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Why do so many liberals consider materialistic possessions a human right?

1) You failed at college on your first try? That is the problem with the educational thinking in this country. I specifically mentioned certification. There are more avenues to generate wealth than getting a B.A. at some four-year institution. You can start making 22K a year almost immediately, just take three courses and receive a certification in preschool development. Spend a little bit more, go to school for six months, and get a certification in medical coding and billing. You could start making 40K starting easy. From there, you'll be able to afford perhaps a higher education if you so wished to do so. The point is that the world is not dependent on a society full of "educated" sociology majors. Obviously, the devalued education hasn't been doing a lot for the innovation in this country. I would like to see things change. The majority of 18 year olds in this country can not undertake genuine, college-bound material. People hate it when you say that, but fifty years ago it was taken for granted. It is better to be trained as a mechanic or some other skill without proper education than it is to be a loser with a B.A. in sociology. Have you ever taken a sociology/gender studies/race studies/etc. class? It is simply the easiest class on earth. These degrees, IMHO, were created to expedite the graduation rates of young students who were having difficulty in the math and science fields. That is part of the devaluation process. In addition, the state schools still see 50% of students fail and leave the school with only debt.

I have other professional education that does not involve a bachelors and was gotten before my bachelors. In fast, much of the welfare you mentioned was involved in me getting those earlier degrees. Still the point remains. Not sure why its so hard for you to see this simple point.

2) Yes, and the artificial spike in supply created by government subsidies ends up driving up the price of the commodity, and the taxpayer is there to pay the bill. So we end up with a devalued educational system where the price goes up, quality goes down, and the ones footing the bill had nothing to do with the investment.

Quality going down is not a related factor and has to do with different problems in our society. As far as those footing the bill, I believe that the increased sophistication and wealth in our society that wouldn't be there otherwise is worth the bill.

But more importantly, my point was that it would be worse to be a college dropout with x amount of student debt and no degree rather than a young man who has no college debt and has no degree. Both could very well be impoverished if they don't decide to restart their ambitious pursuits. But it's more difficult if you're consumed in debt.

Yes, and that point has nothing to do with welfare.
 
I have other professional education that does not involve a bachelors and was gotten before my bachelors. In fast, much of the welfare you mentioned was involved in me getting those earlier degrees. Still the point remains. Not sure why its so hard for you to see this simple point.



Quality going down is not a related factor and has to do with different problems in our society. As far as those footing the bill, I believe that the increased sophistication and wealth in our society that wouldn't be there otherwise is worth the bill.



Yes, and that point has nothing to do with welfare.

Ok, I'm getting confused. Did you actually argue that welfare caused you to secure a lucrative job? I thought you were talking about the Pell Grant which I assumed you used to get a degree and then secure the position. But you're actually talking about welfare. Please tell me how you did it!

And what is your simple point? That devaluing education is worth it to be able to say the majority have degrees? If the degrees mean little to the actual innovation of this country, then what is the point? Why is it worth it? And how is the decline in quality not at all related to the devaluation of education?
 
Ok, I'm getting confused. Did you actually argue that welfare caused you to secure a lucrative job? I thought you were talking about the Pell Grant which I assumed you used to get a degree and then secure the position. But you're actually talking about welfare. Please tell me how you did it!

The pell grant was necessary for me to get my first degree (an associates) which allowed me to go to college due to my increased GPA. I had a terrible financial history and I doubt people would give me a loan. The education was a necessary ingredient to gain a better job. Than I went and got a bachelors under my own power. All of this because of what was provided for me. I am paying it back and than some, making it a worthy investment by society.

And what is your simple point? That devaluing education is worth it to be able to say the majority have degrees?

No, that no matter how much education might be devalued, its still going to be more valuable than not having an education (assuming one does not go into an unrelated field).

If the degrees mean little to the actual innovation of this country, then what is the point? Why is it worth it? And how is the decline in quality not at all related to the devaluation of education?

I believe that increased education is necessary for innovations, especially when you are dealing with technology or other engineering type stuff. It might not be so necessary for other things that rely on other types of intelligences. Overall though, I think widespread education is one of the main reasons our technology is evolving so quickly and so much faster than in the past. Not sure what you are asking in your other questions.
 
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There are no "actual" rights, there are only what people decide are rights. You have the right to whatever it is you can get the society in which you live to go along with. As such, I think it's unarguable that in any civilised society, people ought to have the right to a roof over their head and to be treated when they're unwell.
 
There are no "actual" rights, there are only what people decide are rights. You have the right to whatever it is you can get the society in which you live to go along with. As such, I think it's unarguable that in any civilised society, people ought to have the right to a roof over their head and to be treated when they're unwell.
I really dont understand why some people do not understand that having a right does not equate to the entitlement to the means necessary to exercise said right.
 
I really dont understand why some people do not understand that having a right does not equate to the entitlement to the means necessary to exercise said right.
Unless the populace votes that way, then you do.
 
Unless the populace votes that way, then you do.
You do? How does having a right equate to being able to force others to provide you means to exercise that right?
 
You do? How does having a right equate to being able to force others to provide you means to exercise that right?
If that's what your countrymen decide a right is, then that's what it is.

Again, there are no "actual" rights, so if you want to manufacture some, the rules are yours to make.
 
If that's what your countrymen decide a right is, then that's what it is.
Oh, I see. So you arent really talking about rights, you're talking about priviliges granted to you by the state.
That's something else entirely.
 
If that's what your countrymen decide a right is, then that's what it is.

Again, there are no "actual" rights, so if you want to manufacture some, the rules are yours to make.

Though I'm not a religious man, I do believe there are some fundamental rights that all human beings have. Your suggesting that human beings have no actual rights, and therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with committing murder or stealing. The laws against such acts are merely arbitrary.
 
Though I'm not a religious man, I do believe there are some fundamental rights that all human beings have. Your suggesting that human beings have no actual rights, and therefore there is nothing inherently wrong with committing murder or stealing. The laws against such acts are merely arbitrary.
In what way are they not? I believe in morality and the possibility of moral progress, but nobody has an unmolestable "right" to not be murdered, they only have an injunction against it by the state which can be taken away in the blink of an eye.
Oh, I see. So you arent really talking about rights, you're talking about priviliges granted to you by the state.
That's something else entirely.
It's more difficult to discuss things that don't exist than you realize. My point is that whatever it you think are rights aren't real things. The word means different things to different people, all of who are equally wrong.
 
The pell grant was necessary for me to get my first degree (an associates) which allowed me to go to college due to my increased GPA. I had a terrible financial history and I doubt people would give me a loan. The education was a necessary ingredient to gain a better job. Than I went and got a bachelors under my own power. All of this because of what was provided for me. I am paying it back and than some, making it a worthy investment by society.



No, that no matter how much education might be devalued, its still going to be more valuable than not having an education (assuming one does not go into an unrelated field).



I believe that increased education is necessary for innovations, especially when you are dealing with technology or other engineering type stuff. It might not be so necessary for other things that rely on other types of intelligences. Overall though, I think widespread education is one of the main reasons our technology is evolving so quickly and so much faster than in the past. Not sure what you are asking in your other questions.

1) Again, you're under the assumption that nothing is possible without government aid. You could still get a loan despite bad credit. There's something called a high-risk loan. I have one. I'm a young 23 year old that was so determined to have a bike at the age of 20 that I agreed to a 6-year long high-risk loan that charges 20% interest and gives me no opportunity to refinance. If you messed up your credit, it is not my responsibility to fix your mistakes. No matter how messy things get, YOU can always clean them up. If that means taking a high-risk loan with 20% interest, then so be it. Sometimes, when you've made enough mistakes in life, you have to just turn those lemons into lemonade. It is not fair that I fix your mistakes.

2) Again, you fail to realize just how ridiculous and wasteful a society full of know-nothing graduates can be. I strongly disagree. A B.A. is no longer an effective measurement of the educational level and productivity of this country. It is better to be a hardworking, ambitious high school graduate than it is to be a philosophy graduate working some meaningless job. If you never went to college but you did receive some formal training in a technical program, that is at least better than wasting your time obtaining an esoteric degree that becomes nearly useless once you graduate.

3) Compared to many countries in Asia, our innovation and productivity is quite embarrassing. There are a lot of things wrong with the educational system in America, but you seem happy with the status quo. And, as I've already mentioned, the ploy to get more young people to pursue college B.A.s has led to a massive growth in "social science" degrees. These fields of study have absolutely nothing to do with engineering or hard science.
 
The first rule of economics is scarcity. There is never enough resources to satisfy the needs and wants of all people. The first rule of politics is to disregard the first rule of economics.

not quite. scarcity is not a rule, it is just a word. and there is more than enough to satisfy the needs and wants (if you understand 'wants' in it original meaning of "lack" rather than "desire").

the essential rule of economics may be stated in several ways: increase in supply results in increase in demand, increase in price result in decrease in demand.. increase in demand that does not result in an increase in supply will result in an increase in price.

not that that matters in the least. economics as you are stating it is a social construct, not a verity of nature. Economics as a practice is not a moral philosophy it is a means to an end. and you are framing the question in a way that suits the answer you would like to give. it is not so much a matter of a right to "stuff" as it is a matter of their being no greater a right to what is needed for well being on the part of one than any other, as all men are equal.

We suffer not from a lack of rights for "our daily bread" but rather from a denial of those rights on the part of those who control the means for producing it. It is not a matter of "property is theft" as "ownership is denial of access". when EVERYTHING is owned by someone, that denial becomes, essentially, a denial of natural right to those who do not own enough.

it is not a new idea. it has its roots in the earliest of civilizations and likely before. Contemporary liberals, though, will trace their claim's roots to the beginning of modern liberalism and the pursuit of liberty and natural right. many of those whom we honor as predicating the freedoms and wealth that we enjoy gave us the foundations for such a claim:
The commonwealth seems to me to be a society of men constituted only for the procuring, preserving, and advancing their own civil interests. . . . .Civil interests I call life, liberty, health, and indolency of body; and the possession of outward things, such as money, lands, houses, furniture, and the like.
- John Locke

Locke is a favorite of Conservatives and Libertarians (which, are after all, just conservatives in jeans who smoke pot), but they tend to leave out those of his ideas they find inconvenient. It was Locke's premise, for instance that wealth is just dandy... and in fact, Adam Smith cites Locke...but Locke insisted this was only true when the essential needs of ALL had been met (damned commie!).

but, let us consider someone a little closer to what it means to be an american, Thomas Paine". Do not think, though, that I intend to present m. Paine as an antagonist toward the ownership of property or of personal wealth. he was not. In spite of the progress of Liberal revolutions, he said
"we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised to furnish new pretences for revenue and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey, and permits none to escape without a tribute."
sounds a lot like a tea partier, don't he. well, of course, in a sense he was. He was not out there on the deck of a merchant ship dressed like an indian, of course, but the sentiment was certainly his. but... he was not so simpleminded nor as avaricious as most conservatives are today. he begins with some simple premises (all quotes taken from Paine's, The Rights Of Man)
Political liberty consists in the power of doing whatever does not injure another.

The right to property being inviolable and sacred, no one ought to be deprived of it

A Declaration of Rights is, by reciprocity, a Declaration of Duties also. Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess.

Government is nothing more than a national association; and the object of this association is the good of all, as well individually as collectively.

Every individual, high or low, is interested (that is, "has a material interest in, invested' - geo.) in the fruits of the earth....It is the only one for which the common prayer of mankind is put up, and the only one that can never fail from the want (that is, "lack") of means (that is, the ability to acquire it). It is the interest, not of the policy, but of the existence of man, and when it ceases, he must cease to be.
summary: a rightful claim to the material wealth of the earth or of a nation belongs to no one, but all. to deny that is to injure another. We form governments to guarantee and enforce these basic, natural rights.

conclusion:
In stating these matters, I speak an open and disinterested language, dictated by no passion but that of humanity. . . .it is no wonder that meanness [ie: greed] and imposition appear disgustful. Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.

Public money ought to be touched with the most scrupulous consciousness of honour. It is not the produce of riches only, but of the hard earnings of labour and poverty. It is drawn even from the bitterness of want [that is, "lack" or "need"] and misery. Not a beggar passes, or perishes in the streets, whose mite is not in that mass.
he recommends "to make a remission of taxes to the poor" as a practical as well as a moral matter and a recognition of natural right. in other words, eliminate the inhumane 'workfare' and simply give poor people enough of what we all need to survive and to which we ALL have a natural right. it will cost less and provide better. that has been shown to be true, btw.... in the days of real welfare programs, the insistence on catching 'cheats' resulted in a far greater expenditure in enforcement than was actually lost through questionable claims.
It will then remain to be considered, which is the most effectual mode of distributing this remission.... It is easily seen, that the poor are generally composed of large families of children, and old people past their labour. If these two classes are provided for, the remedy will so far reach to the full extent of the case, that what remains will be incidental
one criteria, he obliges, and one only; that all children attend school.
not only the poverty of the parents will be relieved, but ignorance will be banished from the rising generation, and the number of poor will hereafter become less, because their abilities, by the aid of education, will be greater.
he justifies this not as an act of charity ("not as a matter of grace and favour") but one of a nation's pursuit of soverign well being and as an individual "right". the result?
The hearts of the humane will not be shocked by ragged and hungry children, and persons of seventy and eighty years of age, begging for bread. The dying poor will not be dragged from place to place to breathe their last... Widows will have a maintenance for their children, and not be carted away, on the death of their husbands, like culprits and criminals; and children will no longer be considered as increasing the distresses of their parents. The haunts of the wretched will be known, because it will be to their advantage; and the number of petty crimes, the offspring of distress and poverty, will be lessened. The poor, as well as the rich, will then be interested (again, meaning "having a material investment") in the support of government, and the cause and apprehension of riots and tumults will cease.-
and, again, this has been shown to have merit. no, it will not eliminate crime all by itself but it does reduce it. there is lots of data to support that.

but practical reasons aside and to repeat - no one has the right to deny any other what they need to maintain simple well being NOR to oblige that anyone dedicate their time and energies to obtain what they have a right to.

the first is theft. the latter is slavery.

geo.
 
Though I'm not a religious man, I do believe there are some fundamental rights that all human beings have.
If you do not believe this, you immediately throwout all idea that "all men are created equal" and everything that is based on it.

Some are more than happy to argue that the majority define the rights of all -- right up to the point where th emajority limit their rights in a way they do not like.
 
not quite. scarcity is not a rule, it is just a word. and there is more than enough to satisfy the needs and wants (if you understand 'wants' in it original meaning of "lack" rather than "desire").

the essential rule of economics may be stated in several ways: increase in supply results in increase in demand, increase in price result in decrease in demand.. increase in demand that does not result in an increase in supply will result in an increase in price.

not that that matters in the least. economics as you are stating it is a social construct, not a verity of nature. Economics as a practice is not a moral philosophy it is a means to an end. and you are framing the question in a way that suits the answer you would like to give. it is not so much a matter of a right to "stuff" as it is a matter of their being no greater a right to what is needed for well being on the part of one than any other, as all men are equal.

We suffer not from a lack of rights for "our daily bread" but rather from a denial of those rights on the part of those who control the means for producing it. It is not a matter of "property is theft" as "ownership is denial of access". when EVERYTHING is owned by someone, that denial becomes, essentially, a denial of natural right to those who do not own enough.

it is not a new idea. it has its roots in the earliest of civilizations and likely before. Contemporary liberals, though, will trace their claim's roots to the beginning of modern liberalism and the pursuit of liberty and natural right. many of those whom we honor as predicating the freedoms and wealth that we enjoy gave us the foundations for such a claim:

- John Locke

Locke is a favorite of Conservatives and Libertarians (which, are after all, just conservatives in jeans who smoke pot), but they tend to leave out those of his ideas they find inconvenient. It was Locke's premise, for instance that wealth is just dandy... and in fact, Adam Smith cites Locke...but Locke insisted this was only true when the essential needs of ALL had been met (damned commie!).

but, let us consider someone a little closer to what it means to be an american, Thomas Paine". Do not think, though, that I intend to present m. Paine as an antagonist toward the ownership of property or of personal wealth. he was not. In spite of the progress of Liberal revolutions, he said

sounds a lot like a tea partier, don't he. well, of course, in a sense he was. He was not out there on the deck of a merchant ship dressed like an indian, of course, but the sentiment was certainly his. but... he was not so simpleminded nor as avaricious as most conservatives are today. he begins with some simple premises (all quotes taken from Paine's, The Rights Of Man)

summary: a rightful claim to the material wealth of the earth or of a nation belongs to no one, but all. to deny that is to injure another. We form governments to guarantee and enforce these basic, natural rights.

conclusion:

he recommends "to make a remission of taxes to the poor" as a practical as well as a moral matter and a recognition of natural right. in other words, eliminate the inhumane 'workfare' and simply give poor people enough of what we all need to survive and to which we ALL have a natural right. it will cost less and provide better. that has been shown to be true, btw.... in the days of real welfare programs, the insistence on catching 'cheats' resulted in a far greater expenditure in enforcement than was actually lost through questionable claims.

one criteria, he obliges, and one only; that all children attend school.

he justifies this not as an act of charity ("not as a matter of grace and favour") but one of a nation's pursuit of soverign well being and as an individual "right". the result?

and, again, this has been shown to have merit. no, it will not eliminate crime all by itself but it does reduce it. there is lots of data to support that.

but practical reasons aside and to repeat - no one has the right to deny any other what they need to maintain simple well being NOR to oblige that anyone dedicate their time and energies to obtain what they have a right to.

the first is theft. the latter is slavery.

geo.

I still don't believe that healthcare services are a right or that a job is a right. If you follow this logic through, then it automatically assumes that others must be forced to sacrifice their services, their labor, or their earnings in order to sustain these certain "rights" which cannot, forever be broken unless sacrificed by the individual. You open up a whole can of worms when you deal with issuing entitlements and passing them off as natural rights, regardless of what Locke believed.

Otherwise, you bring up some very good points. Kudos.
 
I still don't believe that healthcare services are a right.... You open up a whole can of worms when you deal with issuing entitlements and passing them off as natural rights, regardless of what Locke believed.
arguable. i do not think that Locke's premise was that you have an obligation to provide HC for me, only that health and the provision of what is needed to maintain it, is a right that i may not be DENIED. I would argue that the current method for providing healthcare is actually more a means of denying healthcare.
Otherwise, you bring up some very good points. Kudos.

thanks. that is greatly appreciated.

geo.
 
Now-a-days, if you have the right to something, the argument from the left is that the government must then provide it to you, thru means forcibly acquired from others, should you not have the means to provide it for yourself.

Except for guns, of course.

Why not guns? It's a basic human right to have a gun. They are expensive, therefore the government should supply firearms to all of the citizens of this country that have achieved the age of 10.

Ammo too.
 
Why not guns? It's a basic human right to have a gun. They are expensive, therefore the government should supply firearms to all of the citizens of this country that have achieved the age of 10.

Ammo too.

no, it is a basic American Civil Right to own guns.

geo.
 
no, it is a basic American Civil Right to own guns.
It is a constitutionally-protected fundamental right.
The right that it applies to - the right to self-defense - is a human right.
 
the right self defense is a inarguable. the right to use a weapon to defend oneself is certainly arguable. given that a weapon MAY be used, what sort of weapon is certainly arguable.

the constitution defines civil rights, not human rights. human rights are yours inherent in your being human. you were not born with a gun in your hand. you are granted the legal right to own guns by law, not nature, not god.

geo.
 
the right self defense is a inarguable. the right to use a weapon to defend oneself is certainly arguable. given that a weapon MAY be used, what sort of weapon is certainly arguable.
That doesnt really change anything I said.

The constitution defines civil rights, not human rights
The constitution -protects- both human -and- civil rights.

you are granted the legal right to own guns by law, not nature, not god.
The law does not -grant- the right to own a gun.
 
That doesnt really change anything I said.
no, it corrects what you mistakenly said.
The constitution -protects- both human -and- civil rights.
gee... no.

the rights to Life, Liberty, Pursuit Of Happiness... are NOT in the constitution. for a good reason. they need not be. they are apriori.

the constitution IS law. the right to own guns IS in the constitution, defined as a legal right, for a good reason. Because it is not a preexisting right that one can claim as a human being, but as an American Citizen.

The law does not -grant- the right to own a gun.

yes, it most assuredly does.

geo.
 
no, it corrects what you mistakenly said.
If that were true, it would change what I said. What I said was correct; nothing your said in reponse negated my statement,

gee... no.
the rights to Life, Liberty, Pursuit Of Happiness... are NOT in the constitution. for a good reason. they need not be. they are apriori.
No... but the -- protections -- for them are. I said that the constitution -protects- both human -and- civil rights, and it does.

the constitution IS law. the right to own guns IS in the constitution, defined as a legal right, for a good reason
.
The right to keep and bear arms is protected, not granted, by the Constitution. For good reason - they are a priori.

Because it is not a preexisting right that one can claim as a human being, but as an American Citizen.
The right to arms pre-exists the constitution; nothing in the Constitution or US law grants that (or any other) right.

Yes, it most assuredly does
.
Please quote the Constitutional/legislative text to that effect.
 
arguable. i do not think that Locke's premise was that you have an obligation to provide HC for me, only that health and the provision of what is needed to maintain it, is a right that i may not be DENIED. I would argue that the current method for providing healthcare is actually more a means of denying healthcare.


thanks. that is greatly appreciated.

geo.

Ok. Now, in what ways are those services denied to people?

You're welcome.
 
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