positioning for the elections to come.
 

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It isn't the case - as Paris has pointed out, Sarkozy is simply responding (as Chirac did before him) to a resurgent extreme right in France. When Le Pen actually found himself in a Presidential run-off, the whole country united to keep him out - but not discounting that Chirac took some political steps to the hard right in his pre-election campaign. I see this and the recent anti-burka laws as positioning for the elections to come.
I see, political posturing you say. Perhaps such is the case, but did the French not pass an anti-burka law?
 

paris

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Did you just look at the title and post the article without even reading it or did you just hope that people would be too lazy to read the article? The word xenophobe gets blatantly misused a lot in the US by pro-illegals. So just by looking at this article it appears the author has blatantly misused the word xenophobe. Most people have no problem kicking out unruly guests and foreign born citizens who commit various crimes. Its called kicking out guest who wear out their welcome.
Did you move the final quotation mark in my post on purpose ?

Before I post an article, I read it and expect other people to read it, too -- regardless of their reading comprehension skills !

The article is in no way talking about illegals, it speaks about narky Sarko's wish to strip French citizens of their French nationality, when those citizens commit crimes and have foreign origins, such as being the grandson of an Algerian grandpa who immigrated to France 50 years ago, for instance. Those French citizens are not guests, they are French. Can you brainwashed neo-cons know the difference ?

Xenophobia has always been rampant in France and used for political aims; but I do not expect you to know such a simple bananality !
 
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bub

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So, basically, what Sarko is advocating is the creation of different levels of citizenship. There'd be the "first class" citizens, ethnic French people born in France, who would retain their citizenship no matter what crime they commit. Then there'd be the "second-class" citizens, who would be stripped of their citizenship if they commit certain types crimes.

How they'll constitutionally justify this sort of discrimination, unheard of since the Déclaration des Droits de L'Homme et du Citoyen was ratified, is beyond me. Is Sarko's party morphing into a new and improved version of the Front National or what??

Second-class citizens in a civilized country. Lord, the mind truly boggles.
There must not be total equality when the situations are different.

For example, people under 18 do not have the right to vote. That's a discrimination. But they're not "second-class", they can't vote because we consider that they're not mature enough.

Another example, foreign people (usually) can't vote neither. That's also a discrimination. But that's because we consider that people who have arrived only recently should not have the right to have some influence on the outcomes of the elections.

Third example, to be president of the USA, you must be born in the USA. That's also a discrimination, but the Americans consider that it is justified.

So, there are plenty of discriminations, based on age, gender or origins. They're usually not justified, but sometimes they are.

In the case of the French law about removing the nationality of foreign-born criminals, I think it is a very good idea. Indeed, when you are welcomed in a society, I think you should contribute positively to it. If you do not (for example if you don't work and live at the expense of the others), I do not think you should be allowed to be integrated (= get the citizenship), and if you contribute negatively (for example if you start commiting crimes) I think you should be deported.

We already have many jobless people and many prisonners. I find that the costs imposed upon the rest of the society (those who work) is already very high, and thus I do not think we should let the other's unemployed and criminals live at our expense, I do not think we should stand by them.
 
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