Will the presidential election lead to civil unrest?

[Phys251]

The civil unrest will continue until there are massive police reforms that are effective in preventing the disproportionate killing of black people. If Biden doesn't deliver on police reforms, the civil unrest will continue under his watch too.

A 6-3 SCOTUS would shoot down the reforms. That's one of many reasons the Rethuglicans are rushing Barrett's nomination.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

A 6-3 SCOTUS would shoot them down. That's one of many reasons the Rethuglicans are rushing Barrett's nomination.

A 6-3 SCOTUS would shoot who down?

 

[SheWolf]

Methinks we might be getting ahead of ourselves at this point because Trump will be removed by one Constitutional means or the other. The armed forces do not accept being controlled by hostile foreign powers via the White House and, post November 3rd, the Pentagon if Trump were to remain as Potus and can Esper.

As if Trump's garbage mouth weren't enough the military has had their fill of Trump as it is. Senior officers and NCO are well aware of Trump's contempt and disparaging of people who put in a career with the government and in public service. Trump is actively hostile towards career service of any kind whether civilian or military.

Nor would there be anything positive about yet another turnover at the top of DoD, as we know. A guy such as Sen. Tom Cotton as secdef is the last thing military chiefs would want given Cotton is more mouth than brain. Contested elections and election legitimacy is a dark room to almost everyone despite the high profile Bush v Gore nightmare of 2000. As I've boned up on this stuff it's also taken me to places I'd never have thought of otherwise.

i did see that 500 ex military officers and national security officers came out to support Biden. It doesn’t seem to be a topic many civilians Discuss or focus on. Is that something military members take very seriously? I would assume so.

The place this country is in, is very sad.

 

[Phys251]

A 6-3 SCOTUS would shoot who down?

The reforms. Edited for clarity.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That isn't really relevant to my point.

Regardless, if you want to want to debate the powers of the President, I'm game.

You seem to have a good understanding of the division of powers in theory, but perhaps less understanding of how laws and sausages are made. You are correct that Congress can't pass a Federal law requiring those things, and Biden can't sign one, but that doesn't mean he's completely powerless. Here is how it goes:

BIDEN: The Federal Government has been very very good to Utah. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the Federal Government has been very very good to Utah.

HERBERT: Yes you are absolutely right. Not only 100%, but actually 1000% I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of Federal Aid. It was a tremendous help, but we are really in need of some more.

BIDEN: I would like you to do us a favor though, because our country has been through a lot and Utah knows a lot about it. I would like you to do whatever it takes to get some police reforms in your state. I'll have my personal lawyer send you a list.

Yep, conditionally adding (or denying) “block grants” to any of the several states is a “sausage making” power of congress (I am highly skeptical about via EO), but that does not depend on the POTUS (other than using the veto power).

 

[SheWolf]

Yep, the “mostly peaceful” protestors do not care one bit about Trump or Biden. The disproportionate (criminal) violence against black and brown folks is being perpetrated by other (their fellow) black and brown folks - not (white racist) police officers.

BLM isn’t focused on who causing them physical harm or not, and that person’s skin color. They are focused on Institutionalized racism in the justice system.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

The reforms. Edited for clarity.

An all liberal SCOTUS would probably shoot them down too. My understanding is that Federal Police reforms would run afoul of the 10th Amendment, though I'm happy to be educated if that is not the case.

It just seems like the wrong tool for the job. There are other ways that the Federal Government can bring about the necessary reforms. Federal funding can be made available contingent on the reforms for example.

 

[ttwtt78640]

BLM isn’t focused on who causing them physical harm or not, and that person’s skin color. They are focused on Institutionalized racism in the justice system.

Yep, but primarily at the state/local government level (where “defunding” and “re-imagining” is being sought). My point was that there is precious little that the federal government can do about it - short of bringing federal charges for police “abuse” of someone’s civil rights.

 

[Phys251]

An all liberal SCOTUS would probably shoot them down too. My understanding is that Federal Police reforms would run afoul of the 10th Amendment, though I'm happy to be educated if that is not the case.

It just seems like the wrong tool for the job. There are other ways that the Federal Government can bring about the necessary reforms. Federal funding can be made available contingent on the reforms for example.

trump probably violated the 10th Amendment when he sent federal troops to Portland. A president should never do a thing like that without a damn good reason. Garden-variety vandalism and looting is nowhere near enough.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

trump probably violated the 10th Amendment when he sent federal troops to Portland. A president should never do a thing like that without a damn good reason. Garden-variety vandalism and looting is nowhere near enough.

I don't see how that is relevant to what I said, except for the fact that it contains the term "10th Amendment." Are we playing a word association trivia game?

Portland was flooded after the collapse of glacial dams from Lake Missoula during the last Ice Age.

 

[Phys251]

I don't see how that is relevant to what I said, except for the fact that it contains the term "10th Amendment." Are we playing a word association trivia game?

Portland was flooded after the collapse of glacial dams from Lake Missoula during the last Ice Age.

You were the one who brought up the 10th Amendment. And since you did, you should also recognize that the 14th Amendment directly protects people against infringements of the Constitution by state and local governments. So there is nothing inherently wrong about police reforms at the federal level.

 

[rahl]

The civil unrest will continue until there are massive police reforms that are effective in preventing the disproportionate killing of black people. If Biden doesn't deliver on police reforms, the civil unrest will continue under his watch too.

Black people are not killed by police disproportional to whites.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

You were the one who brought up the 10th Amendment. And since you did, you should also recognize that the 14th Amendment directly protects people against infringements of the Constitution by state and local governments. So there is nothing inherently wrong about police reforms at the federal level.

I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works. If a State attempts to pass a law that violates the constitutional rights and privileges of its citizens, that law can be struck down on the basis of the 14th Amendment. Which law can you strike down that will spontaneously create police reforms ex nihilo?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Blacks people are not killed by police disproportional to whites.

Black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men are.

 

[Phys251]

I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works. If a State attempts to pass a law that violates the constitutional rights and privileges of its citizens, that law can be struck down on the basis of the 14th Amendment. Which law can you strike down that will spontaneously create police reforms ex nihilo?

The Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act specifically targeted states' abuses of people's civil liberties.

 

[rahl]

Black men are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police than white men are.

No they aren’t. Whites are killed at a higher percentage than blacks by police, despite blacks committing over 50% of the violent crime and will statistically have more encounters with police than do whites.

 

[Lutherf]

You really need to work on your poll creating skills.

Your thread title refers to civil unrest. You refers to peaceful transition. And then you drag the military into it.

Tell you what...here's my take on possible civil unrest: If Trump loses, there will be no civil unrest. If Trump wins, the Dems, Trump haters and anarchists will royally **** up the country in retaliation. It's as simple as that.

If Trump loses then there will ABSOLUTELY be civil unrest. It won't bee because of the election. It will be because of what Democrats do once they are in power.

Once Democrats take power they will seek to jail Trump and his family. They will create laws which prohibit the exercise of "unauthorized liberties". They will implement a health care system which treats firearm ownership as a public health risk. They will jail Americans that express dissent against the policies they have enacted. We'll see thousands of people charged with crimes related to "hate". People will resist and the resistance will be treated as an act of insurrection. America will go up in flames.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

The Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act specifically targeted states' abuses of people's civil liberties.

Sure, but look at what those acts do, and then look at the types of reforms that need to happen. We don't need a bill that will outlaw discrimination based on race. We already have that. What we need is reforms that will require cooperation at the State/Local level.

Here are some things that can realistically be done on the Federal Level:

• Placing conditions on federal funding to encourage law enforcement to adopt policy changes to promote better community relations by, for example, expanding training or reforming how use of force investigations are conducted;
• Requiring DOJ to develop model policies or best practices regarding the use of force, training standards, or accreditation;
• Expanding efforts to collect more comprehensive data on the use of force by law enforcement officers;
• Providing grants to law enforcement agencies for the purchase of body-worn cameras for their officers;
• Taking steps to facilitate investigations and prosecutions of excessive force by amending 18 U.S.C. Section 242 to reduce the mens rea standard in federal prosecutions, or place conditions on federal funds to promote the use of special prosecutors at the state level;
• Using the influence of congressional authority to affect the direction of national criminal justice policy.

Fun Fact: Screwdrivers are better at driving screws than hammers are.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

No they aren’t. Whites are killed at a higher percentage than blacks by police, despite blacks committing over 50% of the violent crime and will statistically have more encounters with police than do whites.

You are misinformed. I know it is easy to imagine that a headline you read in Breitbart is equivalent in value to a rigorously peer-reviewed study when you don't understand how peer-reviewed studies work, but it just isn't so.

 

[Phys251]

Sure, but look at what those acts do, and then look at the types of reforms that need to happen. We don't need a bill that will outlaw discrimination based on race. We already have that. What we need is reforms that will require cooperation at the State/Local level.

Seems like that's not enough and that there needs to be more work to be done there.

Here are some things that can realistically be done on the Federal Level:

• Placing conditions on federal funding to encourage law enforcement to adopt policy changes to promote better community relations by, for example, expanding training or reforming how use of force investigations are conducted;
• Requiring DOJ to develop model policies or best practices regarding the use of force, training standards, or accreditation;
• Expanding efforts to collect more comprehensive data on the use of force by law enforcement officers;  providing grants to law enforcement agencies for the purchase of body-worn cameras for their officers;
• Taking steps to facilitate investigations and prosecutions of excessive force by amending 18 U.S.C. Section 242 to reduce the mens rea standard in federal prosecutions, or place conditions on federal funds to promote the use of special prosecutors at the state level;
• Using the influence of congressional authority to affect the direction of national criminal justice policy.

Fun Fact: Screwdrivers are better at driving screws than hammers are.

This is a good start, but more will need to be done.

One thing that needs to happen is for us to stop expecting police to solve everything. You said it yourself, you need the right tool for the job. We call on the police to solve many tasks that social workers, teachers, and community advocates are far better suited to train. For instance, sometimes people who openly defy the police are simply at wit's end with everything. Or they're high as hell and can't follow simple directions.

Brute force may squash these people, but it does not solve the underlying problem, and to that community it can make the problem worse.

 

[HennyBogan]

You really need to work on your poll creating skills.

Your thread title refers to civil unrest. You refers to peaceful transition. And then you drag the military into it.

Tell you what...here's my take on possible civil unrest: If Trump loses, there will be no civil unrest. If Trump wins, the Dems, Trump haters and anarchists will royally **** up the country in retaliation. It's as simple as that.

Basically what they’ve been doing the last 4 years

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

Seems like that's not enough and that there needs to be more work to be done there.



This is a good start, but more will need to be done.

One thing that needs to happen is for us to stop expecting police to solve everything. You said it yourself, you need the right tool for the job. We call on the police to solve many tasks that social workers, teachers, and community advocates are far better suited to train. For instance, sometimes people who openly defy the police are simply at wit's end with everything. Or they're high as hell and can't follow simple directions.

Brute force may squash these people, but it does not solve the underlying problem, and to that community it can make the problem worse.

I don't disagree with any of that. I was specifically addressing what can Constitutionally be done at the Federal Level.

 

[Phys251]

Keep in mind the last sentence of Amendments 14, 15, and so on that have some variant of " The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."

This means that it's well within the power of the legislative process to correct the systemic ills that you and I agree exist at the state and local level.

 

[rahl]

You are misinformed. I know it is easy to imagine that a headline you read in Breitbart is equivalent in value to a rigorously peer-reviewed study when you don't understand how peer-reviewed studies work, but it just isn't so.

I don’t read Breitbart. I use fbi crime data and police shooting statistics. Both show blacks are not killed by police disproportionaly

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I don’t read Breitbart. I use fbi crime data and police shooting statistics. Both show blacks are not killed by police disproportionaly

Where are the links? Did you create your own study based on the FBI crime data and police shooting statistics? What was your methodology for determining proportionality in your study? Has it been peer-reviewed yet?