Which is the greater threat to US and European security?

[mmi]

Did you know that Sweden is now number 2 in the whole wide world on the list of the countries with the highest rape rates, all but a few by their Muslim refugees?

No, I don't know that. And since the Swedish government doesn't collect that information, neither do you. Yer just repeating a lie you read on a right-wing hate site.

>>Did you know that 95% of welfare cases in Denmark are Muslim refugees?

Another stinkin' fascist lie. It's been widely reported in the bigoted reactionary media that a recent Danish Ministry of Employment report noted that, of the percentage of married couples in Denmark where both partners are completely dependent on public assistance (iow, have no other income), 84 percent are migrants of non-European origin. A world of difference, but yet another opportunity for bigots to spread their filthy lies.

By "bigot" you mean a non-leftist, correct?

No, I mean, e.g., people who claim to be "proudly anti-Semitic."

>>You've elsewhere purported to be an agnostic. Were you lying?

No, I'm both an Episcopalian and an agnostic. And I'm not a liar.

In my view, Jesus accepted everyone into His loving arms — atheists, agnostics, criminals, tax collectors, even Jews and Muslims that you so proudly hate.

poverty, education, and social order are not shared factors... nor are they motivating factors.
lots of terrorists are educated, middle class types.. some are even rich ( Bin Laden, for example)

A common error. Without a very large population of Muslims who live in poverty and feel they are excluded from the opportunities available in developed countries, there would be no political support for terrorism. It would not exist.

>>I'm not sure why people are intent on negating their religious views as a primary factor, but it's a bit mindboggling.

It may be mind-boggling to you, but I'd suggest you should give it more thought. There are violent, murderous Christian sociopaths, e.g., Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr, the proud anti-Semite convicted in 2014 of capital murder, and now on death row in Missouri. Do you see him as representative of Christianity?

>>I don't believe it's difficult to pin down the primary factor at all.

Neither do I.

>>the only thing difficult in in choosing how to address it, keeping our religious liberty principles intact.

I don't see how there's any problem with "religious liberty principles." I'd say the problem is with ignorance, xenophobia, anti-Muslim bigotry.

>>we can keep looking the other way and pretend their brand of Islam isn't the primary factor... but it would ultimately be dumb to do so.

No one is ignoring "their brand of Islam."

>>it's my hope that all these young Muslim men who are running away from the fight, by the hundreds of thousands, will actually grow some balls and retake their religion, and their countries... but that's about as likely as me growing a manbun and wearing skinny jeans.

Childish nonsense.

 

[Van Basten]

You figure the spread of a disease like Ebola is unrelated to poverty? You might wanna look through some of this material.

And being a devout Muslim does not lead one to be a terrorist, not any more than being a devout Christian leads one to stone adulterers.

Stoning isn't a Christian thing.

 

[legalimmigrant]

No, I don't know that. And since the Swedish government doesn't collect that information, neither do you. .

Yes, they do.

From that bigoted and racist source, Wikipedia: Two reports from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (BRÅ) are relevant to the rate of rape among immigrants to Sweden and their descendants. The latest published report that indicates the association between immigrants and rape was published in 2005 and revealed that from 1997 to 2001 foreign born individuals were 5.5 times more likely to be charged of rape than individuals born in Sweden to two Swedish parents and that foreign born individuals from all regions, apart from East Asia, committed sexual assaults at rates up to 5.3 times greater than that of individuals born in Sweden to two Swedish parents.

And that was 15 years ago. If you think that things got better,... Well, never mind. Yeah, the Swedish women who were raped just imagined that the attackers were foreign scum. And so did the German victims recently.

BTW, you are right about the fact that the liberals in Europe are doing their best to suppress inconvenient data about the crimes committed by "refugees" and other immigrants. Just like the Obama's FBI.

 

[legalimmigrant]

They are factors that contribute to terrorism but are not the sole reason behind terrorism.

Other contributing factors exist, but trying to pin the blame on one issue is difficult.

We didn't give a rat's rear end why Germany started WW2. We just killed enough of them to win. And then, to drive the point home, we executed the worst of them. That's what you do with the terrorists instead analyzing their grievances and unhappy living conditions.

 

[mmi]

Stoning isn't a Christian thing.

If I were someone who believed the Bible is the Word of God, how would I feel about that? Don't "super-Christians" use the biblical condemnation of homosexuality to ostracize gays and lesbians?

Yes, they do.

Again, no they don't. You said, "Sweden is now number 2 in the whole wide world on the list of the countries with the highest rape rates, all but a few by their Muslim refugees."

Statistics on the religion of those accused or convicted of rape are not and never were collected. And the reason Sweden rates so high on rape statistics is that its definition of rape is broader than the one used in most other countries.

[T]he major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before. — "Sweden's rape rate under the spotlight," BBC, Sept 15, 2012​

I was reluctant to bring that up because, like many people, I find sexual assault to be a particularly despicable crime, but since yer determined to misrepresent these statistics to further yer bigoted argument, …

>>from 1997 to 2001 foreign born individuals were 5.5 times more likely to be charged of rape than individuals born in Sweden [emphasis added]

Yeah, "foreign-born." That's not quite the same as "Muslim refugees," is it? It's a group that includes those born in the 195 countries in the world that aren't Sweden, and has nothing at all to do with religion or being a refugee.

We didn't give a rat's rear end why Germany started WW2.

If we had done more to prevent the conditions that led to the rise of Nazism, there might not have been a Second World War. Ironic that you should use that example, given that Hitler and his pals were disgusting bigots.

 

[legalimmigrant]

If I were someone who believed the Bible is the Word of God, how would I feel about that? Don't "super-Christians" use the biblical condemnation of homosexuality to ostracize gays and lesbians?



Again, no they don't. You said, "Sweden is now number 2 in the whole wide world on the list of the countries with the highest rape rates, all but a few by their Muslim refugees."

Statistics on the religion of those accused or convicted of rape are not and never were collected. And the reason Sweden rates so high on rape statistics is that its definition of rape is broader than the one used in most other countries.

[T]he major explanation is partly that people go to the police more often, but also the fact that in 2005 there has been reform in the sex crime legislation, which made the legal definition of rape much wider than before. — "Sweden's rape rate under the spotlight," BBC, Sept 15, 2012​

I was reluctant to bring that up because, like many people, I find sexual assault to be a particularly despicable crime, but since yer determined to misrepresent these statistics to further yer bigoted argument, …

>>from 1997 to 2001 foreign born individuals were 5.5 times more likely to be charged of rape than individuals born in Sweden [emphasis added]

Yeah, "foreign-born." That's not quite the same as "Muslim refugees," is it? It's a group that includes those born in the 195 countries in the world that aren't Sweden, and has nothing at all to do with religion or being a refugee.



If we had done more to prevent the conditions that led to the rise of Nazism, there might not have been a Second World War. Ironic that you should use that example, given that Hitler and his pals were disgusting bigots.

"Foreign born" is a PC newspeak to hide the religion. I will bet my last paycheck against a cup of coffee that this statistic does not include Norwegians. A quote:

By Fjordman

Swedish girls Malin and Amanda were on their way to a party on New Year’s Eve when they were assaulted, raped and beaten half to death by four Somali immigrants. Sweden’s largest newspaper has presented the perpetrators as “two men from Sweden, one from Finland and one from Somalia”, a testimony as to how bad the informal censorship is in stories related to immigration in Sweden.

Another one:

According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all perpetrators are immigrants. In Norway and Denmark, we know that non-Western immigrants, which frequently means Muslims, are grossly over-represented on rape statistics. In Oslo, Norway, immigrants were involved in two out of three rape charges in 2001. The numbers in Denmark were the same, and even higher in the city of Copenhagen with three out of four rape charges. Sweden has a larger immigrant, including Muslim, population than any other country in northern Europe.

Did you notice that "...from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia"? I wonder if those immigrants were Muslims, Jews or, maybe, Christians. Hmm...

I could go on like this forever but I realize that no matter the info or the source, you will deny their validity. What I hope we can agree on is that the crimes by immigrants are 100% preventable and that letting them in is an existential mistake that involves real victims. In most cases women.

 

[mmi]

"Foreign born" is a PC newspeak to hide the religion.

No, it's something that can be validated. How can authorities determine a person's religion?

>>I will bet my last paycheck against a cup of coffee that this statistic does not include Norwegians.

Yer wagering instincts notwithstanding, you don't have the first clue what yer talking about.

>>Did you notice that "...from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia"?

What I did notice is that you post unsupported crap from right-wing, anti-immigrant hate sites. Where's this National Council for Crime Prevention report showing that "resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the group of rape suspects"? Looks to me like yer citing BS from some Stormfront-type blog.

>?>I could go on like this forever

I'm sure you could. There are many other lying bigots out there you could quote.

>>no matter the info or the source, you will deny their validity.

False. You and other bigots blatantly misrepresent the Swedish government's statistics and then add stuff that's completely unsupported, so I reasonably assume it's entirely fabricated.

>>What I hope we can agree on is that the crimes by immigrants are 100% preventable and that letting them in is an existential mistake that involves real victims.

Nope, no agreement there. I can't help you — I'm not a bigot.

 

[legalimmigrant]

No, it's something that can be validated. How can authorities determine a person's religion?


>>What I hope we can agree on is that the crimes by immigrants are 100% preventable and that letting them in is an existential mistake that involves real victims.

Nope, no agreement there. I can't help you — I'm not a bigot.

The authorities there are doing their damnest to hide the offender's religion and race. Same in the US. When the perp is black, it's "youth". When a wanted suspect is black, the press will report the color of his underwear but not his skin, which would immediately reduce the number of suspects by the ratio of 8. Did you know that even speaking against "immigrants" or Muslims is hate speech in Europe, punishable by prison time? And you expect the "authorities" to reveal how criminally stupid their immigration policies are?

As far as the crimes by immigrants being 100% preventable, you are wrong on logic and facts because it's a self-evident truth: If you don't let them in, they cannot rape and murder. Are you still having problems grasping this concept as too complicated for you to understand and you need help?

That "I am not a bigot" is a lie by your own (implied) definition. Do you let everyone who knocks on your door in or do you assess the risks based of a very cursory and superficial examination? If you do, you should not be married or have kids. If you don't, you are a bigot. Also, how many "refugees" live with you now? Do you feed them? Did you give any money? Are you paying their kids' tuitions? If not, why should I as a taxpayer?

Japan's policy: no immigration, no asylum. Are they all bigots? Israel accepts only Jews. Are they bigots, too?

 

[cpwill]

By "the conditions that allow for radical Islamic terrorism to develop and expand," I mean:

Hundreds of millions of people under the age of 25 in parts of the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia who know about the relative prosperity of the West and feel they are locked out because of a lack of economic and educational opportunities by poverty, bad governance, and corruption.
​

This question came to mind while I was watching SOS Kerry being interviewed by Charlie Rose.

Forced to vote for the former because of the narrowness of the provided definition. The conditions that allow for Islamist Terrorism to develop have to include reasons why well-paid doctors and engineers tend to find themselves in it.

 

[mmi]

immigrants … If you don't let them in, they cannot rape and murder.

If we didn't allow bigots to breath, we wouldn't have to tolerate their presence.

>>Are you still having problems grasping this concept as too complicated for you to understand and you need help?

No, ignorant despicable bigotry is very easy to understand.

>>Do you let everyone who knocks on your door in or do you assess the risks based of a very cursory and superficial examination?

I sure don't judge people by their race. Like I said, I'm not a filthy, stinkin' bigot.

>>how many "refugees" live with you now?

Two. Susie and Mickey, the coonhound sisters. Rescue dogs.

>>Do you feed them?

Yes.

>>Are you paying their kids' tuitions?

They're not parents.

>>why should I as a taxpayer?

As I suggested, because we should enact a 100% confiscatory asset tax on bigots. And then deport them to the garbage patches in the Pacific.

>>Japan's policy: no immigration, no asylum. Are they all bigots? Israel accepts only Jews. Are they bigots, too?

The ones who are bigots are bigots. One day Labour will get back in power in Israel.

 

[legalimmigrant]

Forced to vote for the former because of the narrowness of the provided definition. The conditions that allow for Islamist Terrorism to develop have to include reasons why well-paid doctors and engineers tend to find themselves in it.

It's even worse than that. The two criminals who gave us the Boston massacre begged to be allowed to came here. We foolishly agreed. We gave them welfare. We gave them education. We gave them more then I ever got as an immigrant. And then, out of gratitude, they killed those who fed them and were kind to them - the Americans. Predictably, according to FBI interrogators, Dzhokhar and his brother were motivated by extremist Islamic beliefs, which is so often so typical for those terrible Christians. If I am too cryptic, that was sarcasm.

 

[faithful_servant]

You figure the spread of a disease like Ebola is unrelated to poverty? You might wanna look through some of this material.

And being a devout Muslim does not lead one to be a terrorist, not any more than being a devout Christian leads one to stone adulterers.

Christians aren't supposed to stone adulterers, Muslims are... That's something that the Bible made crystal clear (words in red)

 

[faithful_servant]

Unfortunately, there's so many conservatives who cannot tear themselves away from the assumption that Islam itself is the cause, and that there's some kind of war between "Christianity" and Islam. They can't see that poverty and lack of education and social order are the reasons, and that certain tenets of Islam are the excuse, just as certain things written in the Bible were (and sometimes still are) used as excuses for horrible crimes against those who the oh-so-religious people don't like.

So what's the difference between poor Muslims and poor people in S. America (mostly Christian)?? Why does one group respond with widespread violence, while the other doesn't??

 

[legalimmigrant]

If we didn't allow bigots to breath, we wouldn't have to tolerate their presence.

>>Are you still having problems grasping this concept as too complicated for you to understand and you need help?

No, ignorant despicable bigotry is very easy to understand.

>>Do you let everyone who knocks on your door in or do you assess the risks based of a very cursory and superficial examination?

I sure don't judge people by their race. Like I said, I'm not a filthy, stinkin' bigot.

>>how many "refugees" live with you now?

Two. Susie and Mickey, the coonhound sisters. Rescue dogs.

>>Do you feed them?

Yes.

>>Are you paying their kids' tuitions?

They're not parents.

>>why should I as a taxpayer?

As I suggested, because we should enact a 100% confiscatory asset tax on bigots. And then deport them to the garbage patches in the Pacific.

>>Japan's policy: no immigration, no asylum. Are they all bigots? Israel accepts only Jews. Are they bigots, too?

The ones who are bigots are bigots. One day Labour will get back in power in Israel.

I appreciate your help in confirming one more time that being a liberal is a mental disorder. You see, the difference between liberals and "bigots" - like me - is that my bigotry makes people safer. Open border liberals do just the opposite. Liberalism and political correctness kills. Bigoted statement? Then visit the San Bernardino survivors and ask them how they feel about liberals' open borders and arms suicidal policies. Out of compassion, please don't call them bigots if you get an answer you don't like.

 

[faithful_servant]

They are factors that contribute to terrorism but are not the sole reason behind terrorism.

Other contribuiting factors exist, but trying to pin the blame on one issue is disfficult.

But when you have a variety of groups with a very wide array of commonalities and only one of them is committing acts of violence on the scale that we've seen radicalized Muslims carry out, we should be looking at what makes them different. In the current situation we are facing, the biggest difference is Islam.

 

[Lursa]

My bad. I should have read the OP first. I thought the 2nd poll choice meant something else, related to infringing on freedoms here in the US.

I would now vote for the 2nd option.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

So what's the difference between poor Muslims and poor people in S. America (mostly Christian)?? Why does one group respond with widespread violence, while the other doesn't??

Why has only a small fraction of the 1.6 billion Muslims living on planet earth decided to join Deash? Deash does not have millions of supporters at their beck and call.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

But when you have a variety of groups with a very wide array of commonalities and only one of them is committing acts of violence on the scale that we've seen radicalized Muslims carry out, we should be looking at what makes them different. In the current situation we are facing, the biggest difference is Islam.

I will only blame the twisted vision Islam that is promoted by deash. I refuse to divide this conflict into binary terms.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

as has been stated, lots of people are impoverished, uneducated, and are the bottom of the social order..... yet they don't engage in terrorism.

how can this be if poverty , education, and social order are the reason for terrorism?

Tell you what - how about you list what populations are impoverished, uneducated, and at the bottom of the social order on a nationwide scale (not just certain sections of a population such as our own inner cities)...and then tell me how many of them had been conquered and colonized in what is in their eyes recent memory...and how many of them had had their governments overthrown by a first-world nation in order to get access to its oil, and how many of them had their lands taken from them at the behest of the colonizing first-world nation, or had lived under murderous tyrants who were supported or even planted there by first-world nations?

The region has been anything BUT stable, and anyone with even a moderate grasp of history of the past century knows that almost ALL of the instability was caused by the West in our efforts to preserve access to oil or to preserve the new nation of Israel. Their hatred of us is due in large part to what we in the West (not just America, but the nations of Western Europe as well) have done to them.

Oh, wait, let me guess - you think we've been very kind and considerate to them all these years, huh?

 

[legalimmigrant]

So what's the difference between poor Muslims and poor people in S. America (mostly Christian)?? Why does one group respond with widespread violence, while the other doesn't??

You didn't ask me, but I will answer your question anyway. Christianity is a religion. Islam is a totalitarian political system dressed up as a religion to make the resistance by the host to their invasion weaker under the banner of "religious tolerance". Islam has all the same characteristics of communism where I grew up. Muslims and the communists appear benign at first - until they seize power. Then all the freedoms given to them by the unsuspecting host that made the conquest possible are out the window - forever. Lying is not only not a sin, it's an approved tactics. To accelerate the process, Muslims do not tolerate abortions and multiply faster than the natives. In Latvia, they are already threatening to out-populate the locals to turn that country into an Islamic hellhole. Luckily for Hungary and Poland, their governments said no that plan and refused to take any "refugees". Smart.

 

[legalimmigrant]

Oh, wait, let me guess - you think we've been very kind and considerate to them all these years, huh?

Yes. Without the western technology to extract, cars, and the need for oil, these medieval barbarians would have to eat sand. Sounds reasonable, huh?

 

[legalimmigrant]

But when you have a variety of groups with a very wide array of commonalities and only one of them is committing acts of violence on the scale that we've seen radicalized Muslims carry out, we should be looking at what makes them different. In the current situation we are facing, the biggest difference is Islam.

Yes, we should after we kill them. Just like with Germany and Japan. We didn't psychoanalyzed them until they were either dead or gave up shooting.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

We are discussing Muslims behaving badly in host countries. Did you know that Sweden is now number 2 in the whole wide world on the list of the countries with the highest rape rates, all but a few by their Muslim refugees? Did you know that 95% of welfare cases in Denmark are Muslim refugees? Your "very small percentage of Muslims causing trouble in Europe" is an attempt to minimize what's happening there. Are rapes in Sweden and Germany, and blowing airports up and killing people just "trouble" in your vocabulary? When we cover these subjects, I am willing to discuss "Christians" and their crimes - like polygamy. Nice try, though. BTW, do you know where Warren Jeff is now and how he got there? Also, keep in mind that all crimes by immigrants are 100% preventable.

How easily you toss out statistical "facts" without looking more deeply into those statistics. For instance, rape is perhaps the single most underreported felony crime...and if Sweden's culture is such that the victims are more likely to report the rape (as opposed to many third-world nations where rape is almost never reported), then that would strongly - and wrongly - skew the statistics.

You point out 95% of welfare cases in Denmark are Muslim refugees...and let's take that at face value even though you did not provide any reference (much less a credible reference) for your claim. When a refugee arrives in a new nation, is he or she going to be able to immediately go to work and earn more than poverty wages? No. If anything, your claim (if true) shows how successful Denmark is at keeping its population (prior to the pretty-recent arrival of those refugees) OFF the welfare rolls. You didn't think of that, did you?

Guy, you're doing what most conservatives do - blame the millions for the actions of a relative very few. Add up totals of how many are shown to be involved in all the attacks and other crimes so far...and then compare that to the total amount of Muslims in Europe, and then get back to me. And when you see how small the percentage of those Muslims are actually involved, bear in mind that many of them had family members who were killed in Iraq thanks to our invasion (since quite a few of the refugees aren't originally Syrian, but were refugees from Iraq where over 100,000 were killed thanks to our completely-unnecessary invasion). Add to that the fact that they know that almost all instability in the Middle East for the past century was directly due to meddling by America and Western Europe, including WWI, WWII, colonization, installation of the Israeli state, and our efforts to gain and preserve access to oil...and ALL of that is beyond reasonable dispute. Really, considering what Western culture has done to the region over the past century, is it any wonder at all that they don't trust us, and that many hate us, and that some would want to attack us?

And one more thing - Jeffs is in jail, yes...but the FLDS is still functional, its polygamous communities are still there, aren't they?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Yes. Without the western technology to extract, cars, and the need for oil, these medieval barbarians would have to eat sand. Sounds reasonable, huh?

And how would your own culture - whatever you are - react if the ones taking your oil were in your eyes heathens, and forced you to accept governments that they installed, sometimes at the point of a gun? Not to mention the occasional invasion like the one we did in Iraq where over 100,000 Iraqi men, women, and children died?

If you say that none of that would be a big deal to you because you got to use more technology, I'll call you a liar.

 

[legalimmigrant]

Guy, you're doing what most conservatives do - blame the millions for the actions of a relative very few. Add up totals of how many are shown to be involved in all the attacks and other crimes so far...and then compare that to the total amount of Muslims in Europe, and then get back to me.

I will suspend my decision never to debate liberals so I am back. Your "logic" I highlighted is almost like a bad joke. What matters is (1) those Muslims were somewhere else before they invaded Europe. If they stayed away, we would not have this discussion. A woman who was raped by one of them in Germany does not give a **** how many are good elsewhere. What she cares about is that her rapist was invited by that moron, Merkel, and that he raped her. Period. A 100% preventable event.

The second issues is this: Yes, it's true that not all Muslims are terrorists. Bravo. What matters is that 99.99% of all terrorists in 2015, for example, were Muslims and that every time someone somewhere screams "Death to America", this POS is a Muslim and I don't want him here. I have enough problems with the native criminals we can't get rid of for obvious reasons.