What future for EU now in austerity?

[Camlon]

Household saving rates - forecasts - Economics: Key Tables from OECD - OECD iLibrary

Savings rates in most countries are relatively high.. in fact the US has not seen savings rates like this for decades.

Sorry, 4.5% is not high. That means the average American spend 95.5% of their income. Your table confirm my point. Savings rates are not high. They are not the problem.

Also, we want higher savings rate, they have been too low in America for decades.

Err yea and you said that it was very high? It is not and much of that inflation there is in the Eurozone comes from commodity prices.

No, I said they were pretty high, not high. If there was no demand, then prices should drop because companies need to sell their stocks. But they are not. When UK inflated their money supply, it caused inflation at a 5% level. Too much savings is not the problem.

Problem is the lack of investment opportunities.

Never said it was not just doom and gloom, just saying it has a major factor. And yes people are becoming poorer, and it does not exactly help you argument when the only ones that are not.. are the uber rich.

In many ways, it is the classic spiral problem or snowball effect. Negative news brings more negative news and mood, which brings more and so on and so on.

You have to expect people to be negative. Did you not criticize America and the UK? I am sure their economy would do better if no one criticized, but that is not going to happen. Instead, EU should try to fix their problems.

Invest during low prices on many investment things? Sure why not? Why do you think the rich have gotten richer? The markets in the US are near all time highs lol!

In my eyes, that is not investment but gambling.

Real investment is more problematic in Europe. And I don't think you would put your money where your mouth is. There are simply no opportunities, and who knows that the EU will do tomorrow.

Some country? It is pretty much every freaking industrialised country lol!

Not saying there are other factors, but claiming that cutting taxes for the rich will solve everyone's problems is horse**** and there is empirical evidence of this. Denying this evidence is equally idiotic. There was far more growth under Reagan/Bush and Clinton with higher taxes than under Bush/Obama with lower taxes. Now the situations are not the same, but you can not deny the fact that growth was better from 1945 to 2000 with higher taxes than 2001 to 2012 with the lowest taxes in recent US history.

Except it is not. Switzerland is a country that has kept marginal tax rates down, and look at them now. Back in the 70s, Switzerland was the richest country in the word. You talk about Reagan, but as we all know Regan massively reduced taxes, and you acknowledged it. So high growth rates under Reagan goes against your point. Why do keep repeating a failed argument?

Also, you are forgetting. Correlation does not mean causation. The post war boom was not caused by high marginal tax rates. It was caused by rapid modernisation, and rebuilding after the war.

WHAT? Come on! Are you serious? You are more for text book theories based on ideology than actual empirical factual evidence? That is the problem with the economists these days.. they are sticking so much to their theories, and refuse to look at the reality of the situation... face it, most economic theories went out the window with this crisis.

Yes I am serious, because Correlation does not mean causation. and it never will. You need to understand why something is happening. Hence, you need to explain why high marginal tax rates are not a problem.

In fact economists never based their theories on arguments. The problem with economics today, is that they don't understand economics. They understand maths. They just plug in values into models, models that are faulty.

Listen I know you dont like taxes and left wingers, and you dont like left wingers that propose taxes on your rich buddies, but the fact is that we need taxes to run society.. without it there is no society and only anarchy. And taxes are never fair and to make society work, we need those who can afford it the most to pay the largest share of the taxes. When they dont, then the majority gets pissed... which is what is happening now.

I have no problems with left wingers. I have problems with radicals. I don't like left wingers who wants to punish the rich. I want them to focus on how we can improve living standards, improve education, etc. I don't like radicals who think all immigration is positive no matter what. I don't like radicals who think environmentalism is more important than humans. Problem is, moderate left wingers are becoming more difficult to find. .

I have no problems with people who want tax increases, but if you really want to increase taxes. Then you need to increase taxes across the board. Just increasing it on the rich will not work. I have no problems with left wingers who believe more regulation is needed, but I don't like left wingers who can not acknowledge there is no unwanted regulation. And I don't like stupid people who don't check their facts.

Europe has always been left wing continent. In the 70s Europe was radical left on economics. Then in the 90s and the last decade it switched to become radical on cultural issues. Funny enough, in Europe, you will find many on the right who is radically left on cultural issues. So some people in Europe think radical left wing positions, are in fact right wing. I am talking about believes such as, that all immigration is good, we should have no borders, we should all be controlled by Brussel, etc. I am not really that right wing, I believe some taxes are good, and I believe in regulation. It is just Europe who is very left wing.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- We need growth, that will only happen when people feel better and spend, and that wont happen as long as we get a daily feed of doom and gloom, and the fact that the banks still are not lending to businesses... granted that would not matter since, people are not buying because they fear the future, because their media outlets are telling them so with the help of... the very bankers and financial industry that caused the problem in the first place!

The idea that every country can become a manufacturing export nation like Germany is idiotic. It would mean that the standard of living would have to be cut considerably for 99% of the population because our wages are too high.. we cant compete with slave labour countries like China. And Germany has a big plus, that most nations do not.. German products are seen as quality, hence can take a higher price. That simply does not work for the rest of the EU or world.--

Well I believe there are other ways than making people feel better or trying to become export nations; for one thing, govt owned or public subsidised banks should be forced to support small and medium sized business. We've had lots of toothless statements by the Tories and Labour when in power about getting credit for business flowing. It would be wrong to do anything to successful independent banks like Barclays but the other banks which we bailed out should and can be controlled.

As for export - while I would prefer that the UK still had some of the more important heavy industries we are still quite capable in specialist areas. In some sectors however, we lose industry overseas because our competitors subsidise certain industries (Ireland and France subsidise some areas of film and animation for example). I think we need to protect those industries we do well in IF there is a risk of companies moving overseas. I don't want to subsidise industry wholesale but we need simpler tax laws, we need to support industry through the education workplace which is currently fixated on grades and tables instead of improvement and we also need to build an enterprise culture.

 

[PeteEU]

Well I believe there are other ways than making people feel better or trying to become export nations; for one thing, govt owned or public subsidised banks should be forced to support small and medium sized business. We've had lots of toothless statements by the Tories and Labour when in power about getting credit for business flowing. It would be wrong to do anything to successful independent banks like Barclays but the other banks which we bailed out should and can be controlled.

I agree.

As for export - while I would prefer that the UK still had some of the more important heavy industries we are still quite capable in specialist areas. In some sectors however, we lose industry overseas because our competitors subsidise certain industries (Ireland and France subsidise some areas of film and animation for example).

Well the Irish have been wasting money for over a decade on subsidies and tax cuts and it has not exactly helped them.

As for the French... you dont have any real competition there. The world movie business is English speaking.... a French speaking movie wont sell in the UK.. They subsidies their film industry, like the Germans and Danish and many others, for the simple fact.. to make sure they have one. English speaking American and British movies are so dominating that local production has a very hard time.

I think we need to protect those industries we do well in IF there is a risk of companies moving overseas. I don't want to subsidise industry wholesale but we need simpler tax laws, we need to support industry through the education workplace which is currently fixated on grades and tables instead of improvement and we also need to build an enterprise culture.

That is where the problems come if you do that. The companies start blackmailing you for more and more subsidies, tax cuts, land deals, lax regulation, that you end up with the companies owning the state basically. It is what is happening in many US states.. the inter state competition is fierce and they all are going for the lowest denominator by giving massive tax breaks, free land, exception from various laws and so on.. just to keep a few hundred jobs.

I have seen it in Denmark, where Mærsk (biggest shipping company on the planet) threatened many times in leaving the country if they did not get their way.. and they won.. It disgusts me to this day, but when a single company is about 20% of GDP then well..... but knowing the now dead owner... I feel we should never have given in.. because he was a patriot.. a big one at that.. and him leaving the country.. never.

 

[Ben K.]

As for the French... you dont have any real competition there. The world movie business is English speaking.... a French speaking movie wont sell in the UK.. They subsidies their film industry, like the Germans and Danish and many others, for the simple fact.. to make sure they have one. English speaking American and British movies are so dominating that local production has a very hard time.

Yeah, the Killing received no worldwide success. Sorry, it doesn't matter what the language is if the product is good.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Well the Irish have been wasting money for over a decade on subsidies and tax cuts and it has not exactly helped them.

As for the French... you dont have any real competition there. The world movie business is English speaking.... a French speaking movie wont sell in the UK.. They subsidies their film industry, like the Germans and Danish and many others, for the simple fact.. to make sure they have one. English speaking American and British movies are so dominating that local production has a very hard time --

My work in the Arts and at University has shifted in the last 10 years to the animation, special effects and games industry. There are a lot of companies in Newcastle, Edinburgh, Liverpool and even Dundee. The Bristol area and the North Midlands have been the focus for a lot of TV animation production but a lot of companies have been looking at shifting to Ireland and France where subsidised companies productions are producing cheaper offerings for UK TV. There's also a lot of content produced cheaply in Canada through subsidies and tax breaks there.

There have been some tax breaks announced in the 2012 budget but this is after a long period of decline and companies moving overseas. To me, it's possibly too little too late for those who left.

Mr Osborne said it was the government's "determined policy" to keep Wallace and Gromit animators Aardman in Britain.

Last month, Aardman bosses admitted they had been considering moving production abroad where it was cheaper.

In reaction to the news, Aardman said the tax credit would be "transformational for our industry".

"We have seen a dramatic decline on UK television of home produced animation and we now have a shot at reversing that trend," said Miles Bullough, head of broadcast and development.

We need similar for games design and the industry that supports the game industry in the UK. To me, this is an even bigger industry than the TV production industry.

 

[PeteEU]

Yeah, the Killing received no worldwide success. Sorry, it doesn't matter what the language is if the product is good.

Well, considering that the Americans made their own version as usual.. then how exactly does that support the Danish version? The original Killing was with subtitles which turns off a lot of people. Its success was with the critics and selling the rights to the story to America...

 

[Higgins86]

Well, considering that the Americans made their own version as usual.. then how exactly does that support the Danish version? The original Killing was with subtitles which turns off a lot of people. Its success was with the critics and selling the rights to the story to America...

American TV wont even show the Office, Inbetweeners, Top Gear, Shameless, Skins etc without re-doing it!

 

[PeteEU]

American TV wont even show the Office, Inbetweeners, Top Gear, Shameless, Skins etc without re-doing it!

exactly... that in its self is a hidden subsidy.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

American TV wont even show the Office, Inbetweeners, Top Gear, Shameless, Skins etc without re-doing it!

exactly... that in its self is a hidden subsidy.

No, if a TV company thinks it can make money from a local interpretation of a foreign product that is a business financial risk and not based on govt subsidy - unless there is a policy that US TV cannot show foreign TV shows that I've never heard of before?

 

[PeteEU]

No, if a TV company thinks it can make money from a local interpretation of a foreign product that is a business financial risk and not based on govt subsidy - unless there is a policy that US TV cannot show foreign TV shows that I've never heard of before?

I disagree fully.

For the love of god, they even take BRITISH tv-series and remake.... why?! if it was not a hidden subsidy for their own industry?

American TV/Movie industry are really good in exploiting the hard work of other nations and remaking their own and that is nothing but a subsidy.

French TV/movies have been buttered for years by the American industry... Nikita for example.. 3 men and a Baby and so on.

 

[Ben K.]

Umm, I'm pretty sure most European nations remade the Office, and like Americans had to pay the Brit creators to do so. All good for the economy.

 

[PeteEU]

Umm, I'm pretty sure most European nations remade the Office, and like Americans had to pay the Brit creators to do so. All good for the economy.

Of course they did... to subsidies their own tv/movie industry. Heck the Germans and Spanish dub their non national language tv and movies.. and the people who do the dubing are actors... hello subsidy. Now the excuse is that it is because the people dont understand english and cant read.. now that worked 40 years ago, but... now?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I disagree fully.

For the love of god, they even take BRITISH tv-series and remake.... why?! if it was not a hidden subsidy for their own industry? --snip--

Are you arguing that there is a Govt subsidy for them doing this? Otherwise all that's happening is a business decision by a local production company to make a local version - usually under licence of a foreign TV show for local consumption IF they feel there is a viewing audience.

 

[Grant]

exactly... that in its self is a hidden subsidy.

Is it the Obama administration which is offering these hidden subsidies?

That might explain why Hollywood is so gaga for him.

 

[PeteEU]

Is it the Obama administration which is offering these hidden subsidies?

That might explain why Hollywood is so gaga for him.

Subsidies dont need to come from government.

 

[gunner]

American TV wont even show the Office, Inbetweeners, Top Gear, Shameless, Skins etc without re-doing it!

From what i understand, it has a lot to do with not understanding our 'accents' and to a lesser extent our humour, within the context of the actor performing the line (status within society class etc). Although what can be infuriating is how Hollywood change historical events in mega productions, especially War films.

Paul

 

[PeteEU]

Are you arguing that there is a Govt subsidy for them doing this? Otherwise all that's happening is a business decision by a local production company to make a local version - usually under licence of a foreign TV show for local consumption IF they feel there is a viewing audience.

Nope not arguing that it is a government subsidy. It can be.. but it can also come from the production companies themselves.

Licensing a Danish TV show to make an American version can be some what justified... there is a language issue and we all know that Americans cant read (yes that is sarcastic). Now, not only do you have to make your own version but have to pay a license fee... You cant tell me that this can be economically wise compare to just showing the original version. Wages and production costs are higher in the US.. in fact they are so high.. so add license fee plus higher production costs, and you better get a success out of the bat to pay for those costs.

Now when it comes to British shows.. then there is no language excuse. So why remake Skins? Why remake the Office? and so on and so on if it was not to get local actors and production companies a helping hand? I mean if the show is good enough then it should draw in the viewers no? Well Skins flopped thanks to the right wing morals policy... that has got to cost MTV or who ever it was who showed it a bundle..

After all, the US is pretty much the only country I know off that actively takes a show/movie from a country and makes their own versions under the same name.. maybe we should start doing that in Europe.. rip off popular US shows and make them ourselves.. !

My point is, all countries subsidies local tv/movie/theatre industries in one way or another.. tax breaks, industry moving of money around or whatever it is called, or direct subsidies from government. There would be no The Killing or Borgen from Denmark if it was not for subsidies and helping the local acting community... both are made by the national broadcaster which is owned by the government.. and the production is highly cost effective. But there are other examples.. the Times of London would be gone if it was not for subsidies from the parent company... Sky News gone.... the list goes on and on. You might call it wise business, but in reality it propping up a loss making endeavour with profits from other parts of the industry.. and that is a subsidy.

 

[PeteEU]

From what i understand, it has a lot to do with not understanding our 'accents' and to a lesser extent our humour, within the context of the actor performing the line (status within society class etc). Although what can be infuriating is how Hollywood change historical events in mega productions, especially War films.

Paul

Yes that is one of the excuses used. But the end result is giving more work to local talent

Any ways, we are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy of course! Back to topic!

 

[Grant]

Subsidies dont need to come from government.

So who is paying these "subsidies" you refer to?

 

[Higgins86]

From what i understand, it has a lot to do with not understanding our 'accents' and to a lesser extent our humour, within the context of the actor performing the line (status within society class etc). Although what can be infuriating is how Hollywood change historical events in mega productions, especially War films.

Paul

like U571? lol my dad walked out of the cinema

 

[lpast]

You would think Europe would have long ago did something about the unreal cost of fuel....They pay 3 times what we pay here that has to be some huge drag on their economy...but you never hear it mentioned...at least I dont...last I heard gasoline was over 10 bucks a gallon...could you imagine that here.

 

[Higgins86]

You would think Europe would have long ago did something about the unreal cost of fuel....They pay 3 times what we pay here that has to be some huge drag on their economy...but you never hear it mentioned...at least I dont...last I heard gasoline was over 10 bucks a gallon...could you imagine that here.

smaller cars and a much better public transport system is why tou dont hear public outcry, In America you really only have one choice and thats your car but in much of Europe the train is a cheaper alternative.

 

[Moot]

"....After all, the US is pretty much the only country I know off that actively takes a show/movie from a country and makes their own versions under the same name.. maybe we should start doing that in Europe.. rip off popular US shows and make them ourselves.. !

Albeit crappy reality and game shows.....

List of British television programmes based on American television series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point is, all countries subsidies local tv/movie/theatre industries in one way or another.. tax breaks, industry moving of money around or whatever it is called, or direct subsidies from government. There would be no The Killing or Borgen from Denmark if it was not for subsidies and helping the local acting community... both are made by the national broadcaster which is owned by the government.. and the production is highly cost effective. But there are other examples.. the Times of London would be gone if it was not for subsidies from the parent company... Sky News gone.... the list goes on and on. You might call it wise business, but in reality it propping up a loss making endeavour with profits from other parts of the industry.. and that is a subsidy.

When most people hear the word subsidies they think of government subsidies. At least I do anyway. Subsidize is what governments do, especially at the state and local levels to lure industry and businesses to locate to their area. In fact there's a lot of competition to get businesses to move to one's local over others. An example in my area: the Governor wooed Goldman Sachs to locate a branch in SLC with $470 million in tax breaks over 20 years in exchange for investing $51 M in the local economy and hiring 1300 employees at 50% above average local county wage.

But I agree with Infinite Chaos, the US film industry isn't subsidized by government to remake British shows for their viewing audiences. They do so because there is more profit in cranking out remakes than there is in original content....and they hate paying union wages and residuals to American writers. lol

 

[German guy]

smaller cars and a much better public transport system is why tou dont hear public outcry, In America you really only have one choice and thats your car but in much of Europe the train is a cheaper alternative.

This, and Europe's population density is much higher than North America's. You simply don't need to drive so far so often in Europe to reach your goal.

 

[PeteEU]

This, and Europe's population density is much higher than North America's. You simply don't need to drive so far so often in Europe to reach your goal.

Well, that is really a tad of a hyperhole. The US is a very large country relative to Europe, hence population density on average will be much lower.

But what average population density does not account for is how much of the population lives in cities or major towns and correlate the need to have "big cars" instead of "small cars" because of this.

I can understand having a truck or SUV if you live in a semi remote farming town.. but I do not understand why there is a need for an SUV or truck in say Chicago, Los Angeles, Houston and so on.. aka a city. But we are off topic