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Which is the greater threat to US and European security?

Which is the greater threat to US and European security?


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mmi

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By "the conditions that allow for radical Islamic terrorism to develop and expand," I mean:

Hundreds of millions of people under the age of 25 in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia who know about the relative prosperity of the West and feel they are locked out because of a lack of economic and educational opportunities by poverty, bad governance, and corruption.

This question came to mind while I was watching SOS Kerry being interviewed by Charlie Rose.
 

Orly?

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Oh, I thaught you meant: Hundreds of thousands of people under the age of 25 from parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia who know about the relative prosperity of the West and are invading Europe..

That is the REAL threat..
 

mmi

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If a mod could do ONE MORE favour for me and move this to the "Polls" board, which was where I wanted to post it, … I will make every effort to stop trying to post poll questions at DP.
 

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Moderator's Warning:
Thread moved as requested
 

Bodhisattva

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There are hundreds of MILLIONS of poor people around the world NOT engaging in terrorism... so I say it is the Radicals themselves that are the problem.
 

Eric7216

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Isn't the condition that allows radical Islam terrorism to develop and expand basically radical Islamic terrorism?
When schools largely consist of walking around while memorizing passages from the Koran you probably won't develop the skills needed to improve your lives. And those schools have those teaching methods because they are Islamic.
 

TheGoverness

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Isn't the condition that allows radical Islam terrorism to develop and expand basically radical Islamic terrorism?
When schools largely consist of walking around while memorizing passages from the Koran you probably won't develop the skills needed to improve your lives. And those schools have those teaching methods because they are Islamic.
Are you referring to Western Civilization?
 

mmi

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There are hundreds of MILLIONS of poor people around the world NOT engaging in terrorism... so I say it is the Radicals themselves that are the problem.

Fair point. But so then what is the solution? Can we kill our way out of this conflict?

The Q & A between Rose and Kerry that prompted me to post this poll is in this video, starting at 38:41 and running for about four minutes.

He makes an encouraging point toward the end about how a middle class is being built in China and India, and about progress being made in the fight against diseases. He calls for more foreign aid and assistance to work to resolve the issue. I'd say that a moral imperative to help our fellow human beings, so much a part of many religions, as well as common sense and self interest, make that the way to go.

Thanks to the staff for moving this thread and for tolerating my clumsy efforts to get it posted. I didn't even get the wording right in my explanation in the OP. This polling stuff is tougher than it looks.
 
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Van Basten

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There are hundreds of MILLIONS of poor people around the world NOT engaging in terrorism... so I say it is the Radicals themselves that are the problem.

That's the **** that gets me.

I get that we screw around and create conditions that allow some very evil folks to fester.

But, it's not an excuse.

Plenty of screwed over people in the world not blowing themselves up, most, actually.
 

Paleocon

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By "the conditions that allow for radical Islamic terrorism to develop and expand," I mean:

Hundreds of millions of people under the age of 25 in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia who know about the relative prosperity of the West and feel they are locked out because of a lack of economic and educational opportunities by poverty, bad governance, and corruption.

This question came to mind while I was watching SOS Kerry being interviewed by Charlie Rose.

Which is a greater threat, Ebola, or bodily fluids containing Ebola?

Also, attributing Islamic devotion to poverty is, well, like attributing Ebola to poverty.
 

mmi

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attributing Islamic devotion to poverty is, well, like attributing Ebola to poverty.

You figure the spread of a disease like Ebola is unrelated to poverty? You might wanna look through some of this material.

And being a devout Muslim does not lead one to be a terrorist, not any more than being a devout Christian leads one to stone adulterers.
 

Paleocon

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You figure the spread of a disease like Ebola is unrelated to poverty? You might wanna look through some of this material.

I figure that poverty didn't create Ebola. While poverty may (does) increase the spread of Ebola for a number of reasons, it isn't the reason why Ebola exists, nor is it the biological cause of its spread (the cause of Ebola spreading is the transmission of bodily fluids containing Ebola virus from one person to another, and the cause of Islamic terrorism is people becoming convinced that Muhammed is the prophet of God, poverty may increase the chances of these things happening, but it isn't an ultimate cause)

And being a devout Muslim does not lead one to be a terrorist,

Muhammed commanded his followers to wage jihad on the unbelievers. It's true that most Muslims do not follow this command, but Islam is not a democracy, so that's irrelevant.

not any more than being a devout Christian leads one to stone adulterers.

Muhammed: "Kill the infidel"

Christ: "Let he who is without sin . . ."

It would be harder to come up with a better parody of liberal apologetics for Islam if one was trying to parody.
 

mmi

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I figure that poverty didn't create Ebola.

No, but it was responsible for the epidemic that killed more than 11K people. If the virus had originated in a developed country, the death toll would have been much, much smaller. And without the hundreds of millions of dollars needed to establish and carry out effective clinical care, implement rigorous infection prevention and control measures, trace people who were exposed, and principally to develop vaccines to fight the disease, many, many more would have died. ("Non-conventional humanitarian interventions on Ebola outbreak crisis in West Africa: health, ethics and legal implications," Infectious Diseases of Poverty, 3(1):42, Nov 25, 2014

>>poverty [was not] the biological cause of its spread (the cause of Ebola spreading is the transmission of bodily fluids containing Ebola virus from one person to another)

A narrow and misleading analysis.

>>the cause of Islamic terrorism is people becoming convinced that Muhammed is the prophet of God

No, that is absurd. As has been noted here, many millions of Muslims, in fact many millions of Muslims living in abject poverty, are not terrorists. One person contracting Ebola (apparently after being bitten by a bat) did not cause the epidemic — poverty did. Millions of people believing that Muhammad was the prophet of Allah did not create Islamic terrorism — poverty did.

>>poverty may increase the chances of these things happening, but it isn't an ultimate cause

It's the cause of the epidemics of both Ebola and Islamic terrorism. Without it, they never would have spread.

>>Muhammed commanded his followers to wage jihad on the unbelievers.

And Christians are commanded by God to stone adulterers.

>>It's true that most Muslims do not follow this command, but Islam is not a democracy, so that's irrelevant.

More nonsense. It's true that most Christians do not follow the command to stone adulterers. Is Christianity a democracy?

>>Muhammed: "Kill the infidel"

Can you offer a citation for that? No.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." — Chapter 2, verse 190

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah."— chapter 8, verse 61

The call to kill non-Muslims is associated with a defensive war against forces attacking Muslim communities. Do Christians believe in self-defence?

>>It would be harder to come up with a better parody of liberal apologetics for Islam if one was trying to parody.

It seems to me you treat Islam the same way you approach Judaism — with hatred and ignorance. All three religions teach that there is one God, and that the path to Heaven is through peace and love for yer neighbors. The people who desperately want you and others to believe that Islam is an intolerant, violent religion … are the terrorists. You are playing their fool, just as the young people who engage in these murders are.
 

Paleocon

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No, but it was responsible for the epidemic that killed more than 11K people. If the virus had originated in a developed country, the death toll would have been much, much smaller. And without the hundreds of millions of dollars needed to establish and carry out effective clinical care, implement rigorous infection prevention and control measures, trace people who were exposed, and principally to develop vaccines to fight the disease, many, many more would have died. ("Non-conventional humanitarian interventions on Ebola outbreak crisis in West Africa: health, ethics and legal implications," Infectious Diseases of Poverty, 3(1):42, Nov 25, 2014

>>poverty [was not] the biological cause of its spread (the cause of Ebola spreading is the transmission of bodily fluids containing Ebola virus from one person to another)

A narrow and misleading analysis.

>>the cause of Islamic terrorism is people becoming convinced that Muhammed is the prophet of God

No, that is absurd. As has been noted here, many millions of Muslims, in fact many millions of Muslims living in abject poverty, are not terrorists. One person contracting Ebola (apparently after being bitten by a bat) did not cause the epidemic — poverty did. Millions of people believing that Muhammad was the prophet of Allah did not create Islamic terrorism — poverty did.

>>poverty may increase the chances of these things happening, but it isn't an ultimate cause

It's the cause of the epidemics of both Ebola and Islamic terrorism. Without it, they never would have spread.

You just go on believing that. Tell you what, since poverty apparently causes terrorism, why don't you go over to Iraq and give some money to a terrorist, and see how that works out.

>>Muhammed commanded his followers to wage jihad on the unbelievers.

And Christians are commanded by God to stone adulterers.

Can you read?


>>Muhammed: "Kill the infidel"

Can you offer a citation for that? No.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." — Chapter 2, verse 190

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah."— chapter 8, verse 61

The call to kill non-Muslims is associated with a defensive war against forces attacking Muslim communities. Do Christians believe in self-defence?

How do you imagine Islam spread? Defensive wars?

The people who desperately want you and others to believe that Islam is an intolerant, violent religion … are the terrorists.

Yes, the people who devoutly adhere to Islam want everyone to know authentic Islamic teaching, rather than a watered down version. Thank you for pointing this out.

It is rather humorous that you, an atheist, purport to know more about Christianity and Islam than their most devout adherents.
 

mmi

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since poverty apparently causes terrorism, why don't you go over to Iraq and give some money to a terrorist, and see how that works out.

A characteristically simple-minded response. What say we put a special tax on bigots, confiscating all their assets, and use the money for foreign aid to impoverished countries with large Muslim populations.

>>Can you read?

Yes, and more importantly I can think. Can you?

>>How do you imagine Islam spread? Defensive wars?

How did Christianity spread across North America? Prayer meetings?

>>Yes, the people who devoutly adhere to Islam want everyone to know authentic Islamic teaching, rather than a watered down version. Thank you for pointing this out.

Incomprehensible gibberish.

It is rather humorous that you, an atheist, purport to know more about Christianity and Islam than their most devout adherents.

I'm an Episcopalian. What are you? A Bigotarian?
 
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The greatest threat are the Muslims born in the host countries. Without skills, not assimilating, on welfare, aggressive, and NOT DEPORTABLE no matter what they do. Like an incurable cancer that metastasized.
 

Glen Contrarian

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By "the conditions that allow for radical Islamic terrorism to develop and expand," I mean:

Hundreds of millions of people under the age of 25 in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia who know about the relative prosperity of the West and feel they are locked out because of a lack of economic and educational opportunities by poverty, bad governance, and corruption.

This question came to mind while I was watching SOS Kerry being interviewed by Charlie Rose.

Unfortunately, there's so many conservatives who cannot tear themselves away from the assumption that Islam itself is the cause, and that there's some kind of war between "Christianity" and Islam. They can't see that poverty and lack of education and social order are the reasons, and that certain tenets of Islam are the excuse, just as certain things written in the Bible were (and sometimes still are) used as excuses for horrible crimes against those who the oh-so-religious people don't like.
 
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Unfortunately, there's so many conservatives who cannot tear themselves away from the assumption that Islam itself is the cause, and that there's some kind of war between "Christianity" and Islam. They can't see that poverty and lack of education and social order are the reasons, and that certain tenets of Islam are the excuse, just as certain things written in the Bible were (and sometimes still are) used as excuses for horrible crimes against those who the oh-so-religious people don't like.

And the conclusion is? Why would I care why Muslims rape women in Europe? They do it and that's all that matters.
 

Glen Contrarian

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And the conclusion is? Why would I care why Muslims rape women in Europe? They do it and that's all that matters.

You pay so much attention to a relatively very small percentage of Muslims causing trouble in Europe...yet I don't see you raising hell about, say, the American "Christian" leaders who supported (and assisted in) the efforts of certain African nations to pass laws declaring homosexuality to be a capital crime. Nor do I see you raising hell about the enclaves here in America where "Christians" not only practice polygamy but also kick out young men to keep the competition down...and arrange marriages to girls as young as fifteen. And then there's the small matter that you're not raising hell about the FACT that every single year, more innocent Americans are killed by other Americans than have been killed by terrorists in all of America's history combined, including 9/11.

In other words, before you complain about the mote in the other person's eye, get the log out of your own eye.
 
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You pay so much attention to a relatively very small percentage of Muslims causing trouble in Europe...yet I don't see you raising hell about, say, the American "Christian" leaders who supported (and assisted in) the efforts of certain African nations to pass laws declaring homosexuality to be a capital crime. Nor do I see you raising hell about the enclaves here in America where "Christians" not only practice polygamy but also kick out young men to keep the competition down...and arrange marriages to girls as young as fifteen. And then there's the small matter that you're not raising hell about the FACT that every single year, more innocent Americans are killed by other Americans than have been killed by terrorists in all of America's history combined, including 9/11.

In other words, before you complain about the mote in the other person's eye, get the log out of your own eye.

We are discussing Muslims behaving badly in host countries. Did you know that Sweden is now number 2 in the whole wide world on the list of the countries with the highest rape rates, all but a few by their Muslim refugees? Did you know that 95% of welfare cases in Denmark are Muslim refugees? Your "very small percentage of Muslims causing trouble in Europe" is an attempt to minimize what's happening there. Are rapes in Sweden and Germany, and blowing airports up and killing people just "trouble" in your vocabulary? When we cover these subjects, I am willing to discuss "Christians" and their crimes - like polygamy. Nice try, though. BTW, do you know where Warren Jeff is now and how he got there? Also, keep in mind that all crimes by immigrants are 100% preventable.
 

Paleocon

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A characteristically simple-minded response. What say we put a special tax on bigots, confiscating all their assets, and use the money for foreign aid to impoverished countries with large Muslim populations.

By "bigot" you mean a non-leftist, correct?

Yes, and more importantly I can think.

Ha.

I'm an Episcopalian. What are you? A Bigotarian?

You've elsewhere purported to be an agnostic. Were you lying?
 

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Unfortunately, there's so many conservatives who cannot tear themselves away from the assumption that Islam itself is the cause, and that there's some kind of war between "Christianity" and Islam. They can't see that poverty and lack of education and social order are the reasons, and that certain tenets of Islam are the excuse, just as certain things written in the Bible were (and sometimes still are) used as excuses for horrible crimes against those who the oh-so-religious people don't like.

as has been stated, lots of people are impoverished, uneducated, and are the bottom of the social order..... yet they don't engage in terrorism.

how can this be if poverty , education, and social order are the reason for terrorism?
 

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as has been stated, lots of people are impoverished, uneducated, and are the bottom of the social order..... yet they don't engage in terrorism.

how can this be if poverty , education, and social order are the reason for terrorism?

They are factors that contribute to terrorism but are not the sole reason behind terrorism.

Other contribuiting factors exist, but trying to pin the blame on one issue is disfficult.
 

Thrilla

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They are factors that contribute to terrorism but are not the sole reason behind terrorism.

Other contribuiting factors exist, but trying to pin the blame on one issue is disfficult.

breathing oxygen is also a factor... but I think our efforts would be best spend on identifying factors that are shared by the terrorists, and actually contribute to their motivations/actions.

poverty, education, and social order are not shared factors... nor are they motivating factors.
lots of terrorists are educated, middle class types.. some are even rich ( Bin Laden, for example)

I'm not sure why people are intent on negating their religious views as a primary factor, but it's a bit mindboggling.

I don't believe it's difficult to pin down the primary factor at all... the only thing difficult in in choosing how to address it, keeping our religious liberty principles intact.
we can keep looking the other way and pretend their brand of Islam isn't the primary factor... but it would ultimately be dumb to do so.

for my ,money, i think we'll continue to be dumb.. in hopes radical Islamic terrorists become bored of their shenanigans and stop all on their own.

it's my hope that all these young Muslim men who are running away from the fight, by the hundreds of thousands, will actually grow some balls and retake their religion, and their countries... but that's about as likely as me growing a manbun and wearing skinny jeans.
 
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