• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Wisconsin is a very good example of how gerrymandering hurts out democracy!

independentusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 10, 2016
Messages
9,402
Reaction score
4,222
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Wisconsin is a small state In the election of 2018 the Democratic candidates got about 190,000 more votes than the GOP candidates for the state Assembly. The Dems got 55% of the vote total and yet they got only 37% of the Assembly seats or 36 out of the 99 seats. This is due to the gerrymandering done by the GOP after the 2010 census. It shows why the idea of one man one vote is a joke. In a gerrymandered state the party in power votes count much more than the party out of power. This is anti-democracy and I am sure there are states now or in the past where the Dems have done the same thing. People in both parties should insure that this does not happen again in any state at any time. We should insure that it is easy for every citizen to register and vote and have their vote count as much as the next person in both national and state elections. The idea of suppressing voters so your party can win an election should horrify every real American. You can not make an argument that says that kind of voter suppression is good for our country and our democracy.
 

Sampson Simpson

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 11, 2018
Messages
5,137
Reaction score
2,795
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
Well, you won't get honesty out of conservatives, they are getting what they want and forcing their will on the majority so they don't care. If dems would do this, they would be losing their ****. They have no honesty and integrity, and don't care about anybody else but themselves and their kind
 

Kal'Stang

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
42,744
Reaction score
22,569
Location
Bonners Ferry ID USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well, you won't get honesty out of conservatives, they are getting what they want and forcing their will on the majority so they don't care. If dems would do this, they would be losing their ****. They have no honesty and integrity, and don't care about anybody else but themselves and their kind

Dems DO do this. Look at Maryland for example.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
80,961
Reaction score
49,090
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Well, you won't get honesty out of conservatives, they are getting what they want and forcing their will on the majority so they don't care. If dems would do this, they would be losing their ****. They have no honesty and integrity, and don't care about anybody else but themselves and their kind

Dems do do this, it's one of the issues. The parties act very similarly. There is a huge issue, IMO with gerrymandered districts across the nation. It would behoove us to find a way in which we can properly divide up districts without gerrymandering. But we'd have to find a way to eliminate or isolate the effect of the parties.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
108,213
Reaction score
52,266
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Well, you won't get honesty out of conservatives, they are getting what they want and forcing their will on the majority so they don't care. If dems would do this, they would be losing their ****. They have no honesty and integrity, and don't care about anybody else but themselves and their kind

The issue is not who does it, but that it is done, and what can be done about it. Historically, and recently, both parties have engaged in gerrymandering. Pointing fingers gets us nowhere, and just causes the kind of tribalism that will prevent anything from actually being done to combat it. You will get people who will point out "dems do it too" and avoid actually discussing the actual issue. If we want to get rid of gerrymandering(and I know it is an important issue to me), then we need to court conservatives and republicans to our side on the issue, not insult them.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
108,213
Reaction score
52,266
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Dems do do this, it's one of the issues. The parties act very similarly. There is a huge issue, IMO with gerrymandered districts across the nation. It would behoove us to find a way in which we can properly divide up districts without gerrymandering. But we'd have to find a way to eliminate or isolate the effect of the parties.

GOD DAMN IT! Stop agreeing with me! People will start to think I am libertarian or something...
 

SDET

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
7,802
Reaction score
1,608
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Where's your outrage about California vote harvesting?
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
80,961
Reaction score
49,090
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
GOD DAMN IT! Stop agreeing with me! People will start to think I am libertarian or something...

I can't help it that the Republicans and Democrats have lost their minds to such degree that the Libertarians are now the rational ones.
 

JasperL

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
52,415
Reaction score
22,297
Location
Tennessee
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Where's your outrage about California vote harvesting?

OK, why do I need to be outraged? If the people asked for a ballot, what is the problem of people collecting their votes so they get cast in the election?

As a general rule, I'm more outraged by efforts to impose barriers to voting than by efforts to make it easier. In fact, I support efforts to make voting easier.
 

SDET

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2015
Messages
7,802
Reaction score
1,608
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
OK, why do I need to be outraged? If the people asked for a ballot, what is the problem of people collecting their votes so they get cast in the election?

As a general rule, I'm more outraged by efforts to impose barriers to voting than by efforts to make it easier. In fact, I support efforts to make voting easier.

For starters, it violates the secret ballot. Harvesters are free to only deliver ballots they like.
 

Helix

Administrator
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
74,979
Reaction score
58,838
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Political gerrymandering should be banned nationwide.
 

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,954
Reaction score
28,528
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Wisconsin is a small state In the election of 2018 the Democratic candidates got about 190,000 more votes than the GOP candidates for the state Assembly. The Dems got 55% of the vote total and yet they got only 37% of the Assembly seats or 36 out of the 99 seats. This is due to the gerrymandering done by the GOP after the 2010 census. It shows why the idea of one man one vote is a joke. In a gerrymandered state the party in power votes count much more than the party out of power. This is anti-democracy and I am sure there are states now or in the past where the Dems have done the same thing. People in both parties should insure that this does not happen again in any state at any time. We should insure that it is easy for every citizen to register and vote and have their vote count as much as the next person in both national and state elections. The idea of suppressing voters so your party can win an election should horrify every real American. You can not make an argument that says that kind of voter suppression is good for our country and our democracy.

The sad reality is that Republicans in government know they are a vanishing breed who will be soon overwhelmed by demographics making it very difficult for them to win if they do not change. And they are reluctant to change because it means leaving the deplorables behind and they are not going to to do that.

So they have a question before them: how do they hold onto power in a age where it becomes difficult and even near impossible to win fair elections?

Answer: stack the election in their favor through tricks like gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics.

You have to remember one thing about many Republicans: they do not believe in government as Democrats do. In fact, many of them have disdain and outright hate for government. So when you tell them that things like gerrymandering and voter suppression and lame duck bills to thwart the will of the people (see today in Wisconsin & Michigan) hurt the image people have of government - they don't care if their actions have that negative effect. They don't care as they don't care if people learn to hate them as much as they despise government.

Here in Michigan, we just passed an amendment to the state constitution taking the power to redraw districts every ten years away from the legislature because of gerrymandering. Perhaps more states need to do the same thing as it is the only thing that will kneecap dishonest state legislators from continue to gerrymander.
 

veritas1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
16,295
Reaction score
5,541
Location
Old Line State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Dems DO do this. Look at Maryland for example.

I've lived my whole life in MD. Believe me, Dems have had power here basically forever and we also have some of the most gerrymandered districts in the country. That we have a GOP governor now is only because of the incompetence of the Dems and the moderate views of Gov. Hogan. Ironically, only two of our 23 counties plus Baltimore city decide most elections because they are the most populous and have, far and away, more Democrats. The rest of the state is usually red.
 

veritas1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
16,295
Reaction score
5,541
Location
Old Line State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The sad reality is that Republicans in government know they are a vanishing breed who will be soon overwhelmed by demographics making it very difficult for them to win if they do not change. And they are reluctant to change because it means leaving the deplorables behind and they are not going to to do that.

So they have a question before them: how do they hold onto power in a age where it becomes difficult and even near impossible to win fair elections?

Answer: stack the election in their favor through tricks like gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics.

You have to remember one thing about many Republicans: they do not believe in government as Democrats do. In fact, many of them have disdain and outright hate for government. So when you tell them that things like gerrymandering and voter suppression and lame duck bills to thwart the will of the people (see today in Wisconsin & Michigan) hurt the image people have of government - they don't care if their actions have that negative effect. They don't care as they don't care if people learn to hate them as much as they despise government.

Here in Michigan, we just passed an amendment to the state constitution taking the power to redraw districts every ten years away from the legislature because of gerrymandering. Perhaps more states need to do the same thing as it is the only thing that will kneecap dishonest state legislators from continue to gerrymander.

Democrats want hordes of illegal aliens to eventually bolster their vote totals. It's why they are soft on illegal immigration. If you want to talk about cynicism and a lust for power, look there. Oh, and Democrats have been gerrymandering for decades. They never minded it when they were doing it everywhere.
 

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,954
Reaction score
28,528
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Democrats want hordes of illegal aliens to eventually bolster their vote totals. It's why they are soft on illegal immigration. If you want to talk about cynicism and a lust for power, look there. Oh, and Democrats have been gerrymandering for decades. They never minded it when they were doing it everywhere.

You must be a American citizen to vote.

And I am against ALL gerrymandering - regardless of which party is guilty of it. So lets get rid of it once and for all time.
 

veritas1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
16,295
Reaction score
5,541
Location
Old Line State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
You must be a American citizen to vote.

And I am against ALL gerrymandering - regardless of which party is guilty of it. So lets get rid of it once and for all time.

Yes, and the illegal immigrants here will eventually be citizens. It's either that or deportation and everyone knows we aren't deporting 15-20 million people.
 

JasperL

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
52,415
Reaction score
22,297
Location
Tennessee
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Democrats want hordes of illegal aliens to eventually bolster their vote totals. It's why they are soft on illegal immigration. If you want to talk about cynicism and a lust for power, look there. Oh, and Democrats have been gerrymandering for decades. They never minded it when they were doing it everywhere.

Yes, Democrats are soft on immigration, which is why the population of undocumented immigrants increased by about 4 million in the Bush II years and dropped during the Obama years, because Republicans (pre-Trump) are so against illegals. Unless they're working on the family dairy farm, like they do at the Rep. Devin Nunes family farm. Or for hotels, or meat packing plants or roofing companies, etc....

FWIW, I'd vote in a second with zero hesitation for a plan to let independent commissions draw districts, and I think most Democrats (with the possible exception of Democrats not in elected office and with a majority) would agree. I'm completely supportive of the results of an election picking the majority. Here in Tennessee I know the GOP will control everything for a while at least and am OK with that. I'd hate to have to depend on gerrymandered legislative districts to let the minority of voters control the power in my area or state. It's anti-democratic.
 

JasperL

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
52,415
Reaction score
22,297
Location
Tennessee
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
For starters, it violates the secret ballot. Harvesters are free to only deliver ballots they like.

No they're not. They're legally obligated to return every ballot they collect, and AFAIK don't even know who the people voted for.
 

veritas1

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
16,295
Reaction score
5,541
Location
Old Line State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yes, Democrats are soft on immigration, which is why the population of undocumented immigrants increased by about 4 million in the Bush II years and dropped during the Obama years, because Republicans (pre-Trump) are so against illegals. Unless they're working on the family dairy farm, like they do at the Rep. Devin Nunes family farm. Or for hotels, or meat packing plants or roofing companies, etc....

FWIW, I'd vote in a second with zero hesitation for a plan to let independent commissions draw districts, and I think most Democrats (with the possible exception of Democrats not in elected office and with a majority) would agree. I'm completely supportive of the results of an election picking the majority. Here in Tennessee I know the GOP will control everything for a while at least and am OK with that. I'd hate to have to depend on gerrymandered legislative districts to let the minority of voters control the power in my area or state. It's anti-democratic.

I've said many times that we should crack down on employers hiring illegal aliens. The real answer is securing the border with the wall and then dealing with all the illegal aliens here already. Deport the bad eggs and make the rest citizens. Democrats don't want that because they know the wall will work. Trump offered double what they asked for the dreamers and they rejected it. That spoke volumes.

Being in MD, I know all about gerrymandering. It should be eliminated.
 

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
65,171
Reaction score
31,940
Location
New Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Dems do do this, it's one of the issues. The parties act very similarly. There is a huge issue, IMO with gerrymandered districts across the nation. It would behoove us to find a way in which we can properly divide up districts without gerrymandering. But we'd have to find a way to eliminate or isolate the effect of the parties.

There are computer generated/drawn districts that would work better their could also be state-wide at-large seats so that there are no districts to gerrymander.
 

JasperL

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
52,415
Reaction score
22,297
Location
Tennessee
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I've said many times that we should crack down on employers hiring illegal aliens. The real answer is securing the border with the wall and then dealing with all the illegal aliens here already. Deport the bad eggs and make the rest citizens. Democrats don't want that because they know the wall will work. Trump offered double what they asked for the dreamers and they rejected it. That spoke volumes.

Being in MD, I know all about gerrymandering. It should be eliminated.

We agree on gerrymandering, so I'll leave it there.
 

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
65,171
Reaction score
31,940
Location
New Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I've lived my whole life in MD. Believe me, Dems have had power here basically forever and we also have some of the most gerrymandered districts in the country. That we have a GOP governor now is only because of the incompetence of the Dems and the moderate views of Gov. Hogan. Ironically, only two of our 23 counties plus Baltimore city decide most elections because they are the most populous and have, far and away, more Democrats. The rest of the state is usually red.

What does gerrymandering have to do with a governor's election?
 

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,954
Reaction score
28,528
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Yes, and the illegal immigrants here will eventually be citizens. It's either that or deportation and everyone knows we aren't deporting 15-20 million people.

I have no problem with a citizen voting - regardless of what process makes them a citizen.
 
Top Bottom