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Where Jacking-up the Minimum Wage Leads ...

KevinKohler said:
But yet...the companies can't stay open without these positions filled...so...if productivity isn't making them valuable...and vital need isn't making them valuable...

Then what does?
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You're looking at this the wrong way. There is no single "value" for anything.

When you walk into a coffee shop, chances are you'd rather have a cup of coffee than the $2.50 in your pocket. Conversely, the coffee shop owner, having plenty of coffee on hand, would rather have your $2.50 than hold on to 16oz of his coffee. You value 16oz of coffee at $2.50, or more. He values 16oz of coffee at something less than $2.50, and presto, we have a transaction because you the the coffee shop owner place a different value on a single cup of coffee at that time and at that place.

If you walk into that shop and see 12oz of coffee at $25, you walk out. If you offer $0.25 for the coffee, you're asked to leave. That's how markets work. Each side needs to see enough value (not necessarily the same value) to engage in a voluntary transaction. If either side does not see value, then the transaction doesn't happen.

Back to the point, by artificially elevating the cost of labor, fewer employers will see value in higher priced, low skilled labor. This is fundamental, and there's no escaping it.
 
NatMorton said:
Then they need to deliver more value when they work.
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That, of course, is up to the employer to determine. People are starting to show an uprising against doing shit jobs for multi-billion dollar companies for no money. I'd even go as far to say there may a time coming soon where it will be impossible to fill some of these crap jobs that exist in such large numbers because many better paying jobs don't exist because they've been outsourced to other countries by companies, paying little tax, to maximize already hefty profits. The chickens have come home to roost.
 
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NatMorton said:
... when the cost of labor begins to outpace the economic value that of labor, labor substitution can become economically viable:

boston.cbslocal.com

Dunkin' Opens First 'Digital-Only' Restaurant In Boston

A new kind of Dunkin' has just opened in Boston.
boston.cbslocal.com boston.cbslocal.com
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When the minimum wage goes up, it wage goes up across the board eventually. So what you are saying is that you do not want a raise?

Or are you not in the workforce?
 
NatMorton said:
Are they automating because it’s more expensive or less expensive than labor?
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Labor cost is a reason, among others, in choosing automation, not the reason as both your thread title and opening post incorrectly assert.
NatMorton said:
Where Jacking-up the Minimum Wage Leads
Click to expand...

NatMorton said:
... when the cost of labor begins to outpace the economic value that of labor, labor substitution can become economically viable:

boston.cbslocal.com

Dunkin' Opens First 'Digital-Only' Restaurant In Boston

A new kind of Dunkin' has just opened in Boston.
boston.cbslocal.com boston.cbslocal.com
Click to expand...
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
Republicans are a weird. They say over and over again how much they love capitalism and the free market..

But as soon as the workers/laborers get the upper hand all of the sudden they hate the working class and the free market...
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How did laborers/workers get the "upper hand" as you call it?

Hint: It wasn't the free market.
 
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Cope said:
How did laborers/workers get the "upper hand" as you call it?
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Now? Employers are paying people just to show up to apply for their job openings.. They are paying bonuses to people who take their job openings. They are paying top dollar to new and existing employees..

90s were the last time anything like this happened..
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
Now? Employers are paying people just to show up to apply for their job openings.. They are paying bonuses to people who take their job openings. They are paying top dollar to new and existing employees..

90s were the last time anything like this happened..
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Yes, why do you think that is?
 
Predictably...it leads to MOAR increases....

cepr.net

CORRECTION: The $23 an Hour Minimum Wage - Center for Economic and Policy Research

The problem is that we have made many changes to the economy that shifted huge amounts of income upward, so that we cannot support a pay structure that gives workers at the bottom $52,000 a year. This is the whole point of my book, Rigged.
cepr.net cepr.net

$26 an hour...says the economists who have never started or run a business, small or otherwise.
 
NatMorton said:
You're looking at this the wrong way. There is no single "value" for anything.

When you walk into a coffee shop, chances are you'd rather have a cup of coffee than the $2.50 in your pocket. Conversely, the coffee shop owner, having plenty of coffee on hand, would rather have your $2.50 than hold on to 16oz of his coffee. You value 16oz of coffee at $2.50, or more. He values 16oz of coffee at something less than $2.50, and presto, we have a transaction because you the the coffee shop owner place a different value on a single cup of coffee at that time and at that place.

If you walk into that shop and see 12oz of coffee at $25, you walk out. If you offer $0.25 for the coffee, you're asked to leave. That's how markets work. Each side needs to see enough value (not necessarily the same value) to engage in a voluntary transaction. If either side does not see value, then the transaction doesn't happen.

Back to the point, by artificially elevating the cost of labor, fewer employers will see value in higher priced, low skilled labor. This is fundamental, and there's no escaping it.
Click to expand...
You're assuming the value of the dollar is constant, but I completely understand what you're saying.

Now, understand what I'm saying.

If a business owner doesn't value the employee that does the most vital job in the company enough to offer rates high enough to entice employees to take and keep said job...

Then either the business owner sucks at their job, or they have a bad business model.
 
VanceMack said:
Predictably...it leads to MOAR increases....

cepr.net

CORRECTION: The $23 an Hour Minimum Wage - Center for Economic and Policy Research

The problem is that we have made many changes to the economy that shifted huge amounts of income upward, so that we cannot support a pay structure that gives workers at the bottom $52,000 a year. This is the whole point of my book, Rigged.
cepr.net cepr.net

$26 an hour...says the economists who have never started or run a business, small or otherwise.
Click to expand...

It’s almost as if CPI continues to increase.
 
NatMorton said:
Never said they don’t have jobs there. I said global companies actively seek not to create jobs there.
Click to expand...

Do you have any proof of this?
Google is building its first headquarters outside the US in a giant building in London and they could have chosen anywhere.
Why would they do that if they could have had cheaper workers elsewhere?
 
Redress said:
And again you are misrepresenting the facts. It is not the actual cost of labor, but that labor has cost. The machine in the OP will cost less than labor, even without a minimum wage. So your argument that raising minimum wages cause automation is just stupid. Automation will happen irregardless of minimum wage laws.
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No, it's not going to happen "irregardless." Automation is going to happen where it's cost effective to automate. Making that decision requires a business to solve a multi-variable equation, and one of those variables is labor cost. If you do not understand this then you simply don't understand how investment decisions are made.
 
Peter said:
Do you have any proof of this?
Google is building its first headquarters outside the US in a giant building in London and they could have chosen anywhere.
Why would they do that if they could have had cheaper workers elsewhere?
Click to expand...
Yes, I've literally made those decisions many times.
 
element94 said:
That, of course, is up to the employer to determine. People are starting to show an uprising against doing shit jobs for multi-billion dollar companies for no money. I'd even go as far to say there may a time coming soon where it will be impossible to fill some of these crap jobs that exist in such large numbers because many better paying jobs don't exist because they've been outsourced to other countries by companies, paying little tax, to maximize already hefty profits. The chickens have come home to roost.
Click to expand...
Exactly, it's to the employer and the employee to come to an agreement.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
When the minimum wage goes up, it wage goes up across the board eventually. So what you are saying is that you do not want a raise?

Or are you not in the workforce?
Click to expand...
I am in the workforce, and it's very unlikely a min wage increase will result in an increase to my compensation.
 
KevinKohler said:
You're assuming the value of the dollar is constant, but I completely understand what you're saying.

Now, understand what I'm saying.

If a business owner doesn't value the employee that does the most vital job in the company enough to offer rates high enough to entice employees to take and keep said job...

Then either the business owner sucks at their job, or they have a bad business model.
Click to expand...
And my point is that jacking up the min wage will make many viable business models today bad business models tomorrow. It's inevitable.
 
NatMorton said:
No, it's not going to happen "irregardless." Automation is going to happen where it's cost effective to automate. Making that decision requires a business to solve a multi-variable equation, and one of those variables is labor cost. If you do not understand this then you simply don't understand how investment decisions are made.
Click to expand...
History disagrees with you. You might learn some. Hint: Cotton Gin.
 
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