What about affirmative action? [W:275,418]

[ReformCollege]

I tend to agree, with most versions of AA's implementation. The concept of targetting "special help" to those deemed to be most in need of it is not always a bad idea, but the devil is always in the actual implementation details.

"Special help" should come in the form of financial aid and greater primary education options. No one should be pushed ahead of someone with greater merits just because they are a part of a protected minority.

 

[ReformCollege]

no other group benefit more from affirmative action ....than white women.

I bet that put a damper of your morning racism ....now it's time to think about the noon day racism.

And you know who it hurts the most? Asians.

 

[ttwtt78640]

So there is no controlling authority? It comes down to whatever the leaders of these various places think needs to be done.






What is the definition of "parity" in this case?..and how is it determined to be "working"? Who decides? There is no set way to measure or quantify.





Looks?, c'mon, man..that's a red herring.... Skills, knowledge, aptitude should be the sole criteria...There are ways to measure those qualifications and to compare.

You may be able to measure skills and knowledge, but I am somewhat skeptical about measuring "aptitude". Personally, I would be very wary of hiring any member of any "protected" class simply for fear of later being sued if I fail to retain or promote them "as they feel that I should".

 

[P. Kersey]

"Special help" should come in the form of financial aid and greater primary education options. No one should be pushed ahead of someone with greater merits just because they are a part of a protected minority.

We've poured trillions down the rathole of government/union run DOE. How much more?

 

[P. Kersey]

You may be able to measure skills and knowledge, but I am somewhat skeptical about measuring "aptitude". Personally, I would be very wary of hiring any member of any "protected" class simply for fear of later being sued if I fail to retain or promote them "as they feel that I should".

There are tests that can determine aptitude...both physical tests and mental tests.

...or should a job/school application only ask. "Are you black or are you female; If yes to either, report to human resources for your assignment."

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

It's a holiday weekend.....College football has started ......America is on the brink of a major military strike .... and you're out there some where worrying about affirmative action something that have no effect on you personally.

Remember how I keep saying America's 200+ years history can be summed up in slavery , Jim Crow and racism? Here is the proof ...it consumes you people, you wake up ..drink a cup a coffee and start thinking about racism.

Contrary to this are the Chinese and their 3000+ years of history that lend to their superior intellect. Because they don't think like you ...they have trains averaging 300 mph as they march in the 21st century. While were here stuck in the 19th century.

Can you not think about something else.....seriously?

This is a debate site, where people come to....debate. Think about it.

If you are interested in football, go for it. Question: Why would you even post if you just want to put down the idea of the OP, have little to say... and there are other people are interested in a topic? Just wondering the motivation.

I have never heard of you so how would I remember what you keep saying? I study our history, lot lot lot more to it than that my good man/woman. Our founding was absolutely amazing in the annuals of world history. The innovation, the expansion, the maintaining of our creed through growth, trials and tribulations, the incredible diversity of personalities, and yes, slavery, war and after slavery, dealing with all that as well to where we are arrive at today in the world and in time... and our present situation and how to best deal with our circumstances.


And, if that is what you condense of common history into being, how is it that you can convince the rest of us you are not thinking of "racism" all the time. I see problems and am concerned. One of them is Affirmative Action. I think it was necessary at the beginning to open doors, to get people accustomed to seeing different, but similarly human, faces in schools and workplaces, the military, sports... but we have arrived at that spot. Now it seems more of a crutch, something to depend upon rather than adjusting to the hard work necessary to continue America staying ahead of some very wily competition out there.

To which I will respond regarding your statement of opinion that the Chinese have the superior intellect. They have a much longer history, no doubt, very colorful, very creative and inventive... however with all that they never developed a way in which their people could be included in the decisions that order their everyday lives? That seem superior to you does it? Sounds near enough to be called pretty darn close to being slavery to me. We overcame that in less than a hundred years from the founding. They pretty much still have it.

Did they come up with the technology of these trains? I, personally, would not want to be on a train going 300 mph very often. I would rather being in a jet, seems much safer... oh, and they didn't invent a way man could fly either...hmmmm.... Just about any technology they have did not have at its starting place China... they steal and pirate a lot from the West. Oh well...

Hope your favorite teams win! eace

 

[GottaGo]

Not in all cases. If what I require is a candidate for training as a jockey then I am not apt to consider a 6' 4" person weighing 320 pounds as a good choice - now am I?

I will concede your point in many cases but not all, as there is also such a (legitimate) thing as being over-qualified. Why hire (and train) someone that you beleive will not stay long; e.g. hire a certified welder to install PVC irrigation systems?

I'll concede the height/weight on a jockey. :lol: My reference was to standard jobs where the physical characteristics AREN'T part of the job qualifications to actually perform the job.

If someone is over-qualified, then they aren't meeting the knowledge criteria for the actual job to be considered. Hiring an MBA for a clothing sales clerk is exceeding the knowledge criteria. Not hiring them isn't based on physical characteristics.

 

[keith]

White males are also covered under the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. Federal laws discriminating based on race or sex or in violation of the 14th Amendment by any rational interpretation.

 

[P. Kersey]

This is a debate site, where people come to....debate. Think about it.

If you are interested in football, go for it. Question: Why would you even post if you just want to put down the idea of the OP, have little to say... and there are other people are interested in a topic? Just wondering the motivation.

I have never heard of you so how would I remember what you keep saying? I study our history, lot lot lot more too it than that my good man. Our founding was absolutely amazing in the annuals of world history. The innovation, the expansion, the maintaining of our creed through growth, trials and tribulations, the incredible diversity of personalities, and yes, slavery, war and after slavery, dealing with all that as well to where we are arrive at today in the world and in time... and our present situation and how to best deal with our circumstances.


And, if that is what you condense of common history into being, how is it that you can you are not thinking of "racism" all the time. I see problems and am concerned. One of them is Affirmative Action. I think it was necessary at the beginning to open doors, to get people accustomed to seeing different, but similarly human, faces in schools and workplaces, the military, sports... but we have arrived at that spot. Now it seems more of a crutch, something to depend upon rather than adjusting to the hard work necessary to continue America staying ahead of some very wily competition out there.
To which I will respond regarding your statement of opinion that the Chinese have the superior intellect. They have a much longer history, no doubt, very colorful, very creative and inventive... however with all that they never developed a way in which their people could be included in the decisions that order their everyday lives? That seem superior to you does it? Sounds near enough to be called pretty darn close to being slavery to me. We overcame that in less than a hundred years from the founding. They pretty much still have it.

Did they come up with the technology of these trains? I, personally, would not want to be on a train going 300 mph very often. I would rather being in a jet, seems much safer... oh, and they didn't invent a way man could fly either...hmmmm.... Just about any technology they have did not have at its starting place China... they steal and pirate a lot from the West. Oh well...

Hope your favorite teams win! eace

...and let's not forget who went to the moon 6 times!..not china..not russia...not africa...

This nation used to lead the world in technology. This country is responsible for most of the greatest inventions in history. Now we can't even get humans INTO space. We have to pay the russians to fly us there.

 

[LowDown]

Is affirmative action a good thing? A bad thing? Something in between?

Arguments for and against affirmative action

In “For Discrimination,” Randall Kennedy offers an accessible, level-headed critique of affirmative action.eace

Thomas Sowell studied affirmative action world wide and discovered it had certain characteristics wherever it was practiced:

1. It has a negligible impact on the groups it is supposed to be helping.

2. It eventually extends privileged status to a majority of the population leaving out certain groups.

3. It usually leads to inter-group polarization, violence, and a loss of lives.

4. It generates large social costs, particularly in terms of a loss of efficiency.

5. Whether it is necessary or effective or not is rarely considered. People tend to support or reject the idea of affirmative action but never look to see what is actually happening.

6. It leads to widespread dishonesty taking many forms. For example, people misrepresent their ethnic status to get benefits.

7. In areas where preferences are sought to counterbalance "discrimination" the discrimination in reality turns out to be statistical underrepresentation.

8. History is misrepresented as a way to justify affirmative action.

9. It tends to predominately benefit the middle class and upper classes.

 

[LoneLaugher]

And you know who it hurts the most? Asians.

It does? How?

 

[LowDown]

It's a holiday weekend.....College football has started ......America is on the brink of a major military strike .... and you're out there some where worrying about affirmative action something that have no effect on you personally.

Remember how I keep saying America's 200+ years history can be summed up in slavery , Jim Crow and racism? Here is the proof ...it consumes you people, you wake up ..drink a cup a coffee and start thinking about racism.

Contrary to this are the Chinese and their 3000+ years of history that lend to their superior intellect. Because they don't think like you ...they have trains averaging 300 mph as they march in the 21st century. While were here stuck in the 19th century.

Can you not think about something else.....seriously?

Translation: Shut Up! Shut Up! is the primary argument that the left uses in response to any attempt to discuss a number of issues.

 

[Jack Hays]

Thomas Sowell studied affirmative action world wide and discovered it had certain characteristics wherever it was practiced:

1. It has a negligible impact on the groups it is supposed to be helping.

2. It eventually extends privileged status to a majority of the population leaving out certain groups.

3. It usually leads to inter-group polarization, violence, and a loss of lives.

4. It generates large social costs, particularly in terms of a loss of efficiency.

5. Whether it is necessary or effective or not is rarely considered. People tend to support or reject the idea of affirmative action but never look to see what is actually happening.

6. It leads to widespread dishonesty taking many forms. For example, people misrepresent their ethnic status to get benefits.

7. In areas where preferences are sought to counterbalance "discrimination" the discrimination in reality turns out to be statistical underrepresentation.

8. History is misrepresented as a way to justify affirmative action.

9. It tends to predominately benefit the middle class and upper classes.

Sowell is always worth reading. I'm especially impressed by #9. It has been said that the predominant beneficiaries of affirmative action have been middle and upper class white women.eace

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Is affirmative action a good thing? A bad thing? Something in between?

Arguments for and against affirmative action

In “For Discrimination,” Randall Kennedy offers an accessible, level-headed critique of affirmative action.eace

With regards to the article itself... I had a problem with this passage, "Moreover, even if the common conservative belief that blacks are inherently dysfunctional is true, how would that fact make them immune to being wronged or damaged? Here, the conservatives seem simply to be retreading “the prostitute cannot be raped” argument as a defense for the hatred that affirmative action is meant to defang."

I do not believe that conservatives commonly believe that blacks are born dysfunctional, that it is something imbedded in the DNA. What I do think is the common belief is that current black culture is dysfunctional, has become dysfunctional, that it really was not that way until the 60s and that came part and parcel with the Great Society programs leading to the disintegration of the, up to that point, very solid black family, and along with that the break down of solid black communities. Programs in addition to and like AA that, while opening doors as they should, also led to people in the black community being held to a different standard, not having to compete and making other students, principally white and Asian students, have to strive that much harder to maintain.

Would be similar to the NBA teams that played each other versus one that only played high school teams. The ones competing at the NBA level would constantly have to strive, to improve, while it would be pretty much a cakewalk for the team that only played the HS teams. When it came time for that team to play the other teams that had hardened their skill playing the better competition, they would be at a disadvantage. If the bar is set low, you do not have to, and often don't, work any harder than what is minimally necessary to get over that bar. That is human nature. If the bar is higher you have to better yourself, work harder.

I maintain that this is a distinct disservice to our black brothers and sisters, fellow Americans, and only serves to hold them further back and for longer. You add the stigma attached to achieving with the "help" of AA and you have a recipe for disaster.

Would also add that current pop culture, music, tv, film and gang cultures do not assist in overcoming these other deficits handed to our black kids not at conception, but at birth. I have no real clue as how to bring all that back from the brink.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!:doh

 

[Jack Hays]

With regards to the article itself... I had a problem with this passage, "Moreover, even if the common conservative belief that blacks are inherently dysfunctional is true, how would that fact make them immune to being wronged or damaged? Here, the conservatives seem simply to be retreading “the prostitute cannot be raped” argument as a defense for the hatred that affirmative action is meant to defang."

I do not believe that conservatives commonly believe that blacks are born dysfunctional, that it is something imbedded in the DNA. What I do think is the common belief is that current black culture is dysfunctional, has become dysfunctional, that it really was not that way until the 60s and that came part and parcel with the Great Society programs leading to the disintegration of the, up to that point, very solid black family, and along with that the break down of solid black communities. Programs in addition to and like AA that, while opening doors as they should, also led to people in the black community being held to a different standard, not having to compete and making other students, principally white and Asian students, have to strive that much harder to maintain.

Would be similar to the NBA teams that played each other versus one that only played high school teams. The ones competing at the NBA level would constantly have to strive, to improve, while it would be pretty much a cakewalk for the team that only played the HS teams. When it came time for that team to play the other teams that had hardened their skill playing the better competition, they would be at a disadvantage. If the bar is set low, you do not have to, and often don't, work any harder than what is minimally necessary to get over that bar. That is human nature. If the bar is higher you have to better yourself, work harder.

I maintain that this is a distinct disservice to our black brothers and sisters, fellow Americans, and only serves to hold them further back and for longer. You add the stigma attached to achieving with the "help" of AA and you have a recipe for disaster.

Would also add that current pop culture, music, tv, film and gang cultures do not assist in overcoming these other deficits handed to our black kids not at conception, but at birth. I have no real clue as how to bring all that back from the brink.

That passage leaped out at me too, as nasty leftist agit-prop. I hope the author was just trying to mimic nasty leftist agit-prop.eace

 

[P. Kersey]

NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!:doh

Doesn't matter who "benefits" the most. It is exclusionary and arbitrary and dilutes the workforce.

Skills, knowledge and aptitude should be the only criteria.

 

[thinkforyoursel]

Doesn't matter who "benefits" the most. It is exclusionary and arbitrary and dilutes the workforce.

Skills, knowledge and aptitude should be the only criteria.

NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!

When you loose a job, fail to get promoted, or get passed over in an interview .....get pissed off at white women ....not blacks.

Again ....NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!

 

[P. Kersey]

NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!

When you loose a job, fail to get promoted, or get passed over in an interview .....get pissed off at white women ....not blacks.

Again ....NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!

I'll say this for the third time.


Doesn't matter who "benefits" the most. It is exclusionary and arbitrary and dilutes the workforce.

Skills, knowledge and aptitude should be the only criteria.

 

[imagep]

I'll say this for the third time.


Doesn't matter who "benefits" the most. It is exclusionary and arbitrary and dilutes the workforce.

Skills, knowledge and aptitude should be the only criteria.

It can be a fine line between skills, and cosmetic factors. Sometimes skills are almost the same as cosmetics. One wouldn't hire a fat lady to be a string bikini model would they? And there have been a number of studies which indicate that taller people tend to make more money than shorter people, or that attractive people tend to be considered more competent than unattractive people.

At times, I have considered hiring a very attractive female as a CSR, just to try to attract more business. It's almost disgusting that I would think like that, but it's also important for businesses to maximize\ profits, even if that requires some sex appeal. I have also considered hiring someone with an British (or Australian or other interesting english accent) to answer our phones, some accents just appear to be more classy than others. And I am more seriously considering hiring a native Spanish speaker as more and more of our customers are hispanic. Of course all of those traits can be considered "skills" for particular job functions.

If I could find an attractive light skinned african heritage female Aussey, who also speaks Spanish like a native Spanish speaker, I think that I would hit the jackpot!

 

[Misterveritis]

"Special help" should come in the form of financial aid and greater primary education options. No one should be pushed ahead of someone with greater merits just because they are a part of a protected minority.

This is a wonderful argument for school choice.

 

[Hypersonic]

Why are your feathers so ruffled by something that "has no effect on you"? You left out reparations, which may be what AA really is. Think before you drink, even Koolaid.

Yeah you should take your own advice. If affirmative action is supposed to be reparations for persons of color then surely white women ought to not benefit from it since historically, when it came to slavery through civil rights era which effected people they surely did not feel the effects of racial discrimination in academia as well as occupationally. The intent of affirmative action is to create a balance and right wrongs where a system has disenfranchised a specific group of people. This is not about the established system of affirmative action, this is about a society which since its established existence, has alienated specific groups based on phenotype, and since intergration these persons are playing catch up.

Also, people here need to stop using Asians as a litmus test for academic and social excellence, because I get the odd feeling many of you are focused on "orientals" as opposed to the Pakistanis, Indians, Iranians. As far as academia is concerned certain Asian cultures have a different value system. In a third world like India I would assume parents would value education more than the average white American because well when you live in a system like Indians, having a high status means success and an avoidance of being among the "untouchables."

 

[Jack Hays]

Yeah you should take your own advice. If affirmative action is supposed to be reparations for persons of color then surely white women ought to not benefit from it since historically, when it came to slavery through civil rights era which effected people they surely did not feel the effects of racial discrimination in academia as well as occupationally. The intent of affirmative action is to create a balance and right wrongs where a system has disenfranchised a specific group of people. This is not about the established system of affirmative action, this is about a society which since its established existence, has alienated specific groups based on phenotype, and since intergration these persons are playing catch up.

Also, people here need to stop using Asians as a litmus test for academic and social excellence, because I get the odd feeling many of you are focused on "orientals" as opposed to the Pakistanis, Indians, Iranians. As far as academia is concerned certain Asian cultures have a different value system. In a third world like India I would assume parents would value education more than the average white American because well when you live in a system like Indians, having a high status means success and an avoidance of being among the "untouchables."

The counter would be that all women historically suffered from gender discrimination that effectively barred them from some professions and from taking command of their own affairs.eace

 

[thinkforyoursel]

I'll say this for the third time.


Doesn't matter who "benefits" the most. It is exclusionary and arbitrary and dilutes the workforce.

Skills, knowledge and aptitude should be the only criteria.

NO OTHER GROUP BENEFITTED MORE FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION .....THAN WHITE WOMEN!!

And if skill and aptitude were really the criteria ...America would have many many more Chinese in the work place.

Again....the next time you feel jilted in a job opportunity ....look at your mother, wife, sister if you really want to absolve yourself of responsibility.
But almost always ....the real problem is what face you in the mirror.

 

[windowdressing]

Is affirmative action a good thing? A bad thing? Something in between?

Arguments for and against affirmative action

In “For Discrimination,” Randall Kennedy offers an accessible, level-headed critique of affirmative action.eace

it beats the nearly 100% quota we've had for white males for most of our history ...