• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Why does Israel have to be a "Jewish" state?

Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't know that you could make that argument historically, much less with today's Palestinians.

Hrm?
Tell me this (Since you will probably call my sources of information biased), tell me when there has ever been a nation of Palestine.

Tell me when the nationality "Palestinian" came about.
 
Caine said:
The Palestinians society was created at the expense of the Israelis

So what part don't you get, about creating an artifical state in 1947, and partitioning Palestine into a Jewish state, and an Arab state?" Sounds like everyone got screwed, when in reality people of Jewish religion didn't need a nation just for themselves but rather people in Europe and everywhere in the world need to be more tolerant and accepting of people of different faiths.

If the UN had been smart, Palestine, should have remained Palestine, but it should have been mandated as a completely secular state for Jews, Christains, Muslims, etc.

But maybe I'll claim an atheist state specifically for atheists, out somewhere in Siberia, so that us atheists can live in peace, as the Abrahamists continue to slaughter each other in the name of your god......
 
Australianlibertarian said:
So what part don't you get, about creating an artifical state in 1947, and partitioning Palestine into a Jewish state, and an Arab state?" Sounds like everyone got screwed, when in reality people of Jewish religion didn't need a nation just for themselves but rather people in Europe and everywhere in the world need to be more tolerant and accepting of people of different faiths.

If the UN had been smart, Palestine, should have remained Palestine, but it should have been mandated as a completely secular state for Jews, Christains, Muslims, etc.

But maybe I'll claim an atheist state specifically for atheists, out somewhere in Siberia, so that us atheists can live in peace, as the Abrahamists continue to slaughter each other in the name of your god......

Again, I ask you, when was Palestine an independant nation???
 
So does that mean we DENY people their idenitity and a country to live in, because they have never had any history of being a free people?
 
Australianlibertarian said:
So does that mean we DENY people their idenitity and a country to live in, because they have never had any history of being a free people?

They have identity and a country to live in.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
....By not blowing themselves up?



I can agree with this, but I think you have to remember that Israel's society was created at the expense of the Palestinians.

Well, I think it's too complex of a situation to say it's all Israel's fault for the plight of the Palestinians.
 
Chris said:
Change is never easy but it does happen. Compare the situation of Jews in Germany in the 1930's to their situation today. Or American blacks in the 1800's to their situation today. Much of the anti-Jewish attitude of Arab populations stems from the propadanda of their leadership. Take the current Arab dictatorships out of the picture and prospects for reconciliation between the two groups would become much more feasible.

I agree, it's the leadership of the Palestinians that has been the cause of so much suffering similar to Nazi Germany. It's amazing how Israel has come so far in such a short amount of time.
 
Caine said:
Hrm?
Tell me this (Since you will probably call my sources of information biased), tell me when there has ever been a nation of Palestine.

Tell me when the nationality "Palestinian" came about.

Palestine Defined

The term Palestine is derived from the name of the Philistines, a people of uncertain origins, possibly Aegean, who, in the 12th century BCE, settled along the southern Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip and disappeared several centuries later. After crushing Bar Kokhba's revolt (132-135), the Romans Latinized the hitherto seldom-used Greek name Παλαιστίνη (Palaestina) and applied it to the entire region that had formerly included Iudaea Province (which combined Judea, Samaria, and Idumea). The Arabic toponym Filastin (فلسطين) is derived from this name.

Ancient Palestine.

In historical contexts, especially predating the establishment of the State of Israel, Palestine was mostly a geographical term, particularly used in Greek, Latin, Arabic, and other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from them; it comprised the Roman sub-province of Syria Palaestina, roughly equivalent to ancient Canaan (including the Biblical kingdoms of Israel, Judah, Moab, Ammon, and Philistia) and thus included much of the land on either side of the Jordan River although with further political sub-divisions along the River Jordan valley .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine#Palestinian

It was always more of a geographical reference. People began claiming it as their nationality shortly after the partition and the creation of Israel.
 
Gandhi>Bush said:
Palestine Defined

The term Palestine is derived from the name of the Philistines, a people of uncertain origins, possibly Aegean, who, in the 12th century BCE, settled along the southern Mediterranean coastal plain of what is now Israel and the Gaza Strip and disappeared several centuries later. After crushing Bar Kokhba's revolt (132-135), the Romans Latinized the hitherto seldom-used Greek name Παλαιστίνη (Palaestina) and applied it to the entire region that had formerly included Iudaea Province (which combined Judea, Samaria, and Idumea). The Arabic toponym Filastin (فلسطين) is derived from this name.

Ancient Palestine.

In historical contexts, especially predating the establishment of the State of Israel, Palestine was mostly a geographical term, particularly used in Greek, Latin, Arabic, and other languages taking their geographical vocabulary from them; it comprised the Roman sub-province of Syria Palaestina, roughly equivalent to ancient Canaan (including the Biblical kingdoms of Israel, Judah, Moab, Ammon, and Philistia) and thus included much of the land on either side of the Jordan River although with further political sub-divisions along the River Jordan valley .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine#Palestinian

It was always more of a geographical reference. People began claiming it as their nationality shortly after the partition and the creation of Israel.

Yes, and these Philistines attempted to take this land from the Israelites.
Yes, granted the real "owners" of the land are the Caananites, you wont find too many of them, since the Israelites came out of Egypt and slaughtered everyone that lived in Caanan, then settled on the land.
Palestine came from when the Romans invaded and renamed the Israeli lands, "Palestine".
 
Actually, in Roman times is was Judea. Palestine wasn't around until the Middle Ages.
 
Caine said:
The Palestinians society was created at the expense of the Israelis
Personally I've never accepted the idea of a Palestinian nationality. The so called "Palestinians" are culturally Arabs just like the inhabitants of Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. Nonetheless I see no reason why they should be viewed as having any less a right to live and exist on the land they have inhabited for hundreds of years. The Israelis have only lived on the land since the late 1800's at earliest. Regardless whether the Israelis are directly descended from the expelled Judeans (which is doubtful) I fail to see why this justifies expelling the Arab inhabitants.
 
Chris said:
The Israelis have only lived on the land since the late 1800's at earliest. Regardless whether the Israelis are directly descended from the expelled Judeans (which is doubtful) I fail to see why this justifies expelling the Arab inhabitants.

Uh, wrong. Not every Jew was expelled, and many returned during the Middle Ages.
 
Chris said:
Personally I've never accepted the idea of a Palestinian nationality. The so called "Palestinians" are culturally Arabs just like the inhabitants of Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc.
The 'Palestinians' of today are descendents of the defunct nation of Transjordan, Egyptian expatriots, and nomad Bedouin from Sinai/Negev.

Chris said:
Nonetheless I see no reason why they should be viewed as having any less a right to live and exist on the land they have inhabited for hundreds of years.
The Palestinians do in fact live in the modern state of Palestine which was created in 1947 by UN resolution.

Chris said:
The Israelis have only lived on the land since the late 1800's at earliest. Regardless whether the Israelis are directly descended from the expelled Judeans (which is doubtful) I fail to see why this justifies expelling the Arab inhabitants.
Israeli descendents of the Twelve Tribes of Israel have lived in this land since the patriarch Abraham. At no time has Israel/Samaria/Judea/Palestinia been devoid of an Israeli presence. Contrary to what you may believe, the expulsions mainly targeted civil/religious authorities and the national intelligentsia.

Arabs were indeed expelled during the many wars they have waged against Israel since 1948. Many others left voluntarily with the view that once the fighting subsided and the Arab armies were victorious, they would return not only to reclaim their land but also to stake claims to new Israeli land. Much to Palestinian dismay and embarassment, the people of Israel have repelled all Arab incursions.

Israel is technically a quasi-democracy and not a theocratic 'Jewish state'. Its laws forbid both ethnic and religious discrimination. Indeed, Israel has many Muslim, Christian, and Druze citizens. Israel is perceived as a Jewish state because the overwhelming majority of its citizens are adherents of the Judaic faith. Israel is a recognized soverign state and its laws deliniate Israeli citizenship. Your embracement of the position that few modern Israelis are descendents of ancient Israel is problematic genetically and is a contemporary moot point. The laws of Israel state that I am an Israeli citizen, despite your own personal expectations and ruminations vis-a-vis ethnicity, genetics, ancestory, heritage, and lineage.



 
Chris said:
Personally I've never accepted the idea of a Palestinian nationality. The so called "Palestinians" are culturally Arabs just like the inhabitants of Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. Nonetheless I see no reason why they should be viewed as having any less a right to live and exist on the land they have inhabited for hundreds of years. The Israelis have only lived on the land since the late 1800's at earliest. Regardless whether the Israelis are directly descended from the expelled Judeans (which is doubtful) I fail to see why this justifies expelling the Arab inhabitants.


At the end of WWII European countries reabsorbed their people displaced by the war. The Jordanians,Egyptians,and Syrians displaced by those countries attempt to destroy Israel in 1948.Refused to take their people in and stuck them in refugee camps to use as a weapon against Israel.They brain washed them into believing that their situation was caused by Israel ,not them.
AS to the war itself,Israel did not try to run the Arabs out of their homes.The Arab nations told their people that Israel was going to murder them ,so they should flee .
 
vergiss said:
Uh, wrong. Not every Jew was expelled, and many returned during the Middle Ages.
I should have been more specific here. When I said "Israeli" I was trying to imply the Jews who have settled in Israel/Palestine since the start of the Zionist movement in the late 19th century. There was always a Jewish minority in the region and indeed throughout most of the Middle East.

Tashah said:
Israel is technically a quasi-democracy and not a theocratic 'Jewish state'. Its laws forbid both ethnic and religious discrimination. Indeed, Israel has many Muslim, Christian, and Druze citizens. Israel is perceived as a Jewish state because the overwhelming majority of its citizens are adherents of the Judaic faith. Israel is a recognized soverign state and its laws deliniate Israeli citizenship. Your embracement of the position that few modern Israelis are descendents of ancient Israel is problematic genetically and is a contemporary moot point. The laws of Israel state that I am an Israeli citizen, despite your own personal expectations and ruminations vis-a-vis ethnicity, genetics, ancestory, heritage, and lineage.
I'm not out simply to **** people off. I respect differences of opinion, I'm just saying that I personally don't agree with the genetic/family lineage arguments in regard to Jewish identity. The following link describes several genetic studies, with some surprising results; http://www.humanitas-international.org/perezites/news/jewish-dna-nytimes.htm. The part describing the genetic link between Jewish and Palestinian men makes the value put on Jewish lineage especially ironic. Personally I could care less what someone’s genetic background is, the only reason I give this any thought is because Israeli law deems it to have value to one’s Jewishness.

I also fail to see how Israel can claim to be a genuinely secular state when one group of people (Jews) are given automatic citizenship regardless of what country they come from simply because they adhere to a religion or are the next of kin of people who adhere to that religion. Meanwhile the Arab Muslims are denied the same thing on the grounds that it would destroy the “Jewish character” of Israel if they again constituted a majority. If Jews were denied immigration to Canada on the grounds that it would destroy the “Christian character” of the country, we’d be rightfully condemned as racist bigots the world over.

I appreciate the fact that many of these (IMO) discriminatory practices are done out of necessity for Israel’s survival and not necessarily out of choice. The rest of the world certainly hasn’t done much to foster the idea that Jews and non-Jews can co-exist peacefully nor stood up for them in times of persecution. And while I sympathize with the suffering of the average Palestinian civilian, I’m by no means an apologist for the actions of their leaders or terrorist groups. Much of the continued misery of these people is self inflicted by their unwillingness to seek out a mutually agreeable solution to the conflict. But denying them any prospect of a right of return while Jews everywhere are guaranteed one is hardly reasonable either.
 
Chris said:
I should have been more specific here. When I said "Israeli" I was trying to imply the Jews who have settled in Israel/Palestine since the start of the Zionist movement in the late 19th century. There was always a Jewish minority in the region and indeed throughout most of the Middle East.


I'm not out simply to **** people off. I respect differences of opinion, I'm just saying that I personally don't agree with the genetic/family lineage arguments in regard to Jewish identity. The following link describes several genetic studies, with some surprising results; http://www.humanitas-international.org/perezites/news/jewish-dna-nytimes.htm. The part describing the genetic link between Jewish and Palestinian men makes the value put on Jewish lineage especially ironic. Personally I could care less what someone’s genetic background is, the only reason I give this any thought is because Israeli law deems it to have value to one’s Jewishness.

I also fail to see how Israel can claim to be a genuinely secular state when one group of people (Jews) are given automatic citizenship regardless of what country they come from simply because they adhere to a religion or are the next of kin of people who adhere to that religion. Meanwhile the Arab Muslims are denied the same thing on the grounds that it would destroy the “Jewish character” of Israel if they again constituted a majority. If Jews were denied immigration to Canada on the grounds that it would destroy the “Christian character” of the country, we’d be rightfully condemned as racist bigots the world over.

I appreciate the fact that many of these (IMO) discriminatory practices are done out of necessity for Israel’s survival and not necessarily out of choice. The rest of the world certainly hasn’t done much to foster the idea that Jews and non-Jews can co-exist peacefully nor stood up for them in times of persecution. And while I sympathize with the suffering of the average Palestinian civilian, I’m by no means an apologist for the actions of their leaders or terrorist groups. Much of the continued misery of these people is self inflicted by their unwillingness to seek out a mutually agreeable solution to the conflict. But denying them any prospect of a right of return while Jews everywhere are guaranteed one is hardly reasonable either.
They should return to the arab states they came from and live there. Israel is right to maintain its jwishness,the country is a haven for jews that have been persecuted for centuries and are the targets of muslim barbarism.Israel can only depend on itself for survival.
 
Chris said:
I respect differences of opinion, I'm just saying that I personally don't agree with the genetic/family lineage arguments in regard to Jewish identity. Personally I could care less what someone’s genetic background is, the only reason I give this any thought is because Israeli law deems it to have value to one’s Jewishness.
Just as Muslim countries base secular law on Islamic jurisprudence (Sharia), Israel bases a good portion of its civil code on Judaic law (Halakha). According to Halakha, any child born to a Jewish mother (genetics) is considered Jewish and thus eligible for Israeli citizenship under the "Law of Return'.

Chris said:
I also fail to see how Israel can claim to be a genuinely secular state when one group of people (Jews) are given automatic citizenship regardless of what country they come from simply because they adhere to a religion or are the next of kin of people who adhere to that religion.
Israel does not... and has never claimed to be a genuine secular state. As I explained to you before, Israel is a quasi-democracy.

Chris said:
Meanwhile the Arab Muslims are denied the same thing on the grounds that it would destroy the 'Jewish character' of Israel if they again constituted a majority.
A Muslim majority would indeed destroy the 'Jewish character' of Israel... would it not? What then would be the purpose of Israel? Why then did the United Nations partition the Holy Land into Israel and Palestine?

Firstly, you must understand that Israel is not a clone of either the United States or Canada... and was never meant to be. Secondly, you are deceiving yourself if you think all nations wish to be demographically multicultural. Israelis have no desire to live with Arabs, and the converse is also true.

Chris said:
If Jews were denied immigration to Canada on the grounds that it would destroy the 'Christian character' of the country, we’d be rightfully condemned as racist bigots the world over.
Jews were indeed denied immigration to almost every country during the Third Reich and the result was six million dead... so please don't deign to lecture me on immigration policy.

You devoutly claim to be impartial in your views towards Israel/Palestine, yet your thread title implies otherwise. You could just as easily have asked the question 'Why does Saudi Arabia have to be a 'Muslim' state'? You know very well that the Kingdom is a Muslim state, and yet you question why Israel is a Jewish state. What is different in this equation?

Saudi Arabia is not like Canada. Iran is not like Canada. Singapore is not like Canada. India is not like Canada. Kenya is not like Canada... and on and on ad nauseum. Please... stop demanding that Israel be like Canada. It is a soverign nation with its own character and laws like every other soverign nation. Saudi Arabia is majority Muslim and all its citizens must be Muslim. Israel is majority Jewish and extends citizenship to all Jews. Get over it and move on Chris.



 
So wait a sec. You have to be of the Jewish religion to get citizenship in Israel? Suppose I went over there. As a Roman Catholic person of various European and Lebanese decent, what rights would I have?

I know a lot of the Muslim countries have imposed Islamic laws in their state governments but that does that make it right? Are not democracy and freedom two of the most civilized and moral elements a society can posess?

I'm also curious as to why, Tashah, you say that Jews don't want to live among arabs. It's just, you know, not all arabs are bad. There are people who would say I am part arab and I don't consider myself to be any kind of a threat to the Jews. In fact, I feel somewhat of a bond with the Jews because of my middle eastern heritage, because we're both from the same part of the world. But I know that many arabs in the Middle East don't feel the same way I do.

I will point out that you are, indeed, right Tashah that the Jews were denied immigration to European countries before WW2. I can see how you would want to be cautious. But still, if so many civilized and industrialized countries like America and England have adopted democracy, why can't Israel or any other country in the Middle East for that matter?
 
George_Washington said:
So wait a sec. You have to be of the Jewish religion to get citizenship in Israel?

No. It's just automatic if you are Jewish.

George_Washington said:
...But still, if so many civilized and industrialized countries like America and England have adopted democracy, why can't Israel or any other country in the Middle East for that matter?

What's your definition of a democracy? A secular state? You do realise that the UK isn't a secular state, right?
 
Tashah said:
Just as Muslim countries base secular law on Islamic jurisprudence (Sharia), Israel bases a good portion of its civil code on Judaic law (Halakha). According to Halakha, any child born to a Jewish mother (genetics) is considered Jewish and thus eligible for Israeli citizenship under the "Law of Return'.
If Jewish Israeli and Palestinian Arab men are of the same genetic stock what right does the Israeli government have to deny them the same right to return? What I was trying to show was the irony of that concept as a legally binding law.

Israel does not... and has never claimed to be a genuine secular state. As I explained to you before, Israel is a quasi-democracy.
This quasi-democracy state is what worries me. If Israel can be a quasi democracy why shouldn’t other countries do the same?

Tashah said:
A Muslim majority would indeed destroy the 'Jewish character' of Israel... would it not? What then would be the purpose of Israel? Why then did the United Nations partition the Holy Land into Israel and Palestine? [/FONT]
If Jews were not persecuted by the region's Muslims I don't feel that the religious makeup of the country would matter. Israel was created as a safe haven for a group of people who had no safe haven throughout most of the world. However, I disagree with Zionism as the best solution to this problem. The upwards of 10 million Jews outside of Israel shouldn't be forced to immigrate there out of necessity for survival. People should be able to live and contribute to society in whatever country they live in. I don't feel that Zionism is a good solution to anti-Semitism because it does nothing to address the root of the problem (racism among non-Jews) and has created many of its own (unprecedented hatred of Jews by a large portion of the Muslim world).

You could easily argue that the US has a great deal of "Jewish character". Many elements of American culture have been greatly influenced by Judaism, despite the fact that only a small of the country is actually Jewish. A group of people doesn't need to form a majority to have a major influence. As for the UN partition plan, I never felt it provided a realistic solution, hence its failure.

Tashah said:
Firstly, you must understand that Israel is not a clone of either the United States or Canada... and was never meant to be. Secondly, you are deceiving yourself if you think all nations wish to be demographically multicultural. Israelis have no desire to live with Arabs, and the converse is also true.
[/FONT]
Israel is a very multi-cultural country. Almost all of Israel’s people are descended of people who immigrated there from all over the world. And while the majority of citizens are Jews, there is a significant non-Jewish minority (about 20% of the country). I agree with you that most Arabs probably have little or no desire to co-exist with you guys either. The question I ask is if given the choice would you rather co-exist peacefully with them or live separately and constantly be at one another’s throats? Only when both agree that the first option is better than the later will there be any prospect for that elusive peace.

Tashah said:
Jews were indeed denied immigration to almost every country during the Third Reich and the result was six million dead... so please don't deign to lecture me on immigration policy.
My intent was not to lecture. I was simply trying to get people to look at things from other people’s perspectives. The failure of the world to respond to the plight of German Jews during the 1930’s was a monumental tragedy and a shameful part of my country’s history.

Tashah said:
You devoutly claim to be impartial in your views towards Israel/Palestine, yet your thread title implies otherwise. You could just as easily have asked the question 'Why does Saudi Arabia have to be a 'Muslim' state'? You know very well that the Kingdom is a Muslim state, and yet you question why Israel is a Jewish state. What is different in this equation?

Saudi Arabia is not like Canada. Iran is not like Canada. Singapore is not like Canada. India is not like Canada. Kenya is not like Canada... and on and on ad nauseum. Please... stop demanding that Israel be like Canada. It is a sovereign nation with its own character and laws like every other sovereign nation. Saudi Arabia is majority Muslim and all its citizens must be Muslim. Israel is majority Jewish and extends citizenship to all Jews. Get over it and move on Chris.
I don’t favor one group over the other, nor do I blame individuals for all of their leader’s actions. Although I make no apologies in expressing my objection to actions or policies that I find are unfair or unreasonable. I feel that demanding Israel remain a Jewish state at the expense of several million Muslim Arabs or the prospect of peace and reconciliation, is unreasonable.

There is no reason why Saudi Arabia or any country for that matter, has to be a “Muslim” state or should be. The Saudi dictatorship is a disgrace to democracy, a disgrace to Islam, and a disgrace to the Arab people. Much of the world’s widespread Islamic fanaticism is a bi-product of the regime’s actions to consolidate their power. By manipulating their people’s frustration away from the leaders (the real cause) and onto some scapegoat (ex: other religions, countries, cultures, etc) their able to continue their lavish lifestyle, while fostering a global attitude of hate and intolerance.
 
Chris said:
This quasi-democracy state is what worries me. If Israel can be a quasi democracy why shouldn’t other countries do the same?
Do you know of any other MENA country besides Israel where every citizen can vote and all elections are honest and upright? Why don't they emulate Israel? You already know the answer Chris.

Chris said:
If Jews were not persecuted by the region's Muslims I don't feel that the relgious makeup of the country would matter.
Yes, and if the moon were made of cream-cheese...

Chris said:
Israel was created as a safe haven for a group of people who had no safe haven throughout most of the world. However, I disagree with Zionism as the best solution to this problem. The upwards of 10 million Jews outside of Israel shouldn't be forced to immigrate there out of necessity for survival. People should be able to live and contribute to society in whatever country they live in. I don't feel that Zionism is a good solution to anti-Semitism because it does nothing to address the root of the problem (racism among non-Jews) and has created many of its own (unprecedented hatred of Jews by a large portion of the Muslim world).
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but Islam predates Zionism by many centuries. What was the excuse for unprecedented Muslim hatred before Zionism?

Chris said:
You could easily argue that the US has a great deal of "Jewish character". Many elements of American culture have been greatly influenced by Judaism, despite the fact that only a small of the country is actually Jewish. A group of people doesn't need to form a majority to have a major influence. As for the UN partition plan, I never felt it provided a realistic solution, hence its failure.
Since it is my field, I could also easily argue that modern physics has a Jewish influence far, far beyond its global demographic. In Western culture, Jewish influence is deep and pervasive in religion, science, philosophy, medicine, economics, politics, law, and the arts (yup, even Hollywood). For the life of me, I cannot understand anti-Semitism in light of how much the Jewish people have contributed to civilization. Jealousy?

Chris said:
Israel is a very multi-cultural country. Almost all of Israel’s people are descended of people who immigrated there from all over the world. And while the majority of citizens are Jews, there is a significant non-Jewish minority (about 20% of the country). I agree with you that most Arabs probably have little or no desire to co-exist with you guys either. The question I ask is if given the choice would you rather co-exist peacefully with them or live separately and constantly be at one another’s throats? Only when both agree that the first option is better than the later will there be any prospect for that elusive peace.
Until all Arabic peoples accept Israel as a soverign nation with a right to exist in peace and harmony, there will be discord. Israel has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and with Morocco probably in 2006. Nothing terrible has happened to these Arab nations. Pakistan recently indicated that it is interested in formal diplomatic relations with Israel. Many Arab nations are beginning to realize that Israel is here to stay... and the benefits of mutual cooperation far outweigh archaic religious and historical prejudices.

Chris said:
My intent was not to lecture. I was simply trying to get people to look at things from other people’s perspectives. The failure of the world to respond to the plight of German Jews during the 1930’s was a monumental tragedy and a shameful part of my country’s history.
I didn't mean to be harsh. My apologies.

Chris said:
I don’t favor one group over the other, nor do I blame individuals for all of their leader’s actions. Although I make no apologies in expressing my objection to actions or policies that I find are unfair or unreasonable. I feel that demanding Israel remain a Jewish state at the expense of several million Muslim Arabs or the prospect of peace and reconciliation, is unreasonable.
Why is a tiny Jewish state (smaller that New Jersey) so unreasonable in the great expanses of the Middle East? Why must the Middle East be exclusively Muslim? Why must Eretz Israel itself become a Jewish diaspora? Why do your 'feelings' not also apply to other entities that have separated such as Eritrea/Ethiopia, Serbia/Bosnia etc?

Chris said:
I see is no reason why Saudi Arabia or any country for that matter, has to be a “Muslim” state or should be.
Saudi Arabia is a Muslim state, because Saudis wish it to be a Muslim state. Be that as it may, the differences between a Jewish Israel and a Muslim kingdom are legion....

You can visit Israel anytime you wish Chris, but you cannot visit the Kingdom. It is closed to all non-Muslims without the express permission of the Saudi government. You could indeed become a non-Jewish citizen of Israel Chris. You could never become a Saudi citizen... not even if you converted to Islam. Israel has free, open, and binding elections Chris. The Kingdom has no such quaint liberties. If you wished Chris, you could even marry a Jewish Israeli woman and live happily ever after. You could never marry a Muslim Saudi woman without a concomitant death sentence that would follow you to the ends of the Earth. The next time you have the urge to chastise Israel Chris, think a bit about the simple things in life.



 
Gandhi>Bush said:
It was always more of a geographical reference. People began claiming it as their nationality shortly after the partition and the creation of Israel.
Who started claiming it as a nationality ?
The Palestinians as a way to resist the annexation of Gaza, the West bank & East Jerusalem, or the Israelis as a convenient excuse to expel the Palestinians ?
As in... 'I'm a Palestinian don't expel me', or 'You're a Palestinian get out' !
Kind of highlights the essence of the total stupidity of being tribalistic doesn't it ?
 
Last edited:
This might sound silly, but I wish the Jews would move to America. They are a smart and talented group of people and have been historically. Has anyone ever heard one say to someone who saves their money that "they are a Jew". They would also be out of harms way of the extremist.

It would actually help our economy. I know this is totally unrealistic.
 
George_Washington said:
So wait a sec. You have to be of the Jewish religion to get citizenship in Israel? Suppose I went over there. As a Roman Catholic person of various European and Lebanese decent, what rights would I have?
No George, you do not have to be Jewish to gain Israeli citizenship. Israel has citizenship requirements (such as residency) just like every other nation. Israel has Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Falasha, and Druze citizens.

George_Washington said:
I know a lot of the Muslim countries have imposed Islamic laws in their state governments but that does that make it right? Are not democracy and freedom two of the most civilized and moral elements a society can posess?
If a people are happy and satisified with any form of government, then so be it. If they are not, then change will eventually transpire.

George_Washington said:
I'm also curious as to why, Tashah, you say that Jews don't want to live among arabs. It's just, you know, not all arabs are bad. There are people who would say I am part arab and I don't consider myself to be any kind of a threat to the Jews. In fact, I feel somewhat of a bond with the Jews because of my middle eastern heritage, because we're both from the same part of the world. But I know that many arabs in the Middle East don't feel the same way I do.
You are very right George, not all Arabs are bad. The problem is that most Arab governments are bad. Another problem is that most ME mosque imams regularly preach hatred of Jews. Conversely, I have never heard of any synagoue in the world where the Rabbi preached hatred of anyone. There are cultural reasons also George, such as Arab 'honor-killings'. These are the main reasons why Jews have an aversion to living in Arab lands. It's not a racial or ethnic aversion... its simply just a matter of survival. We do share a common Middle East bond George, and I would like to tell you a story so that you do not misunderstand either me, or Israel....

Living in my home in Tel'Aviv is a Muslim Iraqi woman named Amina. She is my age. Her Iraqi husband was accused by Saddam's Mukabarat of being an Israeli spy because he was found to be in possession of a Thuraya satellite phone which was outlawed in Iraq. He perished under torture. Amina herself spent time in Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison, and only gained her freedom becuse Iraqi guards deserted the prison when US Marines were less that ten kilometers away. Israeli agents in Baghdad brought Amina to Israel via Jordan for extensive surgical, dental, and psychological rehabilitation. All Israeli medical personel freely volunteered their time and expertise in this endeavor.

Amina indicated a desire to remain in Israel to pursue her dream... an advanced education. As a Hebrew/Arabic speaker, I offered my home to her. Today Amina is a student at Tel'Aviv University majoring in Computer Science. All of her educational expenses have been paid in full. She is under no obligation to remain in Israel. She can gain Israeli citizenship, or return to Iraq or go anywhere in the world she wishes. Although the ultimate choice will be hers, I strongly suspect that Amina will elect to become an Israeli citizen. {Postscript: Although Israeli intelligence was eventually aware of their terrible plight, neither Amina nor her husband at any time had any ties to Israeli intelligence. The satellite phone was used strictly for black market purchases and sales}

George_Washington said:
I will point out that you are, indeed, right Tashah that the Jews were denied immigration to European countries before WW2. I can see how you would want to be cautious. But still, if so many civilized and industrialized countries like America and England have adopted democracy, why can't Israel or any other country in the Middle East for that matter?
Israel is at present a 'quasi-democracy'. It has 'Guiding Principles' rather than a formal constitution. A formal constitution has been in the process of being formulated by a constitutional commitee for an eventual popular vote and national ratification.



 
Back
Top Bottom