What is a woman? What is a man?

[vegas giants]

Their condition is comparable to anorexics who see themselves subjectively as fat slobs, despite objectively being dangerously underweight. Body dysmorphia and self-harm are very sad conditions.

I have no problem with trans people exercising the same individual rights as everyone else: The right to marry who they want, alter their body if they are adults, serve in the military, be protected from discrimination/harassment in the workplace, etc. The thing about all these individual rights is that no one else has to do anything beyond leave them alone. They should be able to do any of those things, and it doesn't matter whether their adopted gender is "real" or not, since no one else needs to validate them.

But when people demand that women's sports be open to men, when people demand that male rapists of women be housed in female prisons, or when people tell others "their pronouns" in the first two seconds of their acquaintance...these things *do* make demands of society. And society can and absolutely should push back. Because these things, unlike the individual rights in the previous paragraph, demand that the rest of us participate in this charade.

Actually telling you pronouns is a request. They can not force you to use them


You are free to be as rude as you want


But it's quite rude

 

[george48]

What's the definition, or what are the definitions, if there are multiple usages.

To me, I define a woman as an adult human female, and a man as an an adult human male.

Female as denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes. I define male as denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.

These definitions do not require that a primate be fertile in order to be considered male or female. In primates as in other mammals, the sex is determined chromosomally, so an infertile female is still female, etc. But an analysis of chromosomes.

Humans have a lot of different ways of thinking about things, and complex emotional and psychiatric thoughts and feelings. So, it is certainly possible that a person will "identify" as something other than their sex, and therefore they might call themselves a woman or a man, when their sex is not female or male, etc. However, that doesn't change their sex. The person would still be a sexually a woman or a man, without reference to gender identity.

Why is this issue so important to you?

We can argue endlessly about what a "woman" or a " man" is...(I am maybe not too "woke" on that actually) but as long as nobody is seeking to deny (ecxept some far left loons) that women and man are not exactley the same WHO CARES?

Somebody wants to be a woman or man but were born otherwise...GOOD FOR THEM...

HOW is or our point to judge them?

I get why changing norms about gender are scary...BUT SO WERE SEXUAL PREFERANCES.

LET people be happy...

 

[Bodi]

What's the definition, or what are the definitions, if there are multiple usages.

To me, I define a woman as an adult human female, and a man as an an adult human male.

Female as denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes. I define male as denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.

These definitions do not require that a primate be fertile in order to be considered male or female. In primates as in other mammals, the sex is determined chromosomally, so an infertile female is still female, etc. But an analysis of chromosomes.

Humans have a lot of different ways of thinking about things, and complex emotional and psychiatric thoughts and feelings. So, it is certainly possible that a person will "identify" as something other than their sex, and therefore they might call themselves a woman or a man, when their sex is not female or male, etc. However, that doesn't change their sex. The person would still be a sexually a woman or a man, without reference to gender identity.

A man kicks ass... he is out there getting shit done.

Women? They kinda are lazy... they flitter about making demands and are complicated.

 

[Bodi]

That's a simplistic view, what about people who have a vagina and a penis? Who have external testes and internal ovaries, and vice versa?

And then the important question, why the hell does it matter if someone biologically man or woman has the brain telling them they are the opposite sex and wants to be considered the opposite sex? It doesn't except for shitty humans, who typically tend to be religions nutjobs

The Brain is very complex, so simple minded people can't break it down into black or white, reality doesn't work that way

Women are all over it. They are leading things and getting shit done.

Men? Riding on the coat tails of the woman behind the man, riding his lazy ass.

 

[NoMoreDems-Reps]

That's a simplistic view, what about people who have a vagina and a penis? Who have external testes and internal ovaries, and vice versa?

And then the important question, why the hell does it matter if someone biologically man or woman has the brain telling them they are the opposite sex and wants to be considered the opposite sex? It doesn't except for shitty humans, who typically tend to be religions nutjobs

The Brain is very complex, so simple minded people can't break it down into black or white, reality doesn't work that way

The mind is a complex thing....
Sometimes it tell people crazy things. Should schizophrenic people tell us who they are, and change who they are
when their mind changes and we should all pretend they are right?....

Simplistic view are typically fine (KISS)! But we can quantify and measure many things to determine what a person is....

What about Shitty humans who lie and pretend they are the opposite sex , when they are not , and they expect EVERYONE else
to lie and Pretend with them ? (Who typically tend to be unhinged nutjobs ? ....)

 

[Aristaeus]

Oh no, someone asked me to get their pronouns correct! Hurry, call the ACLU!

Their pronouns are me/I.

He/she are pronouns used by other people.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

So, what're the definitions of "woman" and "man?"

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Why is this issue so important to you?

We can argue endlessly about what a "woman" or a " man" is...(I am maybe not too "woke" on that actually) but as long as nobody is seeking to deny (ecxept some far left loons) that women and man are not exactley the same WHO CARES?

Somebody wants to be a woman or man but were born otherwise...GOOD FOR THEM...

HOW is or our point to judge them?

I get why changing norms about gender are scary...BUT SO WERE SEXUAL PREFERANCES.

LET people be happy...

Well, the topic is important to me for a number of reasons. One, there are many areas of life and the law which are impacted by the changes pushed for by the trans community. Two, the issue stands logic on its head and often completely incoherent rationale is advanced to support the trans-lobby's position here. Three, everyone has a sex, orientation and identity, so it's just as much an issue for everyone.

Who cares what the definition of a woman or man is? Well, everyone cares, because we all use those words in daily life. If a person is saying a "transwoman is a woman" then what is the defintion of "woman?"

Yes, under general circumstances, if a person wants to call themselves a man, or a woman, or a widget or whatever, it's no skin off my back. Have at it. But, I, too, have a right to live my life, and I am under no obligation to cater to other people's thoughts in that regard. So, as long as one isn't asking anything of me, then it's not really my business. But, if you want to play a sport against my daughter, I think I have standing to object.

How is it our point to judge them? The same as it is their point to judge us. The trans lobby judges the non-trans community all the time, and tells us what language we have to use, and how to behave and when we are phobic or hateful, etc. But, in general, my point in judging would be, again, to protect my daughters from unfair competition with boys or men.

Sexual preferences, to me, were never scary. It's fine with me what anyone prefers. But, changing rooms, again, women generally don't like cocks and balls in the changing room. That's not hate or phobia.

 

[VanceMack]

Sorry...but you 'people' that have pandered to delusional people havent helped anyone.........you have created legions of 'people' so ****ed up they don't know who or what they are anymore.

 

[george48]

Well, the topic is important to me for a number of reasons. One, there are many areas of life and the law which are impacted by the changes pushed for by the trans community. Two, the issue stands logic on its head and often completely incoherent rationale is advanced to support the trans-lobby's position here. Three, everyone has a sex, orientation and identity, so it's just as much an issue for everyone.

Who cares what the definition of a woman or man is? Well, everyone cares, because we all use those words in daily life. If a person is saying a "transwoman is a woman" then what is the defintion of "woman?"

Yes, under general circumstances, if a person wants to call themselves a man, or a woman, or a widget or whatever, it's no skin off my back. Have at it. But, I, too, have a right to live my life, and I am under no obligation to cater to other people's thoughts in that regard. So, as long as one isn't asking anything of me, then it's not really my business. But, if you want to play a sport against my daughter, I think I have standing to object.

How is it our point to judge them? The same as it is their point to judge us. The trans lobby judges the non-trans community all the time, and tells us what language we have to use, and how to behave and when we are phobic or hateful, etc. But, in general, my point in judging would be, again, to protect my daughters from unfair competition with boys or men.

Sexual preferences, to me, were never scary. It's fine with me what anyone prefers. But, changing rooms, again, women generally don't like cocks and balls in the changing room. That's not hate or phobia.

Sure, this stuff impacts society as a whole, I did not deny that, I was merely asking why, amongst the gigantic plethora of things this one interests you so much. You provided an explanation.

I did not say, explicitly if I may ad, that it does not matter what a women or man is. I said I am NOT PARTICULARY woke on this subject. I do believe a man is who provides, stands tall, is driven and so on. But at the same time I do recognise a women CAN be those things too. But yes, I don't subscribe to the modern woke view men and women are the same.

Good! And I too share concerns about women's sports, though I must say that I found a statement about men with higher testosterone than usual rather thought provoking. Men, who compete against other men but have higher testosterone levels than other men, what about them?

I again deviate from progressive dogma and would say there is a trans lobby. I fear though that it is blown VASTLY out of proportion. Most trans people are not part of a lobby, they just seek recognition.

But they were (sexual preferences)...

So thank you for your measured response.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

That's a simplistic view, what about people who have a vagina and a penis? Who have external testes and internal ovaries, and vice versa?

And then the important question, why the hell does it matter if someone biologically man or woman has the brain telling them they are the opposite sex and wants to be considered the opposite sex? It doesn't except for shitty humans, who typically tend to be religions nutjobs

The Brain is very complex, so simple minded people can't break it down into black or white, reality doesn't work that way

So, we allow anarchy and say that those who cannot deal with their reality should not be considered mentally challenged and get help? that anarchy is the best way to handle this? Women get pushed out of sports and other endeavors by psychotic men? Anarchy is how Marxists destroy democracies and build up their own Oligarchies of tyrannical control. The Marxists in the U.S. are using this issue to further their efforts. Along with other methods to destroy free speech of sane conservative and religious beliefs, the LGBTQ movement is being used to destroy our Constitution as well as our country. Judge Jackson is a pond that will further this as she is now shown to be a shill of the Marxist Oligarchs of the social media outlets such as Twitter, Facebook...A Harvard graduate who you know took biology classes cannot define a woman and is a woman. And, anyone buying into this must have heard the word trains when God was passing out the Brains.

 

[roguenuke]

Their condition is comparable to anorexics who see themselves subjectively as fat slobs, despite objectively being dangerously underweight. Body dysmorphia and self-harm are very sad conditions.

I have no problem with trans people exercising the same individual rights as everyone else: The right to marry who they want, alter their body if they are adults, serve in the military, be protected from discrimination/harassment in the workplace, etc. The thing about all these individual rights is that no one else has to do anything beyond leave them alone. They should be able to do any of those things, and it doesn't matter whether their adopted gender is "real" or not, since no one else needs to validate them.

But when people demand that women's sports be open to men, when people demand that male rapists of women be housed in female prisons, or when people tell others "their pronouns" in the first two seconds of their acquaintance...these things *do* make demands of society. And society can and absolutely should push back. Because these things, unlike the individual rights in the previous paragraph, demand that the rest of us participate in this charade.

Tell that to this woman:

‘You are biologically a female.’ I couldn’t stop life and become a woman. I’d devastate my wife and kids.’: Intersex trans woman shares self-love journey, ‘For the first time I’m PROUD of who I am’

“With every new life accomplishment, my wife has always stuck by my side.”

www.lovewhatmatters.com

 

[Gatsby]

Tell that to this woman:

‘You are biologically a female.’ I couldn’t stop life and become a woman. I’d devastate my wife and kids.’: Intersex trans woman shares self-love journey, ‘For the first time I’m PROUD of who I am’

“With every new life accomplishment, my wife has always stuck by my side.”

www.lovewhatmatters.com

This story is about an intersex woman who transitioned to her biological sex as an adult. Not sure what this has to do with the standard list of radical trans activist demands...allowing men to play women's sports, giving sex hormones to kids, pretending male rapists are female, etc.

If someone wants to transition as an adult (intersex or not), live their life free of discrimination, and generally mind their own business, great. You do you. I don't think that agenda is particularly controversial?

 

[roguenuke]

This story is about an intersex woman who transitioned to her biological sex as an adult. Not sure what this has to do with the standard list of radical trans activist demands...allowing men to play women's sports, giving sex hormones to kids, pretending male rapists are female, etc.

If someone wants to transition as an adult (intersex or not), live their life free of discrimination, and generally mind their own business, great. You do you. I don't think that agenda is particularly controversial?

There is no reason to not allow them to transition as teenagers and younger. Afterall, parents are allowed to make these transition decisions on obviously intersexed children without controversy from those who have an issue with transgender children getting a say in this. Intersexed children aren't getting a say at all in most cases.

But the thing is she was viewed as transgender into adulthood because her parents were legally allowed to hide that she was intersexed from her and she found out when she started to transition as transgender.

 

[Gatsby]

There is no reason to not allow them to transition as teenagers and younger.

...and YOUNGER? You want to give hormones to 10-12 year olds too? Kindergarten kids? Is there any age at all that you consider too young to start dosing them with hormones?

@Lisa Here is another one for you. But of course it's all just a strawman and your movement would never endorse this, right?

Afterall, parents are allowed to make these transition decisions on obviously intersexed children without controversy from those who have an issue with transgender children getting a say in this.

What you described isn't "without controversy." This intersex woman transitioned in her mid-20s, of her own consent. It is not OK to give children sex hormones, even if they are intersex, unless their intersex condition is causing them medical problems. If their bodies are healthy, just leave them alone.

But the thing is she was viewed as transgender into adulthood because her parents were legally allowed to hide that she was intersexed from her and she found out when she started to transition as transgender.

Not sure what your point is, or how it relates to the larger discussion. Most trans people are not intersex, and vice versa.

 

[roguenuke]

...and YOUNGER? You want to give hormones to 10-12 year olds too? Kindergarten kids? What age is the limit, or do you want to start them on hormones as soon as they're old enough to say "Mommy I'm a girl"?



What you described isn't "without controversy." This intersex woman transitioned in her mid-20s, of her own consent. It is not OK to give children sex hormones, even if they are intersex, unless their intersex condition is causing them medical problems. If their bodies are healthy, just leave them alone.


Not sure what your point is, or how it relates to the larger discussion. Most trans people are not intersex, and vice versa.

Transition is not just physical transition. And I have no issue with hormone blockers, especially since those are all allowed to be given to intersexed persons even if they don't actually need them.

The laws regarding transgender children have been giving exceptions almost universally to allow intersexed children to transition, be "normalized" even without the parents having to inform them ever. Yes, that is a problem. Not because that is harmful to them physically, but because it forces something onto a child without any input at all from them as a person. And children are people.

 

[Gatsby]

Transition is not just physical transition.

That's fine, if a boy/man of any age wants to wear a dress and tell people he's a girl/woman, go for it.

And I have no issue with hormone blockers, especially since those are all allowed to be given to intersexed persons even if they don't actually need them.

What does that have to do with the average trans person who is NOT intersex? Why does a little kid who is 100% male need hormones to make him a girl? What problem are you trying to solve?

The laws regarding transgender children have been giving exceptions almost universally to allow intersexed children to transition, be "normalized" even without the parents having to inform them ever. Yes, that is a problem. Not because that is harmful to them physically, but because it forces something onto a child without any input at all from them as a person. And children are people.

Then it sounds like the solution is to change THAT law. Not inflict it on even more people who aren't intersex.

 

[roguenuke]

What does that have to do with the average trans person who is NOT intersex? Why does a little kid who is 100% male need hormones to make him a girl? What problem are you trying to solve?


Then it sounds like the solution is to change THAT law. Not inflict it on even more people who aren't intersex.

What problem is there with the child who is 50% male/50% female but being given hormones? What problem is being solved there?

The solution is to allow people to make their own medical decisions. When it comes to transitioning, parents should be able to deny to a certain point (teenage years) and then courts should be able to get involved and assess the situation and all the merits, including if emancipation may be an option to allow the choice to be made by the teenager. Parents should be able to also approve of transition as recommended by at least 2 doctors signing off on it if any sort of physical changes are happening, whether intersexed or transgender.

 

[Gatsby]

What problem is there with the child who is 50% male/50% female but being given hormones? What problem is being solved there?

None that I can see, unless their condition is causing medical problems.

The solution is to allow people to make their own medical decisions.

I completely agree. And since parents/doctors shouldn't be making that decision for the patient, and since the patient is too young to consent, the solution is to wait until they are 18. And then they can do what they want.

When it comes to transitioning, parents should be able to deny to a certain point

So far so good, except that isn't enough. It's not that they should "be able to deny" hormone treatment. They shouldn't be ALLOWED to give a child hormones, for the reason you outlined above. It is the patient's decision, not the parent's decision. And the patient is too young to consent.

and then courts should be able to get involved and assess the situation and all the merits,

So you don't really want to let the patient decide instead of adult authority figures, you just want to change who the authority figure is.

including if emancipation may be an option to allow the choice to be made by the teenager.

...or they could just wait until they are 18. Why is this complicated legal rigamorole necessary? Again...what problem are you trying to solve?

Parents should be able to also approve of transition as recommended by at least 2 doctors signing off on it if any sort of physical changes are happening, whether intersexed or transgender.

Your previous post perfectly outlined exactly why we should NOT do that, so I really don't understand where you are going with this:

"The laws regarding transgender children have been giving exceptions almost universally to allow intersexed children to transition, be "normalized" even without the parents having to inform them ever. Yes, that is a problem. Not because that is harmful to them physically, but because it forces something onto a child without any input at all from them as a person. And children are people"

 

[roguenuke]

None that I can see, unless their condition is causing medical problems.



I completely agree. And since parents/doctors shouldn't be making that decision for the patient, and since the patient is too young to consent, the solution is to wait until they are 18. And then they can do what they want.


So far so good, except that isn't enough. It's not that they should "be able to deny" hormone treatment. They shouldn't be ALLOWED to give a child hormones, for the reason you outlined above. It is the patient's decision, not the parent's decision. And the patient is too young to consent.


So you don't really want to let the patient decide instead of adult authority figures, you just want to change who the authority figure is.


...or they could just wait until they are 18. Why is this complicated legal rigamorole necessary? Again...what problem are you trying to solve?


Your previous post perfectly outlined exactly why we should NOT do that, so I really don't understand where you are going with this:

"The laws regarding transgender children have been giving exceptions almost universally to allow intersexed children to transition, be "normalized" even without the parents having to inform them ever. Yes, that is a problem. Not because that is harmful to them physically, but because it forces something onto a child without any input at all from them as a person. And children are people"

When a patient cannot make their own medical decisions, their parents are allowed to make those decisions for them.

I'm against the laws being that the person involved can be excluded from the decision making process when it is so much a part of who they are. It isn't because the parents and doctors can make the decision for them. It is because they are excluded from any input and in fact in many cases kept in the dark about the medical interventions done on their own body.

The "problem" is with who they see themselves as and how they believe they should be treated, especially when doing so does not negatively affect anyone else.

 

[ApersonLIKEallOFyou]

The new line I find most comical is “a woman is someone who identifies as a woman.” Pure madness.

 

[Gatsby]

When a patient cannot make their own medical decisions, their parents are allowed to make those decisions for them.

Not unless it's medically necessary. Parents shouldn't be able to buy their 12-year-old a nose job or tattoo.

I'm against the laws being that the person involved can be excluded from the decision making process when it is so much a part of who they are. It isn't because the parents and doctors can make the decision for them. It is because they are excluded from any input and in fact in many cases kept in the dark about the medical interventions done on their own body.

I agree, the patient should be the primary decision-maker. But we clearly have very different understandings of what it means for the patient to have input and be a part of the decision-making process. What is missing from your formulation is informed consent from the patient, which they are unable to give while underage.

The "problem" is with who they see themselves as and how they believe they should be treated, especially when doing so does not negatively affect anyone else.

Neither of which is solved by giving underage kids hormones. If a boy wants to dress as a girl because that's how he sees himself, fine. If he wants to hang out with a different group of friends who treat him differently, fine.

The medical stuff can wait until he is 18 and can decide that's what he wants to do.

 

[Phys251]

...and YOUNGER? You want to give hormones to 10-12 year olds too? Kindergarten kids? Is there any age at all that you consider too young to start dosing them with hormones?

@Lisa Here is another one for you. But of course it's all just a strawman and your movement would never endorse this, right?

Why do you keep frothing at the mouth over this, Gatsby? If hormone therapy is appropriate for a young person, then it's appropriate. Your angry feelings don't change that.

What you described isn't "without controversy." This intersex woman transitioned in her mid-20s, of her own consent. It is not OK to give children sex hormones, even if they are intersex, unless their intersex condition is causing them medical problems. If their bodies are healthy, just leave them alone.


Not sure what your point is, or how it relates to the larger discussion. Most trans people are not intersex, and vice versa.

Irrelevant.

Not unless it's medically necessary. Parents shouldn't be able to buy their 12-year-old a nose job or tattoo.



I agree, the patient should be the primary decision-maker. But we clearly have very different understandings of what it means for the patient to have input and be a part of the decision-making process. What is missing from your formulation is informed consent from the patient, which they are unable to give while underage.


Neither of which is solved by giving underage kids hormones. If a boy wants to dress as a girl because that's how he sees himself, fine. If he wants to hang out with a different group of friends who treat him differently, fine.

The medical stuff can wait until he is 18 and can decide that's what he wants to do.

You want to force trans kids to go through puberty in a body that does not match their gender.

 

[Gatsby]

You want to force trans kids to go through puberty in a body that does not match their gender.

I'm not forcing them to do anything. It's in their DNA. If you don't like human development, take it up with 4 billion years of evolution.

 

[Phys251]

I'm not forcing them to do anything. It's in their DNA. If you don't like human development, take it up with 4 billion years of evolution.

You think that gender dysphoria should not be treated? You think that trans kids should be forced, forced to grow up with a mismatch between mind and body?