Why does Israel have to be a "Jewish" state?

[easyt65]

But anyway, you have the Fox News concept of Jihad, you need to actually research and learn before you make comments like that.

You were doing really well....right up until THIS point. You are absolutely correct about the Greater and Lesser Jihad's; however, it is not fox News who has twisted the concept of the Lesser Jihad - it is the growing radical Islamic sect that has done so.

It means a struggle for Islam, not in the sense of "world domination" as you put it, but a struggle against someone who is opressing Islam...We learn in the Qur'an that Islam does not need to be preached or forced on ANYONE because it will spread itself naturally, as we have seen ...
-- It has very much become a growing movement for world domination, my misguided friend. Opressing Islam?! Who in the World Trade Center Towers was opressing Islam? who in the African Embassies Al Qaeda hit were doing so? How about the kids in Iraq who were standing in line for candy who were blown up by a suicide bomber, all in the name of Jihad?! Yes, the Quran DOES teach about peace, but those who are carrying the banner of Islam in 1 hand and a suiceide bomb or AK-47 in the other are not concerned with the true teachings of the Quran! ARE THEY? And I have seen their brand of 'Message' spread, too - to the Towers of the World Trade center, to the Kobar Towers in Saudi, to the deck of the USS Cole, to the rubble that once were 2 African Embassies, to the fields of genocide in Africa where Muslims slaughterd non-Muslims, to the constant suicide bombings in Israel against women and children as the Muslims claim they want Israel to be wiped from the face of the earth - not some type of opression you speak of to stop, to the streets of Baghdad where Muslims are targeting Muslim women and children with bombs to stop Muslim Democracy - not opression - from spreading....should I go on about the peaceful spreading of the Quran and Muslim/Islamic religeon?

If you have listened to any of the terrorists on TV, ever had a chance to meet any of the detainees that we have captured, you would find that anyone who does not believe in Muhammed, who does not embrace Islam, must convert or DIE! You/Us, non-Muslims, are INFADELS who MUST DIE! Not my words, my friend - one of the many Islamic Freedom Fighters who slaughter the innocent in the name of a God whose message is supposed to be love! France was all for Iraq, against the war, yet the Muslims radicals recently turned on France and other countries in Europe who were helping them. France welcomed the Muslim population with open arems, and they bit the hand that fed them (so to speak), rising up in France not long ago. Why? because they are still INFADELS!

Your denial of what is going on, blaming Fox for 'bastardizing' the Lesser jihad, and thus, the Quran is BS and is what many of us can't stand/tolerate any more! It is the 'Islamic leaders' like Bin laden, who are idolized, hidden, and protected by fellow Muslims, who have twisted the Quran to incite violence, brainwashing others to think the Lesser jihad is exactly what you and the Quran says it is NOT! Yet, where is the outrage from the Muslim community, from those like you who voice your disagreement with Bin Laden's 'teachings' in forums like this? Where is your voice to the world...and to Bin laden? Where is the outrage about the hijacking of your religeon, turning it into a private war against Non-muslims, primarily the US and the UK? Where are the 'TRUE' teachers and representatives of the Quran and the Islamic religeon, condemning Bin Laden and all those who claim that the Lesser jihad is about killing your fellow Muslims in Iraq who are trying to stand up their own democratic goverment, targeting police forces, goverment officials, women, and children! Muslims are killing Muslims in Iraq....all in the name of the Lesser Jihad and explained as 'ordered by the Quran and the teachings of Muhammed'!

1st there was Hussein, a dictator who tortured, raped, gassed, and used other WMD on his own fellow-muslim people! Now, it's the 'insurgents' turn to kill fellow Muslims! Fox News isn't killing Muslim women and children in Iraq....your fellow/brother "Quran-following" Islamic radicals are! The only ones opressing muslims in iraq are MUSLIMS/Islamic radicals!

 

[MSgt]

I will reply to your post only (for right now) because there are too many things wrong with it to let it be.

Hardly

As far as your opinion of Arab and Iranian dictators oppressing their people, I agree with you. Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Libya and Iran are all dictators. BUT, let me remind you Franco ruled Spain for almost 50 years, Mussalini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, Lenin-Stalin in Russia, several US-placed dictators in South America, Saddam Hussein helped by US in the Iran-Iraq War, Saudi Royal family supported by the US greatly, so how do you justify your argument based on that when dictatorships are no more middle eastern then democracy is French. Again, how do you consider Cechnya a dictatorship (or repressive regime) when they dont have a government and the Russian secret police and military have brtualized them so doesnt that make the Russian government repressive?

How many terrorist organizations and groups based on religion come from South America, Hitler's Germany, or Mussolini Italy? How many claim the right of God as their violent tool? Try to rationalize all you want....it won't make the facts go away.

Second of all, you need a little lesson in Islamic studies, because my brother, you are way, way off.

A lesson in Islamic studies? FOX News? :roll: Be careful.

What you are describing is true Islam. You are not describing Radical Islam, which was the subject. You have no need to defend Islam from me. Perhaps you are in need of a lesson....

A man named Sayyid Qutb was an Egyptian intellectual, author, and Islamist associated with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. He is best known for his theoretical work on redefining the role of Islamic fundamentalism in social and political change. He is known as the father of modern-day Radical Islam. His extensive Quranic commentary Fi zilal al-Qur'an has contributed significantly to modern perceptions of Islamic concepts such as jihad, jahiliyyah, and umma. He was accused of plotting to overthrow the state of Egypt and executed by hanging in 1966 by Egypt.

Qutb's brother, Muhammad Qutb, moved to Saudi Arabia where he became a professor of Islamic Studies. The influence of Qutb and his work extends across the whole spectrum of Islamism and is seen across the Middle East. One of Muhammad Qutb's students and an ardent follower was Ayman Zawahiri, who later became the mentor of Osama bin Laden. His teachings has indeed been deep rooted in Saudi Arabia and has been adopted by the "House of Saud," the true lords of terror, as a means to oppress and control their people. (I find their current efforts of running around the Saudi desert chasing down their own fundamentals as poetic justice.) America's guilt in this is that, as long as the oil flowed, we have traditionally looked the other way while they have used us as a scapegoat for everyone of their self-inflicted failures. (So much for pascifists and the global left preaching to us that we should mind our own business.) The hard truth is that as long as our inerests are tied to Saudi oil, we are sworn to protect these bazaars of terror and we deal with cynical old men who know how to soothe our diplomats. Oil smeared our vision and we concentrated on the self-destructive Arab states as "sovereign" nations despite its treatment of their people. The accusations leveled against us by terrified, embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunities, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders to remain in power. Their misdirected blame is on Israel and the U.S., but the "House of Saud" are to blame for all of the religious perversions that has run amok in the Middle East and are guilty of every murder inflicted by Islamist extremists. These crimes are not just simply the act of a cluster of terrorists, but a reflection of the failure of the entire Middle Eastern Islamist world. Sayyid Qutb is recognized for his application of Islamic ideology to current social and political problems, such as Westernization, modernization, and political reform. Qutb's work also expanded many themes now common in Western discourses on Islamism, including the theory of inevitable ideological conflict between "Islam and the West" - the notion of a transnational umma, and the comprehensive application of jihad in various spiritual, political, and social contexts. His teachings "enlighten" the futureless youth in the Middle East that terrorism is the only route left to them to effectively change political, social, and religious forms.

Samuel Huntington's "A Clash of Civilizations," suggests that a war between the West and Islam is inevitable; some would argue that the wars with Afghanistan and Iraq were the first battles of just such a war. Acceptance of this theory challenges the ability of mankind to alter the nature of conflict and achieve a long-lasting period of peace and prosperity. The U.S. is now at a crossroads; failure to effectively counter the catalyzing effects of Radical Islam will prove Huntington correct and lead decreased stability, decreased economic growth, and increased conflict. Conversely, effectively countering this threat now will have worldwide, beneficial effects for generations to come. It is time to prove Huntington wrong.

We cannot deal with this growing problem without antagonizing the radical element one way or the other, but we can choose to take the wiser tactic. Islam is at war with itself for an identity and the moderate majority aren't even lifting a finger. We must endure the lumps that are going to come from this cautiously. Just because our media is focused on what will sell their papers - Iraq - it doesn't mean that nothing else is being done. On the contrary, much is. Iraq gave us an unprecedented opportunity. Never before in the Arab world have a country's citizens been permitted to vote on the laws that would govern them. Even if Iraq must endure further blood shed, this is a historic moment in the Middle East. One that will prove to be a turning point for the Arab and Persian future and one that will be a historical era for our future security. Iraq and Afghanistan must be seen as a success to the Muslim world. The problems with the Israeli/Palistinian conflict is that the radical element among Palestinians are determined to murder and destroy no matter what we do and the Iranian government has encouraged it. Much like the Palistinians, the Radical element amongst Arabs are determined to hate us and their "martyrs" are determined to achieve "Allah's" will on earth. We must give direct and indirect support wherever we can to change this ideology and perception that we are at war with Islam. It is far easier for Muslim governments and populations to rid themselves of this Radical element if the terrorists continue to be on the losing side in all corners. After all, the only thing that can ultimately fix the Muslim world is Mulsims. We are seeing this. Islam is in conflict for an identity and we must do all that we can to ensure that they ultimately wind up on the right path, just like every major religion in history has had to do. Attacking Saudi Arabia would be counter productive to this effort.

I doubt you'll hear any of this on FOX news.

Lastly, Your comment about Israel being West and Democratic doesnt nessesarilly make it right. Western ideas are not all correct and democracy, like all other governments is not perfect and has a lot of flaws, like corruption and missuse (as we are seeing in America more and more these days). Self defense in Israel terms means systematic slaughter, and yes, GENOCIDE of innocents in retaliation of terrorist attacks that have nothing to do with the overall population (look at my previous post for specifics, to find a source look anywhere you like it not an unknown issue), as far as issolated, yeah sure i guess that makes the deaths of 500 ok, just because there werent two of the same events within a week of eachother, 500 deaths is nothing, and another 500 later on, and another 50, then another 100 or so, ok thats fine just so long as they arnt together, great rationalizing on human life, I call that pretty fanatic myself.

Doesn't make it right? As opposed by the Arab nations surrounding it? It's simple. This is survival. Israel defends itself and wouldn't have to if the Palestinians, fueled by Iranian and Saudi Arab cheers, would just roll up their sleeves and take responsibility for their own civilization's failures.

And while im at it, Gardener, with your last comment, your making a huge assumtion, infact quite the opposite. Im a college student at Georgetown majoring in Poly Sci (emphisis on American Foreign Policy) and American History (emphsis on Military History) and Im running on pretty much scholorships and student loans (a crap load I might add) and I come from a fairly low middleclass family in Michigan. Now you know more about me so you can make better assumptions next time.

It's great that you are learning about what I've been doing for 14 years.

 

[easyt65]

Back to/More on Israel Situation,

DID YOU KNOW:

- Today the Palestenians meet to elect members to the equivalent of a Parliment?

- HAMAS will be taking part in that election. Israel has been against this but agreed, under pressure from the US, not to oppose it.

- HAMAS has been known as a terrorist organization and is currently considered, at best, a terrorist-supporting organization.

- HAMAS is funded/supported greatly by Iran.

- HAMAS has been 'rivals' with Yasser Arafat and the PLO; however, HAMAS has been more popular and is being supported more by the Palestenians because they are responsible for building hospitals, schools, bridges, and more infrastructure to help improve the palestenian way of life.

The growing desire of palestenians is not to war against Israel but to return to life and living, populating the gaza Strip, building an economy, and thriving as a nation.
- 76% of both Palestenians and Israelis, as shown in the most recent poll there, favor a 2-state approach to normalizing relations and ending the war between the 2. 80% of Palestenians polled say they want no more war/violence with Israel and want to get on to building their own nation.

HAMAS has agreed to join the elections, agreeing to represent the people in this way (in far of losing the Palestenian support, most probably). For this reason, Israel has agreed not to oppose their running for parliment positions.

In a final note, a Senior HAMAS leader, giving an interview at the time of these polls, stated that they - HAMAS - is still for the total destruction of Israel, but they will agree to put that on hold, as the Palestenian people have 'called for' in these polls, for 100 years. Isn't that sweet?! (What was that again about a Lesser jihad being only for Defense? When a people offer an olive branch and you say you are still for their TOTAL destruction, I don't call that defense.)

 

[Gardener]

And while im at it, Gardener, with your last comment, your making a huge assumtion, infact quite the opposite. Im a college student at Georgetown majoring in Poly Sci (emphisis on American Foreign Policy) and American History (emphsis on Military History) and Im running on pretty much scholorships and student loans (a crap load I might add) and I come from a fairly low middleclass family in Michigan. Now you know more about me so you can make better assumptions next time.

I have made no assumptions at all, since I was commenting on your own assumption, namely that people needed to be "reminded" of something that exists only within your own head, namely this imagined "genocide" of Palestinians.

Had I wished to make assumptions, I might have just assumed you are planning on attending the hate fest scheduled for your campus between february 17 and 19, or that you plan on shouting "Kill The Jews" along with others at these terrorst supportinmg PSM events. I might have assumed that you pal around with Fadi Kiblawi or have taken classes from John Esposito, Hisham Shirabi or Halim Barakat. These would be assumptions, however, as I do not know any of these things.

What I do know is that Georgetown University has whored itself out to big time Saudi money -- an event that is no coincidence considering the virulence of the hatred expressed agaist Jews and Israel among its faculty and student body -- and that indoctrination takes precedence over intellectual honesty there. The mere fact that you would make ridiculous claims that a genocide is being perpetrated against Palestinians indicates much, and while I do not know with certainty whether these notions are self-originating or coming from the indoctrination, this sort of language is indicative of such an extreme bias as to render the bulk of what you say meaningless. I do not know whether you are practicing al takeyya here or are merely deluded, but such fantastic claims do little to further your credibility.

 

[PhatSlammer]

Wow my friend I am quite supprised by your anger outbust in that last post.

First of all, let me say that Georgetown is one of the best schools in the nation, known for the output of political figures in Washington, including John Kennedy and many other political figures. Any way, as far as participating in Jew "hating" events as you put it, I would never do any such thing. If I said I hated Jews I couldnt dare call myself a Muslim, in fact it says in the Qur'an that I (as a Muslim) must love the "People of the Book" ie. Jews, Christians and Muslims. Would I participate in anti-zionist or anti-Israel protests, yes definatly. Portesting Israel is no different then Protesting the US or anyother nation. Protesting the US doesnt mean your protesting Christianity does it? Or Protesting India means protesting Hinduism correct? Then why does protesting Israel mean protesting Judaism? Most pious and orthodox Jews detest Israel, as it violates Jewish law in many of their practices, but I am not a scholar on Jewish Law so I wont try to get into it. I am out of time, but I could on much longer.

Salaam.

 

[easyt65]

Any way, as far as participating in Jew "hating" events as you put it, I would never do any such thing. If I said I hated Jews I couldnt dare call myself a Muslim, in fact it says in the Qur'an that I (as a Muslim) must love the "People of the Book" ie. Jews, Christians and Muslims. Salaam.

Then either YOU or Bin Laden and much of the Middle east are not Muslim!

Many of the 'Muslims' in the middle east are for the 'total destruction' of Israel - rad my post about HAMAS. how about the post earlier about your 'opression' BS. Many Muslims abroad are calling for genocide of the Jews, much like Hitler did. What about the genocide that has gone on in Africa by the hands of self-professed muslims who claim to read and follow the same Quran YOU do? Should I bring up Bosnia, or other locations around the world where Muslims are committing attrocities of hatred and genocide? bin laden claims the U.S. is the great satan, but what he and his fellow 'muslims' are carrying out is infinitely worse, all in the name of the Quran and Muhammed!

I am glad you say YOU would never participate in 'Jew Hating' or the genocide that is being carried out by card-carrying, self-professed Quran-following Muslims around the world! However, I don't totally believe it - the self-professed outrage by any self-professed muslim because the only time I hear it is in forums like this. No world muslim leader has come out to condemn Osama bin Laden, Al Zarqawi, or any of the Islamic fanatics who claim to be Muslims who believe in peace and are beheading men and women on TV only as an act of, asd you said earlier, defense. THAT is BS!

As far as colleges go, I am not impressed with anyof them. I know you have heard the story about the student from Jordan (I believe) sitting in the library when he overhears several middle eastern Muslim students, on scholarship w/visas, talking in their native tongue - right after 9-11. They were loudly saying how they were glad Bin laden perpetrated the crimes, how he was glad to see America brought to its Knees, and all those Americans die horribly, hoping more was to come. here these pathetic MUSLIM punks were enjoying the deucational benefits and all this country was providing them while celebrating 9-11. The Jordanian student got up and rebuked them in arabic, then he went to tell the Dean what he had heard. The result was that the school suspended the Jordanian student, instead of revoking the Visas of these probably 1-day Al Qaeda pieces of garbage. They said the Jordanian had eavesdropped and violated their rights, offending THEM. Then there are the left wing liberal nuts who hide in college and teach our kids all kind of stupid moronic propoganda! Telling me you are a student from a proud university doesn't carry much weight with me, no matter which school you are from. Especially when you spread BS around about how all Muslims are taught peace and love and don'e hate anyone, especially Jews....oh yeah, that was just YOU. never mind!

 

[Gardener]

Wow my friend I am quite supprised by your anger outbust in that last post.

First of all, let me say that Georgetown is one of the best schools in the nation, known for the output of political figures in Washington, including John Kennedy and many other political figures. Any way, as far as participating in Jew "hating" events as you put it, I would never do any such thing. If I said I hated Jews I couldnt dare call myself a Muslim, in fact it says in the Qur'an that I (as a Muslim) must love the "People of the Book" ie. Jews, Christians and Muslims. Would I participate in anti-zionist or anti-Israel protests, yes definatly. Portesting Israel is no different then Protesting the US or anyother nation. Protesting the US doesnt mean your protesting Christianity does it? Or Protesting India means protesting Hinduism correct? Then why does protesting Israel mean protesting Judaism? Most pious and orthodox Jews detest Israel, as it violates Jewish law in many of their practices, but I am not a scholar on Jewish Law so I wont try to get into it. I am out of time, but I could on much longer.

Salaam.

Nice try with that "anger" comment. This is a fairly transparant ruse, however, for it is little but an attempt to portray my own reaction as emotional and obfuscate the fact that you were the one indulging in the hyped up emotional rhetorec through your use of the term "genocide".

As far as you statement about non participation, does this mean you are not planning on attending the upcoming event?

I am well aware what the Q'ran says about the people of the book, though. In Sura 9:29, for instance, even Jusef Ali's translation leaves little doubt as to the level of regard Islam shows these people of the book, and having read Aqa Mahdi Puya's explanation, there is little doubt as to the origin of the notion of Dhimmitude. Yes, by all means show you benevolence through the codification of a system that regards others as lesser beings. That you would trumpet this patently arrogant and chauvenistic system for degrading others as something positive says much about your world view.

 

[MSgt]

Wow my friend I am quite supprised by your anger outbust in that last post.

First of all, let me say that Georgetown is one of the best schools in the nation, known for the output of political figures in Washington, including John Kennedy and many other political figures. Any way, as far as participating in Jew "hating" events as you put it, I would never do any such thing. If I said I hated Jews I couldnt dare call myself a Muslim, in fact it says in the Qur'an that I (as a Muslim) must love the "People of the Book" ie. Jews, Christians and Muslims. Would I participate in anti-zionist or anti-Israel protests, yes definatly. Portesting Israel is no different then Protesting the US or anyother nation. Protesting the US doesnt mean your protesting Christianity does it? Or Protesting India means protesting Hinduism correct? Then why does protesting Israel mean protesting Judaism? Most pious and orthodox Jews detest Israel, as it violates Jewish law in many of their practices, but I am not a scholar on Jewish Law so I wont try to get into it. I am out of time, but I could on much longer.

Salaam.

Now we get to the heart of it. Not only are you Muslim, but your are a college kid practicing the age old trend and fad of protesting in College. Why is it that Muslims always feel the need to defend their religion as if it is under attack? What you are defending is "true Islam." What is being discussed is Radical Islam. There is a difference, though the lines are blurred to so many Muslims in the Middle East. The Radical Palestinian element is just as guilty as a Muslim terrorist in any other country. What is sad about today's issues is that the reality is that Islam is waging a war within itself for an identity and the moderate Muslims aren't lifting a finger to defend it. Instead they mistakenly rush to the rescue to "justify" the Radical element. The only group of people that are turning our current actions into something religious are Muslims. It is not the other way around.

Islam certainly is not hateful in its essence—but a disproportionate number of its current adherents need to hate to avoid the agony of self-knowledge. Religious intolerance always returns in times of doubt and disorder. Fundamentalist terrorism has not arisen despite the progress the world has made, but because of it. This is the problem we are facing in the Middle East. This disease has infected the Palistinians and has ruined any credibility they would have had. This isn't about defending "Jews." It's about recognizing that Israel is a peaceful nation and a virtual utopia in the middle of this mess. Going backwards is not the answer to this problem. The answer is for the rest of the Middle East to let go of passed down traditions that do not work in the 21st century and roll up their sleeves.

 

[MSgt]

I feel that this site doesn't have enough Muslim representation. The last one I know of was "surrenderer." He was here for some time and then stopped coming. While talking with him, we concluded that one of the problems is that Muslim people tend to feel that they must defend their religion. The reason this occurs is that they feel that they are being attacked when Radical Islam is the focus. I wrote this on another thread a few minutes ago. It seems fitting here too......

Our focus on the Middle East over the decades has been so exclusive that the majority has come to see Islam as defined by the Arab. But the Islam of the Middle East is as fixed, as unreflective, and ultimately as brittle as concrete. People don’t realize that Islam is the youngest of the world’s great religions, that it is still very much a work-in-progress. Islam is a vivid, dynamic, and vibrant religion of changing shape and potential and its forms are at least as various as the countless confessions and sects of Christendom.

Throughout history, from the days of Jewish rebels against Rome and Islam’s early and recurrent fractures, through 16th-century Spanish Catholicism alarmed at the advent of alternate paths to salvation, to 19th-century Protestantism startled by Charles Darwin, religions under siege invariably have responded by returning to doctrinal rigor and insisting upon the damnation of nonbelievers. Each major religion has known its share of threats to its philosophical and practical integrity. Our age happens to be a losing era for Islam, when its functionality as a mundane organizing tool has decayed in much of the world—just as European Christianity had done by the beginning of the 16th century.

The ease with which today’s Americans of diverse faiths interact in social settings has allowed us to forget that our ancestors, in their homelands, massacred one another over the contents of the communion cup, or slaughtered Jews and called it God’s desire, or delivered their faith to their colonies with Bibles and breech-loading rifles. Some even brought their hatreds to our shores, but America conquered their bigotries over the generations—although even we have not vanquished intolerance completely. Still, for most contemporary Americans, religion has become as comfortable as it remains comforting. But human history is largely a violent contest of gods and the men who served them, and our age is the latest, intense serial in a saga that shaped our earliest myths.

Religions change, because men change them. Fundamentalists insist upon an historical stasis, but evolution in the architecture of faith has always been essential to, and reflective of, human progress. Certainty is comforting, but a religion’s capacity for adaptive behavior unleashes the energies necessary to renew both the faith and the society in which it flourishes. In the Middle East, where the narcotic of choice is blame, they have stagnated and have resisted the need to progress. On its frontiers, Islam remains capable of the changes necessary to make it, once again, a healthy, luminous faith whose followers can compete globally on its own terms. But the hard men from that religion’s ancient homelands are determined to frustrate every exploratory effort they can. The Muslim extremist from the Middle East has one consistent message: Return to the past, for that is what God wants. Beware, no matter his faith, of the man who presumes to tell you what God wants. It cannot be accomplished, of course, this longed-for return to a golden age of sanctity and success, that is mostly myth, is gone. But the bloody-handed terrorists and their mentors are determined to pay any price to frustrate those Muslims who believe that God is capable of smiling, or that it is possible to change the earth without challenging Heaven.

Why do you (PhatSlammer) choose to defend these monsters as they do everything possible to turn your religion into a blood cult as they use the Palestinian/Israeli conflict to do it?