What lessons can Canada teach America about deadly gun violence?

[Hafnium1979]

That’s a dumb statement. It’s like saying having more hammers results in more hammer related injuries.

It is a stochastic process. Only in the case of guns the ONLY reason for a gun is to harm or damage a life.

If you increase the number of hammers in society you will not necessarily increase the number of hammer-related mass murders.

The problem is that more guns DOES NOT result in more violent crime.

Except that the studies show that they DO.

 

[Crovax]

I could do the homework for you, but I have participated in a lot of gun debates and they go nowhere.
I could post DATA, real data, that clearly shows that countries, like Canada, with stricter gun laws and requirements, have far fewer gun deaths per capita.
I could post DATA, real data, that clearly shows that states that institute stricter requirements to own guns have lower RATES of gun violence and that the largest % of gun violence in those gun tight states are due to purchases made OUT OF STATE from states with relaxed gun purchasing laws.

I have been participating on discussion forums for years, knocking myself silly posting data, charts, statistics, and always the rebuttal has been, BUT....
But the 2nd amendment, But my rights, But no one gonna take my guns (no liberal ever said they would unless you shouldn't have one), but but but.

The unique thing about the U.S. is how easily so many gun owners have bought into whatever the NRA has told them, sort of like Trumpers that way, whatever Trump says (no matter how wrong he is) is believed, no questions asked.

SO, no, I don't intend to go back n forth with you all day long, because I KNOW and YOU KNOW that you are wrong. AND I KNOW now matter what I posted you would have a "but" .......... so I am out of this conversation because a conversation requires both parties to have some common agreement, and we don't.

You can not compare other countries to the US because there are so many other factors that are more prominent. You can however compare US states and there you will find no correlation between gun laws and murder per capita.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

You can not compare other countries to the US because there are so many other factors that are more prominent. You can however compare US states and there you will find no correlation between gun laws and murder per capita.

READ!!!

gun deaths are significantly lower in states with strict gun laws and low gun ownership.

Strictest Gun Laws by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

READ ALL OF IT!

 

[Luce]

Interesting article that details some of the processes Canada has in place to prevent gun violence. The article recognizes that Canada is different - we don't have a 2nd Amendment for example. But it's worth looking at some of the laws Canada has that would probably not violate the 2A and do seem to work.



Link

I thought this was a thread teaching us how to be more violent.

1/10, thread does not deliver.

 

[ttwtt78640]

That is actually mentioned in the link in the OP.
Gun rights, as per the constitution, is still interpretive, and not absolute, if it was absolute, someone could own a bazooka and claim it is "arms".
Restrictions on "rights" already exist, like felons, so why not more stringent restrictions on people with a history of violent abuse not owning guns, why not mandatory safety training (like they have in Canada), mandatory training doesn't go against the 2nd amendment.
There is also the subconscious culture, that in the U.S. guns are a sign of manhood and independence, as if people without guns aren't "men" or "independence."
There are ways to curb access to certain weapons and who has access, but the NRA has EVERYONE convinced Liberals want to take your guns away.
Yet none of the people who spout that mantra can actually point to one Liberal policy that would take your gun away if you are a law abiding citizen and are properly licensed.

That (bolded above) assertion ignores calls for banning (making their sales and/or possession illegal) “assault” rifles and/or “high capacity” magazines. The acceptable method for removing an individual’s Constitutional right(s) involves the use of due process (i.e. without conviction or adjudication then no sentence may be imposed). That is an important distinction between an individual Constitutional right and a mere state issued privilege.

 

[SMTA]

Interesting article that details some of the processes Canada has in place to prevent gun violence. The article recognizes that Canada is different - we don't have a 2nd Amendment for example. But it's worth looking at some of the laws Canada has that would probably not violate the 2A and do seem to work.



Link

Shootings in a Canada are rare because Canadians are nice people.
Americans, OTOH, are assholes.

 

[Luce]

READ!!!

gun deaths are significantly lower in states with strict gun laws and low gun ownership.

Strictest Gun Laws by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

READ ALL OF IT!

View attachment 67341635

You're missing one critical point, though.

America likes it like this. Meaningless deaths in the mass shooting of the week is how we get our validation.

 

[Rucker61]

I could do the homework for you, but I have participated in a lot of gun debates and they go nowhere.

Yet here we all are. For the record, I agree with you that gun debates go nowhere.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

You're missing one critical point, though.

America likes it like this. Meaningless deaths in the mass shooting of the week is how we get our validation.

I can think of other ways to validate my manhood.
Guns, big trucks, big meals, volumes of alcohol, how loud I can be at sporting events, none of those make me feel manly.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Shootings in a Canada are rare because Canadians are nice people.
Americans, OTOH, are assholes.

well NOT all Americans, just certain ones.
and we do have a few assholes in Canada, just a "few" though

 

[Luce]

I can think of other ways to validate my manhood.
Guns, big trucks, big meals, volumes of alcohol, how loud I can be at sporting events, none of those make me feel manly.

Not validate our manhood. Validate our existence.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

So what is Canada doing correctly then? Why is Canada different from the US?

the answer is in the "Link" Allan provided in his OP.

 

[Rucker61]

Apparently they never got to the levels that we got so they didn't have to.

Then it's not part of the this topic, is it?

You CANNOT say that. You can only say that they are related in some way. You CANNOT dismiss the possibility of them being causally related.

OK, not a "proven causal effect".

Number of guns/population = gun ownership rates.

Yet you keep clamoring for "massively decreasing the amount of guns available in the system." If it's the gun ownership rate is that the factor, you should be driving for reducing the number of gun owners.

 

[Hafnium1979]

You can not compare other countries to the US

You hear this a lot. Of course it is irrational and utterly wrong, but you DO hear it a lot. Especially from people who are afraid of comparing the US to other developed nations.

because there are so many other factors that are more prominent.

...such as? Oh, I know, America's Constitution gives us RIGHTS and that renders it impossible to compare the US to anywhere else on earth because no one is as "free" as Americans.

You can however compare US states and there you will find no correlation between gun laws and murder per capita.

That's a poor indicator because guns can easily travel across state lines etc. I love how you guys require SO MUCH special pleading and super-complex comparisons just so you can find a signal in the data you like.

Unfortunately this isn't how science is done.

 

[Crovax]

It is a stochastic process. Only in the case of guns the ONLY reason for a gun is to harm or damage a life.

If you increase the number of hammers in society you will not necessarily increase the number of hammer-related mass murders.

Except that the studies show that they DO.

READ!!!

gun deaths are significantly lower in states with strict gun laws and low gun ownership.

Strictest Gun Laws by State 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

READ ALL OF IT!

View attachment 67341635

Did you read it? I know you didn’t. it is comparing gun laws and GUN murders not gun laws and ALL murders.

When you compare gun laws vs all murders per capita you see no correlation which is why the anti gun lobby crates a misleading statistic. It take simple ignorant folk like yourself and turn you into a rabid anti gun activist

 

[Hafnium1979]

Yet you keep clamoring for "massively decreasing the amount of guns available in the system."

...as one does when data shows that increased gun ownership is a predictor of gun violence. AND given the fact that America has the highest GUN OWNERSHIP rates and the highest gun homicide rates of the developed world.

If it's the gun ownership rate is that the factor, you should be driving for reducing the number of gun owners.

Pretty much the same thing.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

That (bolded above) assertion ignores calls for banning (making their sales and/or possession illegal) “assault” rifles and/or “high capacity” magazines. The acceptable method for removing an individual’s Constitutional right(s) involves the use of due process (i.e. without conviction or adjudication then no sentence may be imposed). That is an important distinction between an individual Constitutional right and a mere state issued privilege.

so you CAN own a bazooka?
again, no "rights" are absolute, even us lowly Canadians know that.
same with the mantra "1st Amendment" try yelling fire in a movie theatre or telling your fellow school mates you will kill them in a classroom.
by YOUR definition every person, regardless of mental health background, no matter ideology (imagine gun owners being ok with a Muslim citizen saying he was to own a AK-15 so he can kill Christians), no matter how dangerous, should be able to own a firearm because he has that right in the Constitution.

YOU REALLY TRYING TO SELL ME THAT?

 

[Hafnium1979]

Did you read it? I know you didn’t. it is comparing gun laws and GUN murders not gun laws and ALL murders.

When you compare gun laws vs all murders per capita you see no correlation

So you've cherry picked methods of data analysis that gives you an answer you prefer?

which is why the anti gun lobby crates a misleading statistic. It take simple ignorant folk like yourself and turn you into a rabid anti gun activist

Ignorance does NOT arise from following the data. Ignorance comes from IGNORING the data.

 

[Rucker61]

Gun Violence by State​

Based on the number of gun deaths per capita in 2019 alone, states with the most gun violence are:

1. Alaska - 24.4
2. Mississippi - 24.2
3. Wyoming - 22.3
4. New Mexico 22.3
5. Alabama - 22.2
6. Louisiana - 22.1
7. Missouri - 20.6
8. South Carolina - 19.9
9. Arkansas - 19.3
10. Montana - 19.3

Gun Violence by State 2024

Check where Colorado sits, it is pretty far down the list.

I don't look at snapshots in time to judge whether a change is effective; I look at the rates prior to and subsequent to the change to judged effectiveness. Since 2013, the violent crime rate in Colorado had gone up despite the gun laws imposed on the citizenry. The homicide rate for the five years prior to 2013 averaged 2.98; for the last five years on record it's averaged 3.62. Robbery rates are up; aggravated assault rates are up, too.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Did you read it? I know you didn’t. it is comparing gun laws and GUN murders not gun laws and ALL murders.

When you compare gun laws vs all murders per capita you see no correlation which is why the anti gun lobby crates a misleading statistic. It take simple ignorant folk like yourself and turn you into a rabid anti gun activist

so you want to compare apples and oranges, like I said, one can NOT have an honest debate with a pro-gunner. have the last word, I am done.

 

[Rucker61]

Except that the studies show that they DO.

I thought your study showed that the gun ownership rate was the factor, not the number of guns.

We know that we've added 200 million guns to the US and still saw a 40% decline in the homicide rate from 1986 to 1999.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

I don't look at snapshots in time to judge whether a change is effective; I look at the rates prior to and subsequent to the change to judged effectiveness. Since 2013, the violent crime rate in Colorado had gone up despite the gun laws imposed on the citizenry. The homicide rate for the five years prior to 2013 averaged 2.98; for the last five years on record it's averaged 3.62. Robbery rates are up; aggravated assault rates are up, too.

As they are across the country, Colorado is still one state I would feel comfortable living in if I ever moved southside.

 

[Rucker61]

so you want to compare apples and oranges, like I said, one can NOT have an honest debate with a pro-gunner. have the last word, I am done.

If a gun law is passed, and then the gun murder rate goes down but the non-gun murder rate goes up by the same amount, would you call this an effective law? Did it make the citizens any safer?

 

[Rucker61]

As they are across the country, Colorado is still one state I would feel comfortable living in if I ever moved southside.

Because it's blue as hell in Denver and Boulder.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

If a gun law is passed, and then the gun murder rate goes down but the non-gun murder rate goes up by the same amount, would you call this an effective law? Did it make the citizens any safer?

that is another canard I rather not address, it is comparing apples and oranges.
the ORIGINAL thesis of THIS OP was comparing gun violence in the US to Canada.
Address THAT thesis, not a different one.
You can not massacre a school full of kids with a knife, but you sure can with an AK 15.
'Nuff said?