• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What about affirmative action? [W:275,418]

thinkforyoursel

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,095
Reaction score
314
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It's a holiday weekend.....College football has started ......America is on the brink of a major military strike .... and you're out there some where worrying about affirmative action something that have no effect on you personally.

Remember how I keep saying America's 200+ years history can be summed up in slavery , Jim Crow and racism? Here is the proof ...it consumes you people, you wake up ..drink a cup a coffee and start thinking about racism.

Contrary to this are the Chinese and their 3000+ years of history that lend to their superior intellect. Because they don't think like you ...they have trains averaging 300 mph as they march in the 21st century. While were here stuck in the 19th century.

Can you not think about something else.....seriously?
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,511
Reaction score
37,761
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
My view of affirmative action (AA) is that it is being used as the "remedy" for an eternal class action in which neither the members of the plaintiff class nor the members of the defendent class were ever clearly defined and are constantly changing.

How can someone not yet even born when the AA "class action" event occurred possibly be in either in the plaintiff class or the defendent class?

If a person was not even in the U.S. when whatever "wrong" occured that required AA as the remedy then how can they be included in the "remedy"?

It seems to me that all white folks are (somehow) in the defendent class and that all non-white folks (except asians? somehow) are in the plaintiff class and that the "settlement" is that "good" discrimination (AA?) is allowed under the broad terms of AA remedy and may continue forever.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,511
Reaction score
37,761
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
It's a holiday weekend.....College football has started ......America is on the brink of a major military strike .... and you're out there some where worrying about affirmative action something that have no effect on you personally.

Remember how I keep saying America's 200+ years history can be summed up in slavery , Jim Crow and racism? Here is the proof ...it consumes you people, you wake up ..drink a cup a coffee and start thinking about racism.

Contrary to this are the Chinese and their 3000+ years of history that lend to their superior intellect. Because they don't think like you ...they have trains averaging 300 mph as they march in the 21st century. While were here stuck in the 19th century.

Can you not think about something else.....seriously?
Why are your feathers so ruffled by something that "has no effect on you"? You left out reparations, which may be what AA really is. Think before you drink, even Koolaid. ;)
 

Woodman909

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
1,285
Reaction score
565
Location
Southwest AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
If I apply for a job, I expect to be considered because of my skill and experience, nothing else. But I also expect other candidates be considered in the same way. Anything less is unfair.
 

Misterveritis

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 28, 2011
Messages
13,813
Reaction score
2,233
Location
Huntsville, AL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's a holiday weekend.....College football has started ......America is on the brink of a major military strike .... and you're out there some where worrying about affirmative action something that have no effect on you personally.
. . .
Can you not think about something else.....seriously?
And our president, the One, the Messiah, played golf. Seriously.

Are you arguing that injustice does not affect us?
 

imagep

Villiage Idiot
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
24,399
Reaction score
10,426
Location
Upstate SC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I support anything that gets people working.
What if it prevents others from working?

AA does nothing to increase the total amount of workers, only the total amount of certain groups of workers. It's a zero sum game.
 

thinkforyoursel

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,095
Reaction score
314
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Just remember .....the group that most benefitted from affirmative action .....are white women!!
 

ReformCollege

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
4,136
Reaction score
915
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
My view of affirmative action (AA) is that it is being used as the "remedy" for an eternal class action in which neither the members of the plaintiff class nor the members of the defendent class were ever clearly defined and are constantly changing.

How can someone not yet even born when the AA "class action" event occurred possibly be in either in the plaintiff class or the defendent class?

If a person was not even in the U.S. when whatever "wrong" occured that required AA as the remedy then how can they be included in the "remedy"?

It seems to me that all white folks are (somehow) in the defendent class and that all non-white folks (except asians? somehow) are in the plaintiff class and that the "settlement" is that "good" discrimination (AA?) is allowed under the broad terms of AA remedy and may continue forever.
And it's a poor remedy at that which actually hurts both sides in the long run.
 

ReformCollege

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
4,136
Reaction score
915
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
What if it prevents others from working?

AA does nothing to increase the total amount of workers, only the total amount of certain groups of workers. It's a zero sum game.
Actually it's a negative sum game if it means that the we have a greater mismatch between skills and jobs.
 

thinkforyoursel

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,095
Reaction score
314
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
...yawn....no other group benefitted more from affirmative action ....than white women.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,511
Reaction score
37,761
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
And it's a poor remedy at that which actually hurts both sides in the long run.
I tend to agree, with most versions of AA's implementation. The concept of targetting "special help" to those deemed to be most in need of it is not always a bad idea, but the devil is always in the actual implementation details.
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
24,587
Reaction score
8,968
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
hire the best qualified person you can get for the job.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,511
Reaction score
37,761
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
What if it prevents others from working?

AA does nothing to increase the total amount of workers, only the total amount of certain groups of workers. It's a zero sum game.
At best it is a zero sum game, but that assumes facts not in evidence. If the success (graduation/promotion rate) is the same for AA selected candidates as it was for the general group then it is a zero sum game, if not then it is a negative/positive sum game since the opportunity granted was wasted/rewarded at a different rate. If the employers/schools use the same resources regardless of the employees/students selected by AA yet achieve different rates of success then it is not a zero sum game.
 

P. Kersey

Banned
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
324
Location
30n x 90w
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I tend to agree, with most versions of AA's implementation. The concept of targetting "special help" to those deemed to be most in need of it is not always a bad idea, but the devil is always in the actual implementation details.
Who gets to determine who needs "extra help"?

How much longer should this continue?
5 years? 50? a hundred? 500?..forever? (as Eric "my people" Holder advocates).

How about skills knowledge and aptitude being the only criteria?
People should be free to associate, live, hire, buy, sell, work wherever/whoever they want.
 

thinkforyoursel

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,095
Reaction score
314
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
no other group benefit more from affirmative action ....than white women.

I bet that put a damper of your morning racism ....now it's time to think about the noon day racism.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,511
Reaction score
37,761
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Who gets to determine who needs "extra help"?
Obviously those doing the selecting, usually an employer or educational instituion.


How much longer should this continue?
5 years? 50? a hundred? 500?..forever? (as Eric "my people" Holder advocates).
Forever if it does not work, when "parity" is acheived if it does work.

How about skills knowledge and aptitude being the only criteria?
People should be free to associate, live, hire, buy, sell, work wherever/whoever they want.
If these "qualifications", that you speak of, can be shown to be vaild then yes, that is OK by me, however you cite many areas that seem to deviate from that. For example if what you want (see as a "qualified" candidate) is simply someone that looks, talks and dresses like you then that is hardly using a fair and objective "qualification" test - now is it?
 

P. Kersey

Banned
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
324
Location
30n x 90w
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
no other group benefit more from affirmative action ....than white women.

I bet that put a damper of your morning racism ....now it's time to think about the noon day racism.
Doesn't matter who "benefits" the most. It is exclusionary and arbitrary and dilutes the workforce.

Skills, knowledge and aptitude should be the only criteria.
 

GottaGo

Rock and a hard place
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
5,635
Reaction score
4,910
Location
Miles to go before I sleep
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
When one person is selected over another solely based on a physical characteristic (race, skin color, gender, height, weight etc.) rather than knowledge and ability to do the job, it's discrimination.

It damages the other people for something they have no control over.
 

Arbo

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
10,395
Reaction score
2,743
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Is affirmative action a good thing?
It is institutionalized racism.

It's a holiday weekend.....College football has started ......America is on the brink of a major military strike .... and you're out there some where worrying about affirmative action something that have no effect on you personally.

Remember how I keep saying America's 200+ years history can be summed up in slavery , Jim Crow and racism? Here is the proof ...it consumes you people, you wake up ..drink a cup a coffee and start thinking about racism.

Contrary to this are the Chinese and their 3000+ years of history that lend to their superior intellect. Because they don't think like you ...they have trains averaging 300 mph as they march in the 21st century. While were here stuck in the 19th century.

Can you not think about something else.....seriously?
How about rather than a moronic rant, you answer the questions asked?
 

P. Kersey

Banned
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
324
Location
30n x 90w
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Obviously the one doing the selecting, usually an employer or educational instituion.
So there is no controlling authority? It comes down to whatever the leaders of these various places think needs to be done.




Forever if it does not work, when "parity" is acheived if it does work.
What is the definition of "parity" in this case?..and how is it determined to be "working"? Who decides? There is no set way to measure or quantify.



If these "qualifications" that you speak can be shown to be vaild then yes, that is OK by me, however you cite many areas that seem to deviate from that. For example if what you want (see as a "qualified" candidate) is simply someone that looks, talks and dresses like you that is hardly using a fair and objective "qualification" test - now is it?
Looks?, c'mon, man..that's a red herring.... Skills, knowledge, aptitude should be the sole criteria...There are ways to measure those qualifications and to compare.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,511
Reaction score
37,761
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
When one person is selected over another solely based on a physical characteristic (race, skin color, gender, height, weight etc.) rather than knowledge and ability to do the job, it's discrimination.

It damages the other people for something they have no control over.
Not in all cases. If what I require is a candidate for training as a jockey then I am not apt to consider a 6' 4" person weighing 320 pounds as a good choice - now am I?

I will concede your point in many cases but not all, as there is also such a (legitimate) thing as being over-qualified. Why hire (and train) someone that you beleive will not stay long; e.g. hire a certified welder to install PVC irrigation systems?
 
Top Bottom