What's your attitude toward Islam ?

[cnredd]

teacher wrote...

When the US is out of Iraq and then Iraq is only attacked by Arabs not wanting the people there to decide their own future, which way will ME and world opinion turn?

C'mon teach! You know the answer....
Against America!

You are trying to talk to people who still believe its July 9th, 675 AD...

The Muslim community of 1 billion-plus has been globally embarrassed by a free and Democratic Israel, a country of less than 20 million, time and time again. Their ineptness reminds me of the Keystone Cops, but with no uniforms and less savvy.

As I've said earlier, a Muslim can't stub his toe on a rock without claiming a Zionist conspiracy. Whenever there is time to blame someone for the Muslim's poverty, despicable living conditions, economic downfall, humiliation, and free-thought suppression, the last place they look is to the man in the mirror....It's everyone else's fault...they're just poor, helpless victims.

It's OK to call America conceited, arrogant, greedy, and imperialists....Americans say something about someone else and WE said something wrong.

Now I will be insulted for what I've said...That's OK...They've been insulting me long before I've said this....

 

[Surenderer]

Teacher,
Well said...You could be right maybe the U.S. does want freedom for everybody......but my problem is that there are countries that were much worse off than Iraq was as far as human rights are concerned. Why not start there? Why does the U.S. only help where there is something personal to gain? Isn't the true sign of a humanitarian someone who helps people when they themselves have nothing to gain? Why do the very oppressive leaders that the U.S. is trying to ride the world off at one time were/are on the U.S. payroll? Weren't they Dictators and cruel then? When did the U.S. leave Kuwait? I was stationed there not long ago. Remember that the U.S. wanted to appoint someone to run Iraq not free elections....only Grand Ayatollah Sistani brought elections around in Iraq. I don't know but I just don't think you can bring Democracy around at the point of a gun without repercussions


peace to you

 

[Surenderer]

[/quote]Giving them the weapons was a mistake.[/QUOTE]




Arrogance:

n] overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors

 

[edb19]

There's no difference between Allah in Islam and The God in christianity..He's the same one god...It's just a linguistic difference...i.e. The word "Allah" in arabic language is composed of "Al" which means "The" and "elah" which means "God" so "Al" + "elah" = "Allah" = "The God" .

I've been staying out of this thread, but am not going to let this one slide.

Allah is not the God of the Bible. I worship and serve Yahweh, the true & Triune God. The God of Christianity is Father, Son & Holy Spirit - this is a revelational fact. Allah might well be the Muslim name for God, but he has been distorted into something else, the Muslim god is an idol and does not share the attributes of Yahweh.

'It is high time that Christians should rediscover
that the very heart of their faith is that Jesus
Christ did not come to make a contribution to the
religious storehouse of mankind, but that in him
God reconciled the world to Himself.'
Visser't Hooft

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Do you think Yahweh will send a man to hell who lived his life as a good man as well as a devout muslim? Just curious.

 

[Surenderer]

I've been staying out of this thread, but am not going to let this one slide.

Allah is not the God of the Bible. I worship and serve Yahweh, the true & Triune God. The God of Christianity is Father, Son & Holy Spirit - this is a revelational fact. Allah might well be the Muslim name for God, but he has been distorted into something else, the Muslim god is an idol and does not share the attributes of Yahweh.

'It is high time that Christians should rediscover
that the very heart of their faith is that Jesus
Christ did not come to make a contribution to the
religious storehouse of mankind, but that in him
God reconciled the world to Himself.'
Visser't Hooft

Yes what is the difference to you?

 

[edb19]

Do you think Yahweh will send a man to hell who lived his life as a good man as well as a devout muslim? Just curious.

I believe God is just and righteous and cannot abide the presence of sin. That same God tells us time and time again that no man will enter heaven on his own merit - there is none righteous, none who does good, none who keeps His law.

We (mankind) are justified (found not guilty) by grace (a gift of God) through faith (another gift of God) in Christ (who bore the wrath of God for the sins of man and in doing so redeemed us). We are saved from God by God for the glory of God.

As a created being I would no more say who will be in heaven than I would say who will be in hell. But, yes - God (Yahweh) has that capability and that right and yes, He chooses who He will redeem.

 

[cnredd]

Do you think Yahweh will send a man to hell who lived his life as a good man as well as a devout muslim? Just curious.

Nope...I think he'll take a good Muslim into heaven over a bad Jew or Christian every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

but my problem is that there are countries that were much worse off than Iraq was as far as human rights are concerned. Why not start there?

Strictly an opinion...If we go after North Korea tomorrow, there will be critics who say "Why not Iran?"...If we go after Iran, there will be critics who say "Why not Syria"...and so on; and so on; and so on...

And why is America, notoriously criticized for "sticking their nose" into other people's business, supposed to carry the torch for human rights? Everyone looks to the US to do something, but when we do it, we get crapped on?

Here's my question to your question...If human rights are worse off in other places, why aren't you suggesting France jump in? Their army has been pretty idle the last 60 years. China has the world's largest army....why haven't you criticized them for not helping out in Sudan, Rwanda, or any other place you feel that the Americans are needed? Have you asked Iran and North Korea to help in Africa? Or is it only the USA that has to come to the rescue?

Why is America held to unachievable high standards while most, if not all, other countries get a free pass?

 

[Surenderer]

Nope...I think he'll take a good Muslim into heaven over a bad Jew or Christian every day of the week and twice on Sunday.



Strictly an opinion...If we go after North Korea tomorrow, there will be critics who say "Why not Iran?"...If we go after Iran, there will be critics who say "Why not Syria"...and so on; and so on; and so on...

And why is America, notoriously criticized for "sticking their nose" into other people's business, supposed to carry the torch for human rights? Everyone looks to the US to do something, but when we do it, we get crapped on?

Here's my question to your question...If human rights are worse off in other places, why aren't you suggesting France jump in? Their army has been pretty idle the last 60 years. China has the world's largest army....why haven't you criticized them for not helping out in Sudan, Rwanda, or any other place you feel that the Americans are needed? Have you asked Iran and North Korea to help in Africa? Or is it only the USA that has to come to the rescue?

Why is America held to unachievable high standards while most, if not all, other countries get a free pass?

Well I don't care who would help Rwanda or Sudan or whomever....I just wish someone would......However the U.S. spends more in it's military budget than the next 5 Industrial Nations combined.....it also has the money and the power to help alot easier also, plus the fact that the U.S. says they will spread Democracy and human rights abroad....As far as I know France or N.Korea or Iran don't make these claims


http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/WatWTable1.html

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/WatWTable2.html

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/WatWTable3.html

That chart shows why the U.S. is accused of sticking it's nose in other countries business and thus creating unstable regions


peace to you

 

[cnredd]

If you were to go directly by that chart...I would probably agree with you...

But two problems...

1)No charts on the other countries?...eerily silent...

2)These numbers were taken directly from the USA itself, which has a transparent & open policy when it comes to these records.

You could show me records that France might SHOW you, but they WON'T show the "under the table" deals made with Iraq WHILE UN SANCTIONS WERE IN PLACE.

Russia is the world's leader in the weapons black market.

North Korea sells its weapons technology and then starves its own people.

Israel stops a ship loaded with 50 tons of weapons in the Mediterranean Sea destined for the Palestinians that came from Iran.

Our numbers are huge...That sounds logical...Our economy is huge...But the numbers are also honest. When you add up the dishonesty and selfishness of other countries, the US wouldn't seem as bad...But; once again, the world turns a blind eye.

 

[cnredd]

However the U.S. spends more in it's military budget than the next 5 Industrial Nations combined

Most places where there are US military installations are...

A)asked to be there.
B)increasing the local economy.
C)defending the country from neighbors.

Are you going to sit there and HONESTLY tell me that if the US never had bases and troops at the 39th parallel in South Korea that North Korea wouldn't have run right in and took over the country in about 20 minutes?

Here's the overall picture....

If the US did nothing....ever...Close your eyes and think what the world would look like....Communism still thriving...Germany owning all of Europe...since there would be no other states in Europe clamoring for human rights, South Africa would still have apartheid...There would be no aid going anywhere...China would march all over Asia...etc., etc., etc....oh yeah....The USA wouldn't exist.

Its very arrogant for the world community to "pick and choose" where America is to use its "superpower" status. Especially when most countries want us to do their bidding for their own purposes...the same thing America get accused of everyday.

 

[teacher]

Thank you Teacher .

But i wonder why i'm nasty though you'd asked me the same questions and my replies were the same as Surenderer's . I think because i confuted you ruthlessly while my brother Surenderer was merciful with you .

You can't denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN. Think what you want, I could care less what someone who can't put politics aside and denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN thinks. Hear that noise Aleem? It's M1 Abrams pushing freedom your way.

 

[cnredd]

Surenderer didn't denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN either, teach...

Here's his quote...

Of course the deaths of anyone innocent person...not just children is a tragedy.

This could be interpreted as "necessary" tragedy. His sentence has left a wide-open window to say something like;

Of course the deaths of anyone innocent person...not just children is a tragedy...but that is just the price that must be paid in the massive jihad that must be waged against the Zionist pigs and the American infidels.

I still haven't heard the phrase "I denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN in war, jihad, or any other conflict, including my fellow Muslims."

That would sway me.

 

[teacher]

Teacher,
Well said...You could be right maybe the U.S. does want freedom for everybody......but my problem is that there are countries that were much worse off than Iraq was as far as human rights are concerned.

Let's be honest here bro. As much as the US does for the world we still also look out for ourselves. If 9/11 never happened we would never be in Iraq. Not because Iraq had anything to do with it but for the reasons of changing (freeing) that whole part of the world. We can never kill all the terrorists. We have to improve the quality of life in those countries. We need them watching international news, not just Al Jezeera, and the local Mullahs and Madrasses. What we do there is try to change the whole region to prevent another 9/11, which one day will be with a nuke. That's why I don't care what the rest of the world thinks about us. One day the terrorists will get nukes. Then instead of 3000 dead it will be millions. What we do today is for the future. We have to spread democracy so that the poeple there have the freedom to look after themselves.

Why not start there? Why does the U.S. only help where there is something personal to gain?

Oh bullshit. How much does the US help around the world. Foriegn aid. The CDC. Red Cross. Savlation Army. Unicef. Thousands of private charities and donations. Religious backed missions. Look what we did for the tsunami victums. The Turkish earthquake victums. Our biologists develope drought and diseise resistant strains of crops. Our satilittes in space map areas and use that infomation to advance crops, weather prediction, a whole slew of scientific research. I can't even believe you said that. Seriously, do you think that or is it a ploy to advance you argument? Your talking to teacher here. Cheap word games and untrue facts don't work with me. My brain is giant. You said before you only speak the truth. So I take you at your word and assume you don't know these things or forgot. We are the most charitable nation of Earth. And don't just count cash sent as a percentage of GDP. What we spend on the military alone protecting other countries (Europe from the CCCP alone is mindboggleing). We pay for 70% of NATO. That's not for us.

Isn't the true sign of a humanitarian someone who helps people when themselves have nothing to gain?

See above.

Why do the very oppressive leaders that the U.S. is trying to ride the world off at one time were/are on the U.S. payroll?

We made mistakes. At least we are correcting them.

Weren't they Dictators and cruel then? When did the U.S. leave Kuwait? I was stationed there not long ago.

A base does not mean we control the contry.

I don't know but I just don't think you can bring Democracy around at the point of a gun without repercussions

Who said there would be no repercussions? Our sons and daughters VOLENTEER, putting their lives on the line. Yea, we understand repercussions. Do you?

peace to you

Back at you bro. Just think harder before you reply to me. I enjoyed our previous discourse. I learned stuff. This one was just correcting facts.

 

[teacher]

Surenderer didn't denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN either, teach...

I still haven't heard the phrase "I denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN in war, jihad, or any other conflict, including my fellow Muslims."

That would sway me

I know bro, baby steps. It's the best I've seen so far and I've been hammering this point since I joined this site. So tines you have to draw it out of them bit by bit. Surrenderer shows promise. But then he is not an Arab.

 

[teacher]

And really surrenderer, how do you spread democracy in a country that the minority keep the majority in line with guns and denying freedom of the press and has no elections. By saying please?

 

[edb19]

Why does the U.S. only help where there is something personal to gain? Isn't the true sign of a humanitarian someone who helps people when they themselves have nothing to gain?

'Estimated charitable giving reached $248.52 billion for 2004, a new record for philanthropic giving in the United States, the Giving USA Foundation announced on Monday.' June 14, 2005


When it comes to charitable giving, Americans are the most generous people in the world. We're talking individuals here - this is aside from what the US government spends giving to those in need. Just this week at the G8 summit the leaders agreed to increase annual aid to Africa and to cancel the debt for the world's 18 poorest nations. They also agreed to financial aid for Palestine. Then there's the $350 million pledged for Tsunami aid.

Nothing personal to gain in any of these things. We do it because it's the right thing to do.

 

[Surenderer]

Surenderer didn't denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN either, teach...

Here's his quote...



This could be interpreted as "necessary" tragedy. His sentence has left a wide-open window to say something like;

Of course the deaths of anyone innocent person...not just children is a tragedy...but that is just the price that must be paid in the massive jihad that must be waged against the Zionist pigs and the American infidels.

I still haven't heard the phrase "I denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN in war, jihad, or any other conflict, including my fellow Muslims."

That would sway me.

Cute little :spin: on what I said....Only an idiot doesn't know that if I say that the deaths of any innocent person is a tragedy then naturally that would mean kids too. I don't denounce all conflicts......sometimes war is necessary however I do only believe in Wars of self defense.....any war outside of that is unjust no matter who starts it.....Muslim, Jew or otherwise

 

[Surenderer]

Let's be honest here bro. As much as the US does for the world we still also look out for ourselves. If 9/11 never happened we would never be in Iraq. Not because Iraq had anything to do with it but for the reasons of changing (freeing) that whole part of the world. We can never kill all the terrorists. We have to improve the quality of life in those countries. We need them watching international news, not just Al Jezeera, and the local Mullahs and Madrasses. What we do there is try to change the whole region to prevent another 9/11, which one day will be with a nuke. That's why I don't care what the rest of the world thinks about us. One day the terrorists will get nukes. Then instead of 3000 dead it will be millions. What we do today is for the future. We have to spread democracy so that the poeple there have the freedom to look after themselves.

Oh bullshit. How much does the US help around the world. Foriegn aid. The CDC. Red Cross. Savlation Army. Unicef. Thousands of private charities and donations. Religious backed missions. Look what we did for the tsunami victums. The Turkish earthquake victums. Our biologists develope drought and diseise resistant strains of crops. Our satilittes in space map areas and use that infomation to advance crops, weather prediction, a whole slew of scientific research. I can't even believe you said that. Seriously, do you think that or is it a ploy to advance you argument? Your talking to teacher here. Cheap word games and untrue facts don't work with me. My brain is giant. You said before you only speak the truth. So I take you at your word and assume you don't know these things or forgot. We are the most charitable nation of Earth. And don't just count cash sent as a percentage of GDP. What we spend on the military alone protecting other countries (Europe from the CCCP alone is mindboggleing). We pay for 70% of NATO. That's not for us.






See above.



We made mistakes. At least we are correcting them.

A base does not mean we control the contry.



Who said there would be no repercussions? Our sons and daughters VOLENTEER, putting their lives on the line. Yea, we understand repercussions. Do you?



Back at you bro. Just think harder before you reply to me. I enjoyed our previous discourse. I learned stuff. This one was just correcting facts.

Let's be honest here bro. As much as the US does for the world we still also look out for ourselves. If 9/11 never happened we would never be in Iraq. Not because Iraq had anything to do with it but for the reasons of changing (freeing) that whole part of the world. We can never kill all the terrorists. We have to improve the quality of life in those countries. We need them watching international news, not just Al Jezeera, and the local Mullahs and Madrasses. What we do there is try to change the whole region to prevent another 9/11, which one day will be with a nuke. That's why I don't care what the rest of the world thinks about us. One day the terrorists will get nukes. Then instead of 3000 dead it will be millions. What we do today is for the future. We have to spread democracy so that the poeple there have the freedom to look after themselves.

If you wanna free that part of the world then we (talking about the U.S. cause I', American also) need to stop trading one dictator for another.....Sure we got rid of Saddam but we picked up General Musharraf (pakistian)..... after all Pakistan remains a military dictatorship in all but name. Then we dont even have to go into the House of Saud. I do agree that the quality of life needs to improve in those countries and that thinking has to change.....but every Arab Muslim doesnt hate America.....I know you may not believe this but it's true.....but dont insult my intelligence by saying that the U.S. is misunderstood.....they are understood very well by the rest of the world. You ask how much the U.S. pays in foreign aid around the world? about .79% of it's GNP....which is last among the world's wealthest countries As a percentage of GNP, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001—almost a third of what America contributed.....nothing to brag about

We pay for 70% of NATO. That's not for us.

How much in dues do we owe the U.N. teacher?

Who said there would be no repercussions? Our sons and daughters VOLENTEER, putting their lives on the line. Yea, we understand repercussions. Do you

Dang whats up with the attitude?....I served for years in the military and was in the 1st Gulf War....front lines......so yes I do

Just think harder before you reply to me

Now back at you bro

 

[cnredd]

This is what I wrote about what I want to see from Surenderer...

I still haven't heard the phrase "I denounce the TARGETING OF CHILDREN in war, jihad, or any other conflict, including my fellow Muslims."

That would sway me.

This was his response...

Cute little on what I said....Only an idiot doesn't know that if I say that the deaths of any innocent person is a tragedy then naturally that would mean kids too. I don't denounce all conflicts......sometimes war is necessary however I do only believe in Wars of self defense.....any war outside of that is unjust no matter who starts it.....Muslim, Jew or otherwise

in his best Sam Kinison voice...SAY IT!.......SAAAAYYYY IIIITTTTTT!

 

[cnredd]

Surenderer wrote...

sometimes war is necessary however I do only believe in Wars of self defense

In EVERY war there has to be someone in self-defense!

So you only think war is just when there are no aggressors?

I GOTTA see an example of this....

 

[akyron]

Even if the reason is your barbaric behaviour against me ? Your barbaric behaviour is acceptable and mine is not ? What a rotten mind .


Man, I get yelled at and gaveled when I say these things. And Aleems not even trying to be funny.

You need to declare it your religious right and the therapists and apologists with come out of the woodwork to support you.

 

[Surenderer]

Surenderer wrote...



In EVERY war there has to be someone in self-defense!

So you only think war is just when there are no aggressors?

I GOTTA see an example of this....

Hmm....think about that......If there were no aggressors there would be no wars.....interesting concept huh?

 

[Surenderer]

in his best Sam Kinison voice...SAY IT!.......SAAAAYYYY IIIITTTTTT!

[/QUOTE]




:rofl .....pretty funny.......I Surenderer(with hand on heart) denounce the killings of anyone innocent....whether they be children Jew,Muslim,Wiccan, Atheist etc......it's not for me to judge.......only the Creator......now that being said do you denounce the killings on innocent children by sanctions imposed on Iraq?

 

[Pacridge]

Surenderer wrote...



In EVERY war there has to be someone in self-defense!

So you only think war is just when there are no aggressors?

I GOTTA see an example of this....

I believe that means he thinks only the party (nation) engaging in war as self defense is justified. Someone has to be the offender. Someone has to be the defender. Right?