When Big Business Rolled Over For Fascism, And Cashed In (1 Viewer)

[aociswundumho]

Stalin had said he was fine sitting on the sideline while the capitalist states rip each other apart. Hitler always planned on invading the USSR.

It was a mutual beneficial deal while two dictators carved up Europe.

Yes, a mutual beneficial deal between two socialist states.

No, Marxism is an actual ideology with an economic and social underpinning.

1) Intentions and goals don't matter, only actions are what count.

2) Workers in the USSR were treated just as bad as they were in Nazi Germany. See my sig file.

3) No socialist state, including Nazi Germany, allowed independent labor unions. In both countries the unions became arms of the state. Tell me is this Hitler or Lenin:

In the present state of affairs I am convinced that we cannot possibly
dispense with the trades unions. On the contrary, they are among the
most important institutions in the economic life of the nation. Not only
are they important in the sphere of social policy but also, and even
more so, in the national political sphere. For when the great masses of
a nation see their vital needs satisfied through a just trade unionist
movement the stamina of the whole nation in its struggle for existence
will be enormously reinforced thereby.

Does that sound like someone on the political left or the political right?

Fascism is reactionary, anti-liberalism, anti-pluralism, anti-democracy with a heavy does of nationalism and a cult of personality around a demagogue.

That describes both Castro and Stalin. Both were nationalists, and Stalin was an imperialist to boot.

That's why it's difficult to create a clear definition of Fascism.

No, it isn't. It's only difficult for leftist trying to distance themselves from yet another mass murderer pushing left-wing collectivism.

And Hitler was a Nazi, not a fascist, as the latter is not inherently racist, while the former is predicated on racism.

It's core tenants along with nationalism is mainly anti-everything else. State control, oligarchy, they didn't care. Ultimately everything ran through Hitler and his vision of a white Christian nationalist Germany.

Wrong. The Hitler suppressed the church just like Lenin did.

Using this lazy definition, any dictatorship is communism. Secure property rights is something that you see in liberal democracies. Something the Nazi's opposed.

That's correct, and what do we call a society where the state does not recognize property rights?

 

[Lycanthrope]

Judge for yourself:



and

Economy of fascist Italy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your own citation refers to it as "Fascist Italy."

 

[iliveonramen]

Yes, a mutual beneficial deal between two socialist states.

Once again, neither one of the two would believe that or agree with that.

1) Intentions and goals don't matter, only actions are what count.

Yes it does matter.

2) Workers in the USSR were treated just as bad as they were in Nazi Germany. See my sig file.

Yes they were, and workers were treated pretty bad in the US before labor unions and legislation was passed during the progressive era. That doesn't mean Laissez Faire Gilded Age US was socialist. See why intentions and goals matter?

3) No socialist state, including Nazi Germany, allowed independent labor unions. In both countries the unions became arms of the state. Tell me is this Hitler or Lenin:

Sure, and they both leaned towards religion and nationalism to raise support for their country. They also both invaded their neighbors. I can give you a long list of where Monarchies/Fascists/Communist states overlap. That doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Does that sound like someone on the political left or the political right?

It sounds like a dictator using an existing organization to hold and maintain power.

That describes both Castro and Stalin. Both were nationalists, and Stalin was an imperialist to boot.

I think this is why you're confused. You think comparing government and ideologies is taking one sliver from one, one sliver from another and saying "see it matches! Same thing!"

No, it isn't. It's only difficult for leftist trying to distance themselves from yet another mass murderer pushing left-wing collectivism.

Is that what you really think? I'm debating politics/ideology because you're wrong. I don't give two shits what your overarching view of what left wing is.

And Hitler was a Nazi, not a fascist, as the latter is not inherently racist, while the former is predicated on racism.

Hitler was a fascist with his own brand of fascism.

Wrong. The Hitler suppressed the church just like Lenin did.

The church is not the same thing as religion. Stalin also leaned into the Orthodoxy church when invaded. Religion is a powerful means of controlling people. Dictators left or right use it.

That's correct, and what do we call a society where the state does not recognize property rights?

Dictatorship? Monarchy? Fascist? Communist? Tribal Despotism? I think a lot of bronze age rulers would have found it amusing that they were really communists because they didn't respect property rights.

 

[Tigerace117]

National socialism wasn't socialism. Read post 54 in this thread. Hitler discusses his brand of socialism.

Your claim is not even remotely true.

Hitler murdered every socialist he could catch, as previously mentioned. No “socialist” would ever align with the nobility, big business, and religious leaders in an explicitly described “crusade” against the Soviets.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I am not changing anything. I simply read the link you supplied.

Yes you attempted to change the argument, you tried to change "seized" from a pernament state to temporary to make your argument true.

I'll say it again, Alfred Krupp did not ultimately lose his assets as a result of his criminal activity that he profited from.

A court decided to return them.

That causes the injustice.

Now, to the comment that was made.

First, why was it an injustice?

Second, how would justice be served? Just seizing their assets? To what end?

I can't even begin to comprehend how a human being who knows about the inhumanity that the NAZI's practiced can sit there and type out drivel like that. Your argument is either completely ignorant or has purpose in defending NAZI's and their fellow travelers.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yes, a mutual beneficial deal between two socialist states.



1) Intentions and goals don't matter, only actions are what count.

2) Workers in the USSR were treated just as bad as they were in Nazi Germany. See my sig file.

3) No socialist state, including Nazi Germany, allowed independent labor unions. In both countries the unions became arms of the state. Tell me is this Hitler or Lenin:




Does that sound like someone on the political left or the political right?



That describes both Castro and Stalin. Both were nationalists, and Stalin was an imperialist to boot.



No, it isn't. It's only difficult for leftist trying to distance themselves from yet another mass murderer pushing left-wing collectivism.

And Hitler was a Nazi, not a fascist, as the latter is not inherently racist, while the former is predicated on racism.



Wrong. The Hitler suppressed the church just like Lenin did.



That's correct, and what do we call a society where the state does not recognize property rights?

No it wasn’t. The whole reason why it was such a shock to the world was the fact Hitler’s far right regime making a deal with the Soviets was something nobody expected given Germany’s actions the last five years.

George Orwell literally went to Spain to fight against the far right Catholic fundamentalists, monarchists and fascists the Germans were backing. Why wouldn’t they support the Republic if Hitler was a “socialist”, as you claim?

The right’s inability to face up to basic historical reality remains hilarious.

Hitler literally presented his war against the USSR as a religious crusade.

 

[aociswundumho]

Hitler murdered every socialist he could catch, as previously mentioned.

Wrong. He murdered Marxists, not socialists. Marxism isn't the only kind of socialism, there are many varieties. Non-marxist socialists were welcomed into the Nazi party:

Beefsteak Nazi (German: Rindersteak-Nazi),[1][2] or "Roast-beef Nazi", was a term used in Nazi Germany to describe anarchists, communists, socialists, and liberals who joined the Nazi Party. Munich-born American historian Konrad Heiden was one of the first to document this phenomenon in his 1936 book Hitler: A Biography, remarking that in the Sturmabteilung (Brownshirts, SA) ranks there were "large numbers of Communists and Social Democrats" and that "many of the storm troops were called 'beefsteaks' – brown outside and red within".[3] The switching of political parties was at times so common that SA men would jest that "n our storm troop there are three Nazis, but we shall soon have spewed them out".[3]

They joined because the main difference between the typical commie and the typical nazi was the nazi was a nationalist as well as a socialist. They both hated Jews. Even today, the modern left still hates Jews.

 

[Tigerace117]

Wrong. He murdered Marxists, not socialists. Marxism isn't the only kind of socialism, there are many varieties. Non-marxist socialists were welcomed into the Nazi party:



They joined because the main difference between the typical commie and the typical nazi was the nazi was a nationalist as well as a socialist. They both hated Jews. Even today, the modern left still hates Jews.

Which required them abandoning their left wing beliefs and joining the far right, yes. Much like Mussolini did when Italian socialists opposed Italy entering World War One.

Why would Hitler support the Spanish Nationalists and not the Republic if he was actually “socialist”?

Why would he actively align with Germany’s nobility, industrialists, and much of the clergy in his “crusade”?

 

[aociswundumho]

George Orwell literally went to Spain to fight against the far right Catholic fundamentalists, monarchists and fascists the Germans were backing.

Here's Orwell himself:

Until the signing of the Russo-German Pact, the assumption
made on both sides was that the Nazi régime was in no way
revolutionary. National Socialism was simply capitalism with the lid off,
Hitler was a dummy with Thyssen pulling the strings— that was the
official theory, proved in many a pamphlet by Mr John Strachey and
tacitly accepted by The Times. Blimps and Left Book Club members alike
swallowed it whole, both of them having, so to speak, a vested interest in
ignoring the real facts. Quite naturally the propertied classes wanted to
believe that Hitler would protect them against Bolshevism, and equally
naturally the Socialists hated having to admit that the man who had
slaughtered their comrades was a Socialist himself. Hence, on both sides,
the frantic efforts to explain away the more and more striking
resemblance between the German and Russian régimes. Then came the
eye-opener of the Hitler-Stalin pact. Suddenly the scum of the earth and
the blood-stained butcher of the workers (for so they had described one
another) were marching arm in arm, their friendship "cemented in
blood", as Stalin cheerily expressed it. Thereafter the Strachey-Blimp
thesis became untenable. National Socialism is a form of Socialism, is
emphatically revolutionary, does crush the property owner just as surely
as it crushes the worker.

 

[Tigerace117]

Here's Orwell himself:

Gee, still no answer I see.

Why would Hitler support the Spanish Nationalists and not the Republic if he was actually “socialist”?

Why would he actively align with Germany’s nobility, industrialists, and much of the clergy in his “crusade”?

 

[aociswundumho]

Which required them abandoning their left wing beliefs and joining the far right, yes.

Lol, that would be like me joining the Democratic Socialists of America.

Right in Mein Kampf Hitler states that the only real difference between Nazism and Marxism is that the Nazis are more racist:

The racial WELTANSCHAUUNG [worldview] is fundamentally distinguished from the
Marxist by reason of the fact that the former recognizes the
significance of race and therefore also personal worth and has made
these the pillars of its structure. These are the most important factors
of its WELTANSCHAUUNG.

If the National Socialist Movement should fail to understand the
fundamental importance of this essential principle, if it should merely
varnish the external appearance of the present State and adopt the
majority principle, it would really do nothing more than compete with
Marxism on its own ground.

 

[Tigerace117]

Lol, that would be like me joining the Democratic Socialists of America.

Right in Mein Kampf Hitler states that the only real difference between Nazism and Marxism is that the Nazis are more racist:

Gee dude, people’s beliefs change.

Still running from the questions I see.

Why would Hitler support the Spanish Nationalists and not the Republic if he was actually “socialist”?

Why would he actively align with Germany’s nobility, industrialists, and much of the clergy in his “crusade”?

 

[aociswundumho]

Why would Hitler support the Spanish Nationalists and not the Republic if he was actually “socialist”?

Because the Republic was Marxist, which meant Hitler viewed them as Bolsheviks.

Why didn't Hitler join the "right wing" Freikorps?

 

[aociswundumho]

Gee dude, people’s beliefs change.

Lol, isn't that convenient.

 

[Tigerace117]

Because the Republic was Marxist, which meant Hitler viewed them as Bolsheviks.

Why didn't Hitler join the "right wing" Freikorps?

And Hitler actively wanted to wipe out the “Bolsheviks”, like the rest of the far right he was a part of.

Which makes claims about him being “leftist” laughable.

 

[Tigerace117]

Lol, isn't that convenient.

It’s certainly convienent how you keep running from Hitler’s repeated alliances with monarchists, religious fundamentalists, aristocrats and industrialists.

You know, the type of people no socialist would ever willingly ally with.

 

[aociswundumho]

And Hitler actively wanted to wipe out the “Bolsheviks”, like the rest of the far right he was a part of.

The Mensheviks wanted to wipe out the Bolsheviks, does that make them right wing?

One thing we can observe from the 20th century is that leftists are violent and deranged people who will murder other leftists over trivial differences, e.g. Stalinist vs Trotskyists, SPD vs KPD, Maoists vs Soviets, and so on.

 

[aociswundumho]

It’s certainly convienent how you keep running from Hitler’s repeated alliances with monarchists, religious fundamentalists, aristocrats and industrialists.

Hitler had big plans, and he did whatever had to. Note that without public control over the German economy, he could never have accomplished all that he did in just six short years, starting with an economy in shambles.

You know, the type of people no socialist would ever willingly ally with.

You mean like Stalin allying with Hitler?

 

[Tigerace117]

The Mensheviks wanted to wipe out the Bolsheviks, does that make them right wing?

One thing we can observe from the 20th century is that leftists are violent and deranged people who will murder other leftists over trivial differences, e.g. Stalinist vs Trotskyists, SPD vs KPD, Maoists vs Soviets, and so on.

The Mensheviks didn’t want to murder or, at best, enslave every single leftist they encountered, so that comparison doesn’t even remotely hold up.

Gee, reminds me of the way American big business routinely murdered workers for trying to make their own lives less brutal.

 

[Tigerace117]

Hitler had big plans, and he did whatever had to. Note that without public control over the German economy, he could never have accomplished all that he did in just six short years, starting with an economy in shambles.




You mean like Stalin allying with Hitler?

Molotov Ribbentrop was hardly an “alliance”. Non aggression pacts are not even remotely the same thing.

Gee, funny how not a single actual leftist “did whatever they had to do.” It’s almost like Hitler’s actions were due to the fact he was on the far right.

Oh wait

 

[aociswundumho]

Gee, funny how not a single actual leftist “did whatever they had to do.” It’s almost like Hitler’s actions were due to the fact he was on the far right.

For the bazillionth time, Hitler wasn't Marxist. He saw, as any person with an above room temperature IQ could see, that murdering all of the capitalists means the economy goes down the shitter and nothing gets done. He saw what was happening in Russia and he was smart enough to understand just like modern progressives understand that the rotten state doesn't have to own an enterprise in order to control it via endless rules and regulations.

If you don't think the Nazis controlled the German economy, then explain how Hitler achieved so much in just six short years.

 

[Tigerace117]

For the bazillionth time, Hitler wasn't Marxist. He saw, as any person with an above room temperature IQ could see, that murdering all of the capitalists means the economy goes down the shitter and nothing gets done. He saw what was happening in Russia and he was smart enough to understand just like modern progressives understand that the rotten state doesn't have to own an enterprise in order to control it via endless rules and regulations.

If you don't think the Nazis controlled the German economy, then explain how Hitler achieved so much in just six short years.

Gee dude, he wasn’t even a leftist, as his policy of mass murdering every one of them he could catch shows quite clearly, as does his repeated alliances with aristocrats, industrialists, religious fundamentalists, and the far right across the globe.

As the actions of American big business prove, without the state stepping in, the people are viciously abused over, and over, and over again, because at a fundamental level many businesses are driven by blind greed. But I’m not surprised the guy complaining about the existence of freaking OHSA can’t face that.

 

[ConWolf]

I can't even begin to comprehend how a human being who knows about the inhumanity that the NAZI's practiced can sit there and type out drivel like that.

Asking questions is drivel. Got it.

That or you don't have answers.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Asking questions is drivel. Got it.

That or you don't have answers.

you continue to avoid my answers, you edit them out.

 

[ConWolf]

you continue to avoid my answers, you edit them out.

No, I left your comments out.

At the end of my post I asked two questions and got the rant I quoted.

I grow tired of your constantly framing things in whatever fantasy world you live in.

I appreciate certain mechanisms that message boards afford us for getting past that.