Tashah said:
Do you know of any other MENA country besides Israel where every citizen can vote and all elections are honest and upright? Why don't they emulate Israel? You already know the answer Chris.
Don’t get me wrong I’m pro-democracy. I want the Arab people to find the strength to liberate themselves from their oppressive leaders. I was trying to draw attention to what I feel is a dangerous precedent in general. If Jews can have their own quasi religious state why shouldn’t Punjabi Sikhs or Bosnian Muslims?
Tashah said:
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but Islam predates Zionism by many centuries. What was the excuse for unprecedented Muslim hatred before Zionism?
The amount of hatred directed at Jews and non-Muslims in general is far greater now than historically. I don’t know that the Arabs were ever exceptionally tolerant of minorities but they generally didn’t brutalize, expel, or mass murder as the European Christians often did. The Ottoman Turks (who controlled most of the Arabic ME) were generally very tolerant of non-Muslims for that time
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/History+of+the+Jews+in+Turkey.
As I touched on before, most of it is irrational hate fed by the propaganda machines of local leaders, rather than genuine objection to Israeli policies/military actions. Israel is not completely innocent, but it is used as a convenient scapegoat so often that many oppressed Muslims view it as the source of most of their problems regardless. People who claim to hate Israel or the Western world in general usually do so because they are not free to think objectively. They know only what their rulers allow them to see and hear. I’m not apologizing for the actions of such people, what I’m saying is that if people were more informed they’d be less drawn to groups like al Queda and therefore this should be our primary aim in fighting terrorism. Most Arab Muslims have probably never even met a Jewish person, how can they possibly justify blaming Jews for all their problems?
Tashah said:
Since it is my field, I could also easily argue that modern physics has a Jewish influence far, far beyond its global demographic. In Western culture, Jewish influence is deep and pervasive in religion, science, philosophy, medicine, economics, politics, law, and the arts (yup, even Hollywood). For the life of me, I cannot understand anti-Semitism in light of how much the Jewish people have contributed to civilization. Jealousy?
I think mostly its just ignorance. People often fear what they don’t understand.
Tashah said:
Until all Arabic peoples accept Israel as a soverign nation with a right to exist in peace and harmony, there will be discord. Israel has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and with Morocco probably in 2006. Nothing terrible has happened to these Arab nations. Pakistan recently indicated that it is interested in formal diplomatic relations with Israel. Many Arab nations are beginning to realize that Israel is here to stay... and the benefits of mutual cooperation far outweigh archaic religious and historical prejudices.
I try to take an optimistic view here but I think that ultimately only genuine democracy and personal freedom will change the attitudes of the Arabs as a whole. People who are denied the ability to view objective information are nearly impossible to find consensus with. For instance, how meaningful are peace treaties if most ordinary citizens would still like to see Israel wiped off the map?
Tashah said:
Why is a tiny Jewish state (smaller that New Jersey) so unreasonable in the great expanses of the Middle East? Why must the Middle East be exclusively Muslim? Why must Eretz Israel itself become a Jewish diaspora? Why do your 'feelings' not also apply to other entities that have separated such as Eritrea/Ethiopia, Serbia/Bosnia etc?
The size of the land is irrelevant. Kashmir, Aceh, Taiwan, and many other areas of dispute are little more than tiny blips on the global map. An area doesn’t have to be large to cause a great deal of conflict. The Middle East should not be exclusively Muslim just as Europe should not be exclusively Christian, India Hindu, etc. I acknowledge that this is the reality in most ME countries, but it should not be.
For the record I think Serbia and Bosnia would be best to reunite. Their division is more religious and political than genuinely cultural. Obviously the prospects of this happening are slim, but nonetheless I feel that they would be better to reconcile than remain weak and divided.
Tashah said:
Saudi Arabia is a Muslim state, because Saudis wish it to be a Muslim state. Be that as it may, the differences between a Jewish Israel and a Muslim kingdom are legion....
The leaders of Saudi Arabia are the reason Saudi Arabia is a Muslim theocracy. The average Saudi citizen has little if any meaningful say in how their country is run. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve never seen or heard of anyone actually researching the amount of internal support the Royal family has. Even if support for an Islamic theocracy is high, I’m confident that would change considerably if the people had access to independent media.
Tashah said:
You can visit Israel anytime you wish Chris, but you cannot visit the Kingdom. It is closed to all non-Muslims without the express permission of the Saudi government. You could indeed become a non-Jewish citizen of Israel Chris. You could never become a Saudi citizen... not even if you converted to Islam. Israel has free, open, and binding elections Chris. The Kingdom has no such quaint liberties. If you wished Chris, you could even marry a Jewish Israeli woman and live happily ever after. You could never marry a Muslim Saudi woman without a concomitant death sentence that would follow you to the ends of the Earth. The next time you have the urge to chastise Israel Chris, think a bit about the simple things in life.
Chris said:
The Saudi dictatorship is a disgrace to democracy, a disgrace to Islam, and a disgrace to the Arab people.
I think that Saudi Arabia is probably the worst regime in the world today. There are individual rulers who treat their people worse, but the difference between someone like Kim Jong Il and the Saudis lies in their global influence. Kim may have a lot of weapons but has no economy or alliances to back them up. The man could cause a lot of havoc to Japan and South Korea but his influence is regional at best. The Saudis don’t pose much of a military threat, but then again a strong military is hardly necessary. The Saudis have so much oil money invested in countries like the US, EU, Japan, etc they are able to command a huge influence over those economies. As they also preside over many of the holiest sites in Islam they command a great deal of respect from many Islamic countries and are seen as somewhat of a role model. The fundamentalist Wahabi sect of Islam is funded the world over by the Saudis. From Indonesia to Pakistan, from Chechnya to France, Saudi money funds a distorted/hateful interpretation of Islam. The actual Saudi Royals are largely the polar opposite of that. They drink, gamble, attend Western schools, embrace large amounts of American culture, etc. In general they casually do things that ordinary citizens would probably be hanged for. Whabism is a tool plain and simple. It keeps the masses distracted from the real source of the ME’s misery while the rulers lavish over the country’s oil wealth.
I’m rambling but seriously, Craig Unger’s House of Bush, House of Saud is an excellent read for those interested in learning more about the many contradictions in the Saudi/American relationship.
http://www.houseofbush.com/
