What lessons can Canada teach America about deadly gun violence?

[bluesmoke]

The fact is, the US has the most liberal gun laws of the developed nations and has the worst gun violence. That's not coincidence. The way you focus on criminal gun violence is by focusing on guns. You can't separate the two. Pretending the problem is not guns is fantasy.

 

[Rucker61]

The fact is, the US has the most liberal gun laws of the developed nations and has the worst gun violence. That's not coincidence. The way you focus on criminal gun violence is by focusing on guns. You can't separate the two. Pretending the problem is not guns is fantasy.

When is the last time that one of the developed nations had a retail store looted during a mostly peaceful protest?

 

[Hafnium1979]

We don't need more laws which impact good citizens. We need laws which target the criminals who use guns., We need penalties for gun crimes to border on the inhuman.

Until we decide that it's time to address the criminals, we won't move forward on addressing gun violence in this country...

So what is Canada doing correctly then? Why is Canada different from the US?

 

[Hafnium1979]

When is the last time that one of the developed nations had a retail store looted during a mostly peaceful protest?

Why does this matter? Just a gratuitous swipe at social movements you don't approve of? How does it relate to the OP?

 

[Hafnium1979]

Most of US gun violence comes from guns bought by illegal methods. So how are more laws going to fix that?

Initially by massively decreasing the amount of guns available in the system. If guns are much harder to get for everyone then the pipeline of legal guns getting into illegal hands will be decreased.

Right now it's a statistics game. We KNOW from studies that increased gun ownership is a predictor of gun violence (Study HERE). So until we are able to achieve a perfect law enforcement system the primary approach is to eliminate some of the gun "glut" that in American society.

 

[Rucker61]

Why does this matter? Just a gratuitous swipe at social movements you don't approve of? How does it relate to the OP?

If the USAns are simply more violent and unlawful that the rest of the developed, perhaps the solutions that work there depend upon a certain willingness to follow laws and be socially respectful that our population just doesn't have.

Canadians are famous for being nice, eh?

 

[Hafnium1979]

If the USAns are simply more violent and unlawful that the rest of the developed, perhaps the solutions that work there depend upon a certain willingness to follow laws and be socially respectful that our population just doesn't have.

Canadians are famous for being nice, eh?

How do we get Americans to be nicer people? Or are we unable to do so and must simply accept that we are evil?

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

The rebuttals will largely center on one very important difference - in the US owning a gun is a Constitutional right, which may be removed only by due process of law, while in Canada owning a gun is a state issued privilege (much like driving on public roadways).

That is actually mentioned in the link in the OP.
Gun rights, as per the constitution, is still interpretive, and not absolute, if it was absolute, someone could own a bazooka and claim it is "arms".
Restrictions on "rights" already exist, like felons, so why not more stringent restrictions on people with a history of violent abuse not owning guns, why not mandatory safety training (like they have in Canada), mandatory training doesn't go against the 2nd amendment.
There is also the subconscious culture, that in the U.S. guns are a sign of manhood and independence, as if people without guns aren't "men" or "independence."
There are ways to curb access to certain weapons and who has access, but the NRA has EVERYONE convinced Liberals want to take your guns away.
Yet none of the people who spout that mantra can actually point to one Liberal policy that would take your gun away if you are a law abiding citizen and are properly licensed.

 

[swing_voter]

Interesting article that details some of the processes Canada has in place to prevent gun violence. The article recognizes that Canada is different - we don't have a 2nd Amendment for example. But it's worth looking at some of the laws Canada has that would probably not violate the 2A and do seem to work.



Link

1. You have a large group of gun hobbyists who are actively blocking any gun regulation. And successfully so.

2. People confuse gang violence with handgun deaths. Gang violence has been around for over a hundred years. It's complex and deeply rooted. Hundreds of anti gang initiatives have been tried, but nothing works. If you solve gang violence, you'll get a medal.

3. If you remove gang violence from the equation, the number of gun deaths is drastically reduced.

I support some training before you're allowed to own a gun or buy ammo or reloading supplies. The training would cover suicide prevention, we lose about 25,000 a year to gun suicides, gun safety, don't point it at anyone, and anger management.

A test would be required. After you pass, you'd be allowed to buy guns and ammo.

The gun hobbyists will block even that.

The gun hobbyists are an elderly group though. Over half the NRA membership is of retirement age. Young men today would rather play video games than hunt or target shoot so they aren't going to care about gun ownership.

So all we have to do is wait.



.

 

[Rucker61]

Initially by massively decreasing the amount of guns available in the system. If guns are much harder to get for everyone then the pipeline of legal guns getting into illegal hands will be decreased.

Did Canada do this?

Right now it's a statistics game. We KNOW from studies that increased gun ownership is a predictor of gun violence (Study HERE).

But not a causal effect. Interesting that the study looked at a period of time where both the gun violence rate and the gun ownership rate declined, and presumes that the opposite is true.

Gun ownership <> number of guns, and you're suggesting that it's the number of guns, not the gun ownership rate, that the study supports as a predictor of gun violence.

We know that the total number of guns from 1986 to 2019 increased by over 200 million yet the homicide rate declined 40% over that same time period. The robbery rate in 1986 was 226 per 100k population; in 2019 it was 86; aggravated assault, 347 vs 250. That's a lot more guns with declines in three crime categories dominated by guns.

So until we are able to achieve a perfect law enforcement system the primary approach is to eliminate some of the gun "glut" that in American society.

An approach not embraced by anyone with the power to even start to impose it.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Every single law, without exception, which is enacted has an impact only on law abiding citizens...

LMAO.
The gun obsession in the US is just one more thing thats become REALLLY freaking C R E E P Y.
I dont get it.

 

[Crovax]

Initially by massively decreasing the amount of guns available in the system. If guns are much harder to get for everyone then the pipeline of legal guns getting into illegal hands will be decreased.

Right now it's a statistics game. We KNOW from studies that increased gun ownership is a predictor of gun violence (Study HERE). So until we are able to achieve a perfect law enforcement system the primary approach is to eliminate some of the gun "glut" that in American society.

That’s a dumb statement. It’s like saying having more hammers results in more hammer related injuries.

The problem is that more guns DOES NOT result in more violent crime.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

So are you against pit bull ownership?

here we go, this old worn out mantra that those who would like tighter gun laws are AGAINST GUNS.
look it up on the net, MOST GUN OWNERS themselves would love tighter gun laws, it's a fact.
I am NOT against pit bulls, but you put that dishonest canard in there to distract from what I said, so let me repeat:
"it is like arguing with an owner of pit bulls" because A LOT OF OWNERS do not bother training their pit bulls NOT to attack people or care for them properly. BUT ARGUE THAT, and other pit bull owners, even ones who DO train their pit bulls properly will yell "You hate pit bulls." JUST AS YOU JUST DID.

 

[Subieguy]

Interesting article that details some of the processes Canada has in place to prevent gun violence. The article recognizes that Canada is different - we don't have a 2nd Amendment for example. But it's worth looking at some of the laws Canada has that would probably not violate the 2A and do seem to work.



Link

the word statistics comes to mind!

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

That’s a dumb statement. It’s like saying having more hammers results in more hammer related injuries.

The problem is that more guns DOES NOT result in more violent crime.

actually data shows otherwise, but to hell with data, when hyperbole and what you have heard from the NRA serves to reinforce what you "believe" to be true.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

It's not the guns that differentiate Canada from the United States.

Canada has fewer violence-prone people.

We have legal weed, that helps

 

[Crovax]

actually data shows otherwise, but to hell with data, when hyperbole and what you have heard from the NRA serves to reinforce what you "believe" to be true.

Actually it doesn’t, compare states with lax gun laws vs those with strict gun laws and there is no correlation whatsoever. In fact population density is a much great correlation with crime. Time to ban big cities

 

[Rucker61]

That is actually mentioned in the link in the OP.
Gun rights, as per the constitution, is still interpretive, and not absolute, if it was absolute, someone could own a bazooka and claim it is "arms".
Restrictions on "rights" already exist, like felons, so why not more stringent restrictions on people with a history of violent abuse not owning guns

That's not what is being proposed. It's the law abiding who will have more restriction imposed of them, just like in Canada.

, why not mandatory safety training (like they have in Canada), mandatory training doesn't go against the 2nd amendment.

No, it goes against Constitutional protections on requiring training/testing to exercise a Constitutionally protected right. See "literacy test to vote".

There is also the subconscious culture, that in the U.S. guns are a sign of manhood and independence, as if people without guns aren't "men" or "independence."

Really?

There are ways to curb access to certain weapons and who has access, but the NRA has EVERYONE convinced Liberals want to take your guns away.

Canada doesn't allow any handgun with a barrel under 4 inches. All those will have to be taken away, right? Biden wants to buy back all "assault weapons". That's a take away, right.

Posts here are constantly comparing the gun violence rate in the US to the other "developed countries". Every single one of those has confiscated firearms or has laws that would require gun confiscation here in the US if imposed here.

Yet none of the people who spout that mantra can actually point to one Liberal policy that would take your gun away if you are a law abiding citizen and are properly licensed.

"Properly licensed" means that the government is giving you permission to own a gun, which is unconstitutional. Under this scenario, would the government take away the guns of the unlicensed?

The liberal goal of "not one more" and "end gun violence" would require that guns be taken away.

 

[CaughtInThe]

We'll never change.

 

[Rucker61]

We have legal weed, that helps

That hasn't seemed to work in Colorado, nor has a package of gun control passed in 2013.

 

[Rucker61]

I support some training before you're allowed to own a gun or buy ammo or reloading supplies. The training would cover suicide prevention, we lose about 25,000 a year to gun suicides, gun safety, don't point it at anyone, and anger management.

A test would be required. After you pass, you'd be allowed to buy guns and ammo.

The gun hobbyists will block even that.

.

Who would create the training requirements and create the test?

 

[Grand Mal]

It's not the guns that differentiate Canada from the United States.

Canada has fewer violence-prone people.

Never saw an NHL game, didja.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Actually it doesn’t, compare states with lax gun laws vs those with strict gun laws and there is no correlation whatsoever. In fact population density is a much great correlation with crime. Time to ban big cities

I could do the homework for you, but I have participated in a lot of gun debates and they go nowhere.
I could post DATA, real data, that clearly shows that countries, like Canada, with stricter gun laws and requirements, have far fewer gun deaths per capita.
I could post DATA, real data, that clearly shows that states that institute stricter requirements to own guns have lower RATES of gun violence and that the largest % of gun violence in those gun tight states are due to purchases made OUT OF STATE from states with relaxed gun purchasing laws.

I have been participating on discussion forums for years, knocking myself silly posting data, charts, statistics, and always the rebuttal has been, BUT....
But the 2nd amendment, But my rights, But no one gonna take my guns (no liberal ever said they would unless you shouldn't have one), but but but.

The unique thing about the U.S. is how easily so many gun owners have bought into whatever the NRA has told them, sort of like Trumpers that way, whatever Trump says (no matter how wrong he is) is believed, no questions asked.

SO, no, I don't intend to go back n forth with you all day long, because I KNOW and YOU KNOW that you are wrong. AND I KNOW now matter what I posted you would have a "but" .......... so I am out of this conversation because a conversation requires both parties to have some common agreement, and we don't.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

That hasn't seemed to work in Colorado, nor has a package of gun control passed in 2013.

Gun Violence by State​

Based on the number of gun deaths per capita in 2019 alone, states with the most gun violence are:

1. Alaska - 24.4
2. Mississippi - 24.2
3. Wyoming - 22.3
4. New Mexico 22.3
5. Alabama - 22.2
6. Louisiana - 22.1
7. Missouri - 20.6
8. South Carolina - 19.9
9. Arkansas - 19.3
10. Montana - 19.3

Gun Violence by State 2024

Check where Colorado sits, it is pretty far down the list.

 

[Hafnium1979]

Did Canada do this?

Apparently they never got to the levels that we got so they didn't have to.

But not a causal effect.

You CANNOT say that. You can only say that they are related in some way. You CANNOT dismiss the possibility of them being causally related.

Gun ownership <> number of guns, and you're suggesting that it's the number of guns, not the gun ownership rate, that the study supports as a predictor of gun violence.

Number of guns/population = gun ownership rates.