What practical solutions can "antiwar" proponents offer?

[Questerr]

too late for that. just like the yellow ribbons before the Iraq invasion -either you support endless escalation
or you are some kind of Putin asset .such are the "choices

Except you openly advocate for the pro-Putin position.

 

[anatta]

That's a lie, and has been for a while. If you couldn't figure that out after Libya, then you'll never figure it out.

SIDEBAR: Russia stayed out of the Libya regime change that turned Libya into a failed terrorist ridden state with open slave markets

 

[Fledermaus]

I "propose" that the folks in Ukraine will have to deal with the defense of their country. I dont care about Ukraine. Not really. Nobody in the USA does.
The sanctimonious folk in the USA really make me want to vomit, what with all the warmongering the USA does.

A rather blatant lie.

 

[anatta]

Except you openly advocate for the pro-Putin position.

not at all. but your braian is only accepting binary choices

 

[Questerr]

Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini, Stalin and Putin approve of this message.

Napoleon, half the Ottoman sultans, Victoria, Bismarck…

The list goes on and on.

 

[Fledermaus]

not at all. but your braian is only accepting binary choices

You have repeatedly mouthed Putin approved talking points. Why?

 

[Questerr]

not at all. but your braian is only accepting binary choices

Yes or no: do you support Ukraine surrendering to Russian demands?

 

[Fishking]

It's true that the expansion of NATO puts Russia at a disadvantage in a geopolitical sense, but Russia does not have any right to have any sort of geopolitical advantage, to begin with. Neither Ukraine nor NATO has any obligation to placate Russia's geopolitical concerns.

OK...so you prefer war. Got it.

Have you consulted with the countries neighboring Russia about your intent to give Russia de facto control over their economic, political, trade, and foreign policies?

That's a big ask.

Apparently you read the words, but didn't care to understand them. Russia wouldn't "de facto" control them as the treaty specifically would be neutral, so you went with making shit up.

Face it, you don't care if war happens and you don't care about real diplomatic solutions.

 

[Fishking]

SIDEBAR: Russia stayed out of the Libya regime change that turned Libya into a failed terrorist ridden state with open slave markets

There is a Libya still? I don't think it can even be considered a country at this point.

 

[Antiwar]

The kicker is that they're pro-war because there's a Democratic president. They're partisan hacks, and cheerleaders for stupidity.

 

[Questerr]

The kicker is that they're pro-war because there's a Democratic president. They're partisan hacks, and cheerleaders for stupidity.

Except the Left has supported Ukraine for years. Trump was the one who tried to block Ukraine aid for his own political benefit.

Just another thing to add to the list of stuff you lie about.

 

[Deuce]

"There's no peace process."

You should see a proctologist about that hacking cough.

In this scenario, peace isn't a process. It's a binary. Russia is a hostile occupying force. They are the aggressor. They are the reason peace doesn't exist. They can return to peace at any time, just by walking away. Ukraine cannot create peace in this same fashion, they don't get to choose whether or not Russia continues their assault.

If you have alternatives, name one. You want peace talks? Name one thing that there is to talk about other than "are Russian soldiers still shooting Ukrainians?"

 

[Shrink726]

In this scenario, peace isn't a process. It's a binary. Russia is a hostile occupying force. They are the aggressor. They are the reason peace doesn't exist. They can return to peace at any time, just by walking away. Ukraine cannot create peace in this same fashion, they don't get to choose whether or not Russia continues their assault.

If you have alternatives, name one. You want peace talks? Name one thing that there is to talk about other than "are Russian soldiers still shooting Ukrainians?"

Well said.

 

[Cardinal]

OK...so you prefer war. Got it.

Apparently you read the words, but didn't care to understand them. Russia wouldn't "de facto" control them as the treaty specifically would be neutral, so you went with making shit up.

Face it, you don't care if war happens and you don't care about real diplomatic solutions.

What diplomatic solutions? Russia wants to take over a sovereign country and they're not taking no for an answer.

 

[anatta]

There is a Libya still? I don't think it can even be considered a country at this point.

There are periodic spasms of attempts towards a "unity "government. The war was the most high tech until Ukraine.
Outsiders like Turkey,Russia,Egypt and Qatar back the factions .the oil flows and is then interrupted

Libya used to have one of the highest standards of living in Africa -now it's a basket case

 

[W_Heisenberg]

OK...so you prefer war. Got it.

We have no obligation to improve or maintain Russia's geopolitical interests.

None.

Russia, however, does have the obligation to not invade its neighbors. The reluctance of Russia's neighbors to do what Russia wants is not a legitimate justification for war. Case closed. End of story.

Our message to Putin if he doesn't like NATO expansion should be simply this: tough shit.

And if Putin is upset that countries like Ukraine want to form closer economic, political, legal, and military arrangements with other countries, maybe Putin should stop being asshole about everything and offer a better deal?

Apparently you read the words, but didn't care to understand them. Russia wouldn't "de facto" control them as the treaty specifically would be neutral, so you went with making shit up.

Has it occurred to you that these countries may not want to be neutral? And if Russia is the one deciding that these countries be neutral it's Russia that has a veto over the economic, political, military, and foreign policies of these various countries?

Face it, you don't care if war happens and you don't care about real diplomatic solutions.

What you describe as "real diplomatic solutions" is really nothing more than the appeasement of a dictator hell-bent on acquiring the territory of neighboring countries. And this doesn't stop with Ukraine just like it didn't stop Crimea. Putin will just keep pushing and pushing until he has rebuilt a system similar to what the Soviets had in place. We should work with Russia to resolve this situation, but Russia's current demands are totally unreasonable. I don't think we should surrender Ukraine to Putin's demands.

Peace on Russia's terms in this case means that we allow Ukraine to be conquered or controlled by Russia. Have you spoken when the Ukrainians about your plans to throw them to the wolves? Have you considered that maybe they don't want to be under Putin's thumb? Have you considered that maybe they want to maintain their territory and not give it up because Putin demands it?

You think to avoid war we should allow Ukraine to be conquered or controlled by Russia. But that does not sound reasonable to me.

What if Russia was trying to conquer or control our country? Would you advocate simply surrendering to Putin's demands?

Why would you ask that of the Ukrainians?

 

[Tigerace117]

The comparison of Putin and his aggression to Hitler circa 1936 is most certainly NOT an overreach. If you don't see the existential threat to peace and order in the world posed by Putin you sincerely have your head inserted up your ass. This madman MUST be stopped. Exactly like Hitler.

Not even close to being equivalent to Hitler.

Little different, in fact, than past US backed invasions like Iraq’s invasion of Iran or Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor.

 

[Tigerace117]

If Iraq wants those unarmed trainers out of their country, they can frog march them onto a plane at any point and there is nothing the US could do about it.

There would be widespread screams for US bombs to be dropping on Baghdad within forty eight hours if they humiliated the US like that.

 

[anatta]

Yes or no: do you support Ukraine surrendering to Russian demands?

like i said you are stuck with 2 choices.vvPeace is a process, it starts with talks that might not even produce anything.
But like that move Analyze This is famous for saying -"it's a process"

 

[W_Heisenberg]

In this scenario, peace isn't a process. It's a binary. Russia is a hostile occupying force. They are the aggressor. They are the reason peace doesn't exist. They can return to peace at any time, just by walking away. Ukraine cannot create peace in this same fashion, they don't get to choose whether or not Russia continues their assault.

If you have alternatives, name one. You want peace talks? Name one thing that there is to talk about other than "are Russian soldiers still shooting Ukrainians?"

Great post. Well written.

 

[Deuce]

like i said you are stuck with 2 choices.vvPeace is a process, it starts with talks that might not even produce anything.
But like that move Analyze This is famous for saying -"it's a process"

I will ask the same question the other guy refuses to answer:

What is there to talk about other than "Are Russian soldiers still shooting Ukrainians?"

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Waste of time, you are arguing with someone who thinks "peace, love and understanding" solves everything as if those like Putin, or Jinping, or Jong-un, or just about any theocratic Middle East or African nation will all of a sudden agree and be nice people.

The only offering is an extremely narrowminded view of passive retreat as if that saves the first life.

Agreed.

 

[Shrink726]

Not even close to being equivalent to Hitler.

Little different, in fact, than past US backed invasions like Iraq’s invasion of Iran or Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor.

No.

 

[Antiwar]

I will ask the same question the other guy refuses to answer:

What is there to talk about other than "Are Russian soldiers still shooting Ukrainians?"

I've answered similar questions several times. The people asking those questions are trolling, and they continue trolling.

You're for the war process.

 

[anatta]

We have no obligation to improve or maintain Russia's geopolitical interests.
None.

this is the same arrogance of NATO expansion/Ukraine militarization that got us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia
Your way of treating Russia as a non-legitimate security needs has been an utter failure