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Why do so many liberals consider materialistic possessions a human right?

Mensch

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How can any rational human being come to think that FDR had a great idea when he proposed his second bill of rights? How is housing a universal right? How is healthcare a universal right? Why do people continue to believe that scarce resources, and the labor of others, is a right guaranteed to them by some higher power?

The first rule of economics is scarcity. There is never enough resources to satisfy the needs and wants of all people. The first rule of politics is to disregard the first rule of economics.
 

Johnny

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The Second Bill of Rights is one of those ideas that sounds great in theory but will be a disaster in practice. People that support it do so because they're sucked in by the nice sound of it and aren't looking at the big picture of inflation, unemployment, taxation, regulation, big government that would come out of such a plan.
 

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I think FDR's freedom speech wasn't advocating that the government should provide all those freedoms, for example freedom from want and freedom from fear are so intangible it would be impossible for any organization or government to totally remove them from the world. I think it was rather meant to be inspirational and perhaps through that inspirational provide a hope for the future which may reduce want and fear but at the very least make people feel better about the future.
 

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How can any rational human being come to think that FDR had a great idea when he proposed his second bill of rights? How is housing a universal right? How is healthcare a universal right? Why do people continue to believe that scarce resources, and the labor of others, is a right guaranteed to them by some higher power?

The first rule of economics is scarcity. There is never enough resources to satisfy the needs and wants of all people. The first rule of politics is to disregard the first rule of economics.
I think that housing is a universal right because I need a place to store all my guns, and health care is a universal right because I'll need medicine to keep me alive longer so I can shoot more living creatures for fun.
 

spud_meister

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what makes you think many liberals think they're human rights?
 

Boo Radley

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It seems we're starting with an unproven or even support premise.
 

Mensch

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I think that housing is a universal right because I need a place to store all my guns, and health care is a universal right because I'll need medicine to keep me alive longer so I can shoot more living creatures for fun.
Thanks for the political sneer. What a subtle way to sling mud! Now, what do you REALLY think?
 

Mensch

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what makes you think many liberals think they're human rights?
I thought you would be happy to call FDR the father of the "wonderful" second bill of rights; these "rights" mimic several of the articles from the Universal Declaration on HUMAN RIGHTS.
 

Mensch

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It seems we're starting with an unproven or even support premise.
And why is that? I was using referring to the contemporary American ideology of liberalism. So, unless you're a liberal in the 18th century European sense of the word, you shouldn't make such ridiculous statements. To claim that liberal democrats don't believe in these set of "rights," then I implore you to look around at your fellow American liberals.
 

Mensch

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I think FDR's freedom speech wasn't advocating that the government should provide all those freedoms, for example freedom from want and freedom from fear are so intangible it would be impossible for any organization or government to totally remove them from the world. I think it was rather meant to be inspirational and perhaps through that inspirational provide a hope for the future which may reduce want and fear but at the very least make people feel better about the future.
I never heard anyone argue for a freedom of want. I didn't even know today (I'll take your word for it) that FDR said we had a freedom from fear. That is just ridiculous. These materialistic possessions are very tangible, which makes it easier for the government to claim we all deserve them. In my opinion, we have the right and freedom to pursue these possessions, but not actually the possession of them. It ALWAYS implies that a big centralized institution should distribute these possessions at the cost of other's success.
 

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I thought you would be happy to call FDR the father of the "wonderful" second bill of rights; these "rights" mimic several of the articles from the Universal Declaration on HUMAN RIGHTS.
See now if you knew what you were talking about you'd realize the UDHR was written not only after FDR's speech but also after his death... so... I think accusing him of mimicing the UDHR is a rediculous.
 

Harshaw

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what makes you think many liberals think they're human rights?
It seems we're starting with an unproven or even support premise.

Housing:

Housing is a Human Right

Right to housing

Housing as a Human Right (Gotham Gazette, Nov 2007)

PDHRE: Housing

'Housing Is a Human Right' Documents Struggle For Home

NESRI: National Economic & Social Rights Initiative

Housing as a human right

Bill Quigley: Housing as a Human Right

Housing Is a Human Right | End Homelessness | Change.org

NLCHP.org

Housing is a human right!

Housing is a Human Right: Stories from the Struggle for Home | GFEM - Media Database

Special Rapporteur on adequate housing as a component of the right to an adequate standard of living, and on the right to non-discrimination in this context

HIC - Respect housing as a human right warns Ontario Municipal Board as it strikes down restrictive Kitchener planning rules

Ontario Human Rights Commission

Housing is a Human Right | Facebook

Adequate Housing is a Basic Human Right That Takes a Back Seat to Corporate Profits | BuzzFlash.org


Health Care:


Health Care as a Human Right

Health Care is a Human Right

Healthcare Is a Human Right Campaign | Vermont Workers' Center

Healthcare is a Human Right

Health Care as a Human Right - Campus Progress

Health care as a human right | PRI.ORG

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/12/health-care-is-a-human-right/

Helen Redmond: Health Care as a Human Right

Health Care as Human Rights

Health care as a human right » peoplesworld

Health Care is a Human Right - Valerie Elverton Dixon - God's Politics Blog

Healthcare is a Human Right NM


I mean, come on. Those are just the links I copied before I got bored with it. Hundreds, hundreds more.
 
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Djoop

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To acquire possessions through ones own labour is a fundamental right, every liberal ought to support that. Unfortunately, not every liberal does. This principal right that was forwarded by a certain John locke if I'm not mistaken is only valued by libertarians these days. It's quite odd because most people do not support fascism, communism or any other totalitarian ideology that believes that the fruit of ones labour belongs to the state.
 

LaMidRighter

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Housing:

Housing is a Human Right

Right to housing

Housing as a Human Right (Gotham Gazette, Nov 2007)

PDHRE: Housing

'Housing Is a Human Right' Documents Struggle For Home

NESRI: National Economic & Social Rights Initiative

Housing as a human right

Bill Quigley: Housing as a Human Right

Housing Is a Human Right | End Homelessness | Change.org

NLCHP.org

Housing is a human right!

Housing is a Human Right: Stories from the Struggle for Home | GFEM - Media Database

Special Rapporteur on adequate housing as a component of the right to an adequate standard of living, and on the right to non-discrimination in this context

HIC - Respect housing as a human right warns Ontario Municipal Board as it strikes down restrictive Kitchener planning rules

Ontario Human Rights Commission

Housing is a Human Right | Facebook

Adequate Housing is a Basic Human Right That Takes a Back Seat to Corporate Profits | BuzzFlash.org


Health Care:


Health Care as a Human Right

Health Care is a Human Right

Healthcare Is a Human Right Campaign | Vermont Workers' Center

Healthcare is a Human Right

Health Care as a Human Right - Campus Progress

Health care as a human right | PRI.ORG

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/12/health-care-is-a-human-right/

Helen Redmond: Health Care as a Human Right

Health Care as Human Rights

Health care as a human right » peoplesworld

Health Care is a Human Right - Valerie Elverton Dixon - God's Politics Blog

Healthcare is a Human Right NM


I mean, come on. Those are just the links I copied before I got bored with it. Hundreds, hundreds more.
Just wait for him to start twisting out of it. The entertainment value alone from his dismissals will be epic.
 

Mensch

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See now if you knew what you were talking about you'd realize the UDHR was written not only after FDR's speech but also after his death... so... I think accusing him of mimicing the UDHR is a rediculous.
I NEVER claimed or argued that FDR was mimicking the United Nations. I said that the second bill of rights mimick several of the articles in he UDHR (I only phrased one before the other because of two reasons...1) we're talking about the second bill of rights, and a liberal poster asked me why I was making such a grand assumption of liberals supporting the above mentioned materialistic possessions as human rights. 2) FDR's Second Bill of Rights never passed. The UDHR has passed, and therefore it is more legitimate

Besides, you're arguing a superficial technicality. FDR made his famous State of the Union address in 1941, outlining several of the UDHR articles almost identically. It's not that big of a stretch to assume the UDHR were originally his idea, or at least his speech fueled its passage. Elenor is the one holding up the Spanish version in the famous picture for crying out loud.
 

prrriiide

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You pose an interesting philosophical exercise. At the heart of your question is: how can people possibly believe that certain concepts could be considered rights?

But if you think about it, the freedoms enumerated in the US and English Bills of Rights weren't always considered rights. If they had been, there would be no need to codify them. At some point, they became rights in the minds of those that desired them. Freedom of Speech in England wasn't codified until 1689; 100 years before the US Bill of Rights. Was that when freedom of speech became a right? Or is that when a critical mass of the populace decided to claim an existing but unrecognized right?

Think about the deeper meaning of the phrase in the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
The DoI implies that certain rights exist as a natural consequence of human nature and culture (or Creator, if that is the part of human culture you wish to credit). The meaning is clear: whether the powers that be agree or not, men have certain freedoms. If the PTB do not agree, it is the responsibility of the governed to establish a government that does recognize those rights. The rights recognized will be established by those that institute the government - the ones that want the rights to be recognized. Or, We The People.

So...if a critical mass of the population in America decides that housing and health care are basic rights, then they are. Just as the English people rose up and claimed their right to free speech 331 years ago, Americans at some point in the future may rise up to claim what they see to be their right to affordable adequate medical care.

Also, be careful when you talk about material possessions as rights that you aren't confusing them with the concepts that those possessions represent. Take housing, for example. The right to housing isn't necessarily a right to possess a house or own a building. It means much more than that. It symbolizes a right to safety, security, roots, heritage, a sense of self and of self-worth. Taken as an aggregate, a sense of community and of belonging. Not really materialistic, wouldn't you say?
 
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Djoop

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Yeah lets redo or even invent or own version of history. Its apparant (to me) that some seem to have a problem understanding the concept of human rights. “Housing” and “healthcare” are no human rights of course. If you disagree, by all means try to reason why they should be considered human rights, I have yet to see one remotely valid reason. The fact that it makes sense to promote housing and healthcare among the citizens of a country do not make it a human right. Human rights are universal, they’re always and everywhere and can be applied to every human being.

The basics every american should know:

Locke's political theory was founded on social contract theory. Unlike Thomas Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature is characterized by reason and tolerance. Like Hobbes, Locke believed that human nature allowed men to be selfish. This is apparent with the introduction of currency. In a natural state all people were equal and independent, and everyone had a natural right to defend his “Life, health, Liberty, or Possessions", basis for the phrase in America; “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”.

Like Hobbes, Locke assumed that the sole right to defend in the state of nature was not enough, so people established a civbil society to resolve conflicts in a civil way with help from government in a state of society. However, Locke never refers to Hobbes by name and may instead have been responding to other writers of the day. Locke also advocated governmental separation of powers and believed that revolution is not only a right but an obligation in some circumstances. These ideas would come to have profound influence on the Constitution of the United States and its Declaration of Independance.


John Locke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now we established that housing and healthcare are no human rights and that “materialistic possessions” are, we should put a value on housing and healthcare. Margaret Thatcher famously said: We Are Building a Property-Owning Democracy. From that viewpoint it makes sense to make sure people have acces to housing and healthcare and that societies have a natural interest maintaining these basic needs. People will not work harder to pay their healthcare debts, especially when they exceed their wages. They will not be productive without shelter. We are selfish by nature.

Housing and healthcare are basic needs, however they are NO human rights.
 

Harshaw

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The DoI implies that certain rights exist as a natural consequence of human nature and culture (or Creator, if that is the part of human culture you wish to credit).
No, it actually means "Creator." Not human nature, not human culture.


The meaning is clear: whether the powers that be agree or not, men have certain freedoms. If the PTB do not agree, it is the responsibility of the governed to establish a government that does recognize those rights. The rights recognized will be established by those that institute the government - the ones that want the rights to be recognized. Or, We The People.
A "freedom" is something you do, or something the government can't molest. It's not something which is provided to you.


So...if a critical mass of the population in America decides that housing and health care are basic rights, then they are. Just as the English people rose up and claimed their right to free speech 331 years ago, Americans at some point in the future may rise up to claim what they see to be their right to affordable adequate medical care.
The meaning IS clear -- it refers to the right to choose your own path freely and pursue happiness as you see fit. There is nothing about having anything provided to you.

Also, be careful when you talk about material possessions as rights that you aren't confusing them with the concepts that those possessions represent. Take housing, for example. The right to housing isn't necessarily a right to possess a house or own a building. It means much more than that. It symbolizes a right to safety, security, roots, heritage, a sense of self and of self-worth. Taken as an aggregate, a sense of community and of belonging. Not really materialistic, wouldn't you say?
No, it pretty much refers to a right to a physical structure. This flowery bull**** seems all very well, but you pulled it out of thin air.

And you've also upped the ante considerably, as now you're putting the onus on the government to provide everyone not only with a place to live, but with some esoteric sense of cultural identity. :roll:
 

Boo Radley

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Housing:

Housing is a Human Right

Right to housing

Housing as a Human Right (Gotham Gazette, Nov 2007)

PDHRE: Housing

'Housing Is a Human Right' Documents Struggle For Home

NESRI: National Economic & Social Rights Initiative

Housing as a human right

Bill Quigley: Housing as a Human Right

Housing Is a Human Right | End Homelessness | Change.org

NLCHP.org

Housing is a human right!

Housing is a Human Right: Stories from the Struggle for Home | GFEM - Media Database

Special Rapporteur on adequate housing as a component of the right to an adequate standard of living, and on the right to non-discrimination in this context

HIC - Respect housing as a human right warns Ontario Municipal Board as it strikes down restrictive Kitchener planning rules

Ontario Human Rights Commission

Housing is a Human Right | Facebook

Adequate Housing is a Basic Human Right That Takes a Back Seat to Corporate Profits | BuzzFlash.org


Health Care:


Health Care as a Human Right

Health Care is a Human Right

Healthcare Is a Human Right Campaign | Vermont Workers' Center

Healthcare is a Human Right

Health Care as a Human Right - Campus Progress

Health care as a human right | PRI.ORG

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/12/health-care-is-a-human-right/

Helen Redmond: Health Care as a Human Right

Health Care as Human Rights

Health care as a human right » peoplesworld

Health Care is a Human Right - Valerie Elverton Dixon - God's Politics Blog

Healthcare is a Human Right NM


I mean, come on. Those are just the links I copied before I got bored with it. Hundreds, hundreds more.
Interesting. I didn't click on all of them, but most i did click on were from the UN. How many of them are here arguing? How many here argue all these things are rights? That material things are a right? The thing is with the internet,you can always find someone saying anything. Care to see how many hits the internet might have that republicans are Nazis?

About 1,380,000 results (0.17 seconds)

Can I start a thread as to why all republicans are nazis? I would hope not.

Or how about why do republicans want to kill granny?

About 16,500 results (0.15 seconds)

Why do republicans hate teeachers?

About 174,000 results (0.23 seconds)

Why do republicans hate children?

About 14,800,000 results (0.20 seconds)

Why do republicans puppies?

About 316,000 results (0.22 seconds)


The point is, nothing you link actually polls liberals at all, let alone the views of anyone who might debate here. I don't see a real issue in this and think it is more a sterotype than anything else. Yes, people want to help the homeless. People want to tackle healthcare and see more people with minimal care. And yes, people would like to help more people suffer less. But that's a far cry from arguing that a diverse group all see material things as a right.
 

Harshaw

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Interesting. I didn't click on all of them, but most i did click on were from the UN.
Anyone who wants to click on the links will come to the conclusion that you clicked on, like, three links if that's all you saw.


The point is, nothing you link actually polls liberals at all, let alone the views of anyone who might debate here. I don't see a real issue in this and think it is more a sterotype than anything else. Yes, people want to help the homeless. People want to tackle healthcare and see more people with minimal care. And yes, people would like to help more people suffer less. But that's a far cry from arguing that a diverse group all see material things as a right.
No, you're right. No one at any of those organizations calling these things "human rights" could possibly be liberals.

You are are arguing just to argue. But it IS entertaining.

And I couldn't possibly care less what you want to say about Republicans. I really couldn't.
 
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VanceMack

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what makes you think many liberals think they're human rights?
I think there have been quite enough polls about 'human rights' already and the positions of many of those on the left or there on display.
 

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I think FDR's freedom speech wasn't advocating that the government should provide all those freedoms, for example freedom from want and freedom from fear are so intangible it would be impossible for any organization or government to totally remove them from the world. I think it was rather meant to be inspirational and perhaps through that inspirational provide a hope for the future which may reduce want and fear but at the very least make people feel better about the future.
Now-a-days, if you have the right to something, the argument from the left is that the government must then provide it to you, thru means forcibly acquired from others, should you not have the means to provide it for yourself.

Except for guns, of course.
 

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Anyone who wants to click on the links will come to the conclusion that you clicked on, like, three links if that's all you saw.




No, you're right. No one at any of those organizations calling these things "human rights" could possibly be liberals.

You are are arguing just to argue. But it IS entertaining.

And I couldn't possibly care less what you want to say about Republicans. I really couldn't.
Well, there is an entertainment element for all of this, but I never said "no" liberals ever believe anything just as it can't be said thet "no" conservative is a racist. The point is that the number has to be high enough to matter. This requires a poll of some sort, doesn't it? Don't we need to know how many? That would be answering it, and not an internet list, which I think I showed can be found on any silliness.
 

Harshaw

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Well, there is an entertainment element for all of this, but I never said "no" liberals ever believe anything just as it can't be said thet "no" conservative is a racist. The point is that the number has to be high enough to matter. This requires a poll of some sort, doesn't it? Don't we need to know how many? That would be answering it, and not an internet list, which I think I showed can be found on any silliness.
LaMidRighter was right -- squirmy squirmy McSquirm-Squirm. :lol:

These links are quite enough to support the premise of the question of why "so many liberals" consider these things human rights. It isn't why "all" liberals do so, or even why "the majority" do so, only "so many." I identified "many" who do.
 
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