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When do we start to FIGHT BACK!!!!!

a surprise attack by a gunman with multiple weapons in the middle of a packed and darkened theater seems a suboptimal situation to fire back or to rush the gunman.
 
Wrong reference. I know Major Dorrie Carscaden, she definitely resisted as did others.

OK, two died trying to actively resist and one other was wounded trying to stop (slow?) the Fort Hood shooter, the balance of your 52 "heroes" were not mentioned at all. The point I am making is that a theater full of kids is not exactly the most likely place to find armed, trained resistance or to contain those able to physically over power an attacker, there is also NO loose furniture to toss, as was tried (but failed) at the Fort Hood shooting. Choosing to resist an armed attacker, WITHOUT being armed, is unlikely to stop the killing, but very likely to add yourself to the victim count while distracting the shooter for a few seconds. The 5 to 10 second interruption in target acquisition may have saved some potential victims, yet that is mostly speculation. What DID work, at Fort Hood, was armed resistance. The Fort Hood shooter has yet to stand trial, and is likely still getting military pay.
 
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Thunder, I would say it like so- it is very easy for those who never had to stand in front of an armed enemy, nor undergone the level of training required to have half a chance in hell of surviving to sit in a comfy chair and castigate others. you were too mild...

Lets examine some of the favorite horses those who puff their chests up at times like this enjoy dragging into discussions like this.

The old man and the punks-
There is a difference between waiting until the two ROBBERS turned away and then start shooting vs face to face with a mass MURDERER who has already decided he doesn't want your wallet. The robbers were two coyotes, opportunistic feeders, not looking for a gunfight. The mass murderer was a leopard lying in wait to make a lightening quick strike and was facing and killing from the git go....

Huge difference that the ill-informed always overlook.

Flight 92 vs react to ambush-

The folks on Flt92 did fight back, and they truly were heroic, after a delay where they learned what had happened to the other flights in NYC, had the opportunity to gather, discuss and ramp up there courage. Something a GI on a narrow jungle trail or the people in the theater are without. No chance to huddle and call friends out of danger and watching breaking news. No chance to huddle and come up with a plan of attack. No chance to give each other strength and unity.

If the patrol is EXTREMELY lucky the point man hears a metallic clack of an AK coming off safe or a the soft creak of webgear and without ANY thought he spins and sprays, the others either spray or toss frags depending on their stick number. This react is drilled for hours, each man in each different position, FYI the 'tail gunner' react is to run like the Devil himself is in hot pursuit away from the ambush on the faint hope he will make it back to a friendly unit.

Point is the couch commandos are clueless about what sudden, violent, deadly force does to even the semi-trained among us. think Ft. Hood. One thing to shoot at the backs of punk robbers, to face (after some time to hold a group conference) a choice between certain death and certain death vs hearing that metallic clack at night in a jungle or the first shot while far away from any war zone...

I don't mean to demean the CCW crowd, carry legally and enjoy your 2nd A right to carry, just realize the odds of using your carry weapon are greater than being attacked by an Australian Great White shark-

in Utah...

And those who think they would rush, unarmed, to the sound of the cannon are deluding themselves.
 

I agree with you about the theatre instance. My point was simply regarding the reference you chose. The wiki does not mention the others involved, like Dorrie, who rushed the shooter and stood between him and the wounded. Also want to dispute the point that soldiers at Fort Hood are likely to be armed. At a military base, weapons are kept in the armory and only allowed out for training and specific duty. The average duty soldier does not go around armed on a military base.
 
It was a crowded movie theatre, presumably somewhat dark inside, with a large armored lunatic shooting people at random . . .

The idea of most people not putting up a resistance has little to do with culture; it's more so about biology. It's called the fight-or-flight response, and in sudden and chaotic situations like this one, most people aren't going to just get up and heroically confront a dangerous person; rather the natural instinct for preservation of life/fear of death will either get them running, or they'll be too paralyzed with fear and/or confusion to move away or know exactly what to do.

Expecting people to just attack a fully armed murderer is nothing less of glorifying senseless bravado that will 9 times out of 10 result in people getting injured or killed.
 

No, it isn't senseless or bravado. It's an instinct which we have largely ignored to our detriment. I realize it's natural to panic and be afraid when things like this happen, but the instinct to fight needs to be reinstilled in us. It's what keeps the good guys alive, and makes the bad guys dead. Criminals and the insane thrive on the fears of the masses. The only way to combat it, is to get the fears under control, and stop automatically reacting by running.

It's like when I learned to scuba dive, which is a totally foreign activity for humans. The instinct is to panic and stay on top of the water, where you feel safe and comfortable. I had to learn to overcome my instincts and my fears, in order to master it.
 
This is nonsense. Attacking fully armed murderers is 9/10 just straight up stupid when you have a chance to get yourself out of the situation. Your advocating people do something unnecessary, that will threaten their survival in order to "keep the good guys alive" which doesn't make any sense. If you want to run up to some psycho with a gun in a movie theater when you have the chance to get out, have fun with that, but leave me out of it and preferably everybody else as well.
 

The people who took on the terrorists on that plane were able to make that decision for three reasons:

1) They had no choice, having literally nowhere to run
2) The terrorists weren't walking up and down the isles shooting people
3) The passengers had the opportunity to take stock of the situation before acting

The people in that theater were in the dark, taken completely by surprise, and being shot at. The scene was so unbelievable that at first they thought it was a stunt of some kind.

I'd like to see how you'd react when you're taken by surprise by a gunman in the dark while surrounded by terrified people, Rambo.
 
Two things to keep in mind. Firstly, the survival instinct in ALL animals is one of the strongest if not THE strongest instinct that we possess. It's usually completely instinctual and instantaneous that we will assess a situation and choose the path that most likely can lead to survival. Also, there are three possible responses to fear... the "3 F's": flight, fight, or freeze. This instinct is often built in to the individual and is person specific. It is affected by two other influences, however. The survival instinct and some training, though the training is secondary to the survival instinct and the fear reaction. The responses that those in the theater and in most other similar situations is not only common, but fits in with how people react instinctively. It has nothing to do with politics, the "softness" of society, or anything else. What happened on Flight 92 is rare and was most likely caused by the time that those folks had to process the situation. A presentation of an immediate danger would not allow that opportunity.
 


some old guy shot two mopes the other day. the only bad thing-he missed the head shots he tried
 


edify me on your training in this issue. I am seeing a lot of uneducated nonsense from you
 
edify me on your training in this issue. I am seeing a lot of uneducated nonsense from you
Edify me on why this post is based on an appeals to authority instead of an actual argument. I'm seeing a lot of wasting of my time from everything you've written.
 
some old guy shot two mopes the other day. the only bad thing-he missed the head shots he tried
Oh man. It's just TOO bad he didn't kill two guys when it wasn't necessary. What is the world coming too?
 
Edify me on why this post is based on an appeals to authority instead of an actual argument. I'm seeing a lot of wasting of my time from everything you've written.

I am asking you if you have had any training in this type of situation. You are spewing ignorance.
 
Oh man. It's just TOO bad he didn't kill two guys when it wasn't necessary. What is the world coming too?

Killing armed criminals is always the best solution because

1) it guarantees they will not hurt anyone else

2) it saves the taxpayers the cost of treating the wounded criminals and then trying them an incarcerating them

3) there is no possibility of them getting out and hurting others or seeking vengeance

4) it sends a better message to other cockroaches
 

There are precious few things I'm willing to risk my life for. Running unarmed up against a heavily armed gunman who is wearing body, groin, and throat armor all while being concealed by a smokescreen in the middle of a crowded, panicked theater all for a very very small chance of success is not one of those things.

The September 11th flight was completely different. They had time to fully gather the situation, work together, and literally had no other choice but to fight as there is no escape route on an airplane.
 

Fighting back involves a certain concept of self reliance, and organizing a random team. Neither of which is nurtured in our culture.
 

Exactly.

Which is why you arm yourself.
 
Exactly.

Which is why you arm yourself.

Of course, but Tigger was complaining about one of these people fighting back when the gunman appeared, and in this case as far as I know none of them were armed, probably because most of them were teenagers and because the movie theater is supposed to be a gun-free area. If I were in the same place as the moviegoers I would've done the same thing they did.
 

In a situation like this you aren't doing any calculations...people ran because they were terrified. A hero would have instantly seen that something needed to be done, and did it, without calculation, without regard to outcome. Someone may well have died trying to subdue the man, but that might have injured the shooter enough to let more people get free, or to have a few come to their senses and aid in subduing the shooter.

We lack courage because we deny the spirit, imo. We have learned to distrust our leaders, but haven't substituted them with other, more noble leaders. Thus, we lack the wherewithal to behave bravely in the face of long odds. Unless it personally profits us, **** it.
 

Correct, and having a gun in a movie theater doesn't mean theperson could have reacted well enough to save themselves of anyone else. These events will happen regardless of laws in any direction.
 




I've done in it real life bud. More than once, and I always move to "the sound of the guns" by instinct. My LT found that out the hard way one night when he tried to sneak up on me at my post... fortunately he lived. Maybe I was born with my fight-or-flight needle stuck on 'fight', but I've never understood people who freeze and cower and die like sheep. I feel sorry for them, but I don't understand them. They completely baffle me.
 

It's often a built in instinct. People who freeze or flee can't understand the fight attitude, either, and often feel sorry for THEM. None of those responses is "perfect" for all situations. Consider the situation with your LT. He might NOT have lived. Someone with a different instinct wouldn't have reacted that way.
 

Yes, I see the gun-free area as part of the thing that keeps us as a society from fighting back.
 
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