What A Lie Is

[LowDown]

In this election season I believe it's appropriate to explain what a "lie" is since so many people seem to be unclear on the concept.

I will tell you what a lie is by telling you what it is not.

1. It is not a lie for a person to state an opinion with which you disagree.

You may disagree with Romney's assertion that Social Security is headed for failure. That does not mean that Romney is lying about Social Security.

2. It is not a lie for a person to change his mind about something.

Romney may have changed is economic plans. That does not mean that Romney is lying about what his plans are.

3. Speculations in all of their forms are nothing more than opinions and therefore can never be lies.

Ryan can speculate about the future of the Middle East. If you don't agree with those speculations it doesn't mean that Ryan is lying.

4. If person A lies and person B does not contradict it then it does not mean that person B is also lying.

If Ambassador Rice did indeed try to deliberately deceive Americans about the Libyan situation it does not mean that Obama was being deceptive also.

5. It is not a lie if a person believes what he's saying is true, even if what is being asserted is self-serving.

More likely Rice was just mistaken about the situation in Libya even if it came off as being self-serving.

6. If a person states an interpretation of the facts with which you disagree then it does not mean that he is lying.

If Romney looks at the economic numbers and concludes that we are still in a recession it does not mean he is lying even if you think that the numbers show that we are obviously in recovery.

7. Falsehoods are not lies unless there is a deliberate attempt to deceive.

We won't know if Rice was lying or not until we can read her mind and her intentions. Better to give the benefit of a doubt.

8. A falsehood uttered by someone you don't like is not automatically a lie.

Joe Biden was probably not attempting to deceive people about his vote on Iraq. Most likely he had just forgotten.

9. If a person makes a guess about something that turns out to be wrong it is not proof that he was lying.

The Obama Economic Team's predictions about future unemployment were wildly wrong, but that doesn't mean they were lying or trying to deceive us.

 

[Thrilla]

I think you are lying to us...




:lol:

 

[Boo Radley]

I'm willing to live with wrong, as conservatives have been wrong a lot. But, when you say something like the healthcare reform has a death panel, of will decide who gets care and who doesn't, you're lying. There is no white washing that.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Good post. The problem with accusing other people of lying is that it rests on assumption about what's going in a person's mind when you cannot possibly have any idea what's in their mind. As a result, when you accuse someone of lying, you're making the accusation not often on knowledge, but on your own prejudices and assumptions about their character.

Having said that, I've accused politicians and regular people of lying in the past - recently, in fact. However, when I do it, I know that my accusation is based on my assumptions of their character rather than knowledge of their actual state of mind. This seems to be something a lot of people don't understand.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

I'm willingf to live with wrong, as conservatives have been wrong a lot. But, when you say something like the healthcare reform has a death panel, of will decide who gets care and who doesn't, you're lying. There is no white washing that.

Well, I think the point when I decide someone is lying as opposed to just making a mistake is when they keep repeating the same "mistake" in spite of being corrected and having the information necessary to correct that "mistake" readily available to them.

 

[Boo Radley]

Well, I think the point when I decide someone is lying as opposed to just making a mistake is when they keep repeating the same "mistake" in spite of being corrected and having the information necessary to correct that "mistake" readily available to them.

I would agree, and that mistake has been repeated far too often. Though I think it would be hard to be that wrong.

 

[Fisher]

Reasonable minds can disagree. For instance Biden keeps criticizing the Ryan-Romney plan for not disclosing how they would make the numbers work but then turns around and says that it is impossible to make their numbers work. Is it a lie to say something you have admittedly not seen the details of could never work?

 

[apdst]

I'm willing to live with wrong, as conservatives have been wrong a lot. But, when you say something like the healthcare reform has a death panel, of will decide who gets care and who doesn't, you're lying. There is no white washing that.

If Obamacare didn't have a "death panel" then why was the "this-is-not-a-death-panel" removed from the legislation?

 

[Fisher]

If Obamacare didn't have a "death panel" then why was the "this-is-not-a-death-panel" removed from the legislation?

I thought it was funny that Biden is the one who used the phrase and not Ryan. That was the first time I'd heard the Death Panel brought back this election.

 

[American]

Reasonable minds can disagree. For instance Biden keeps criticizing the Ryan-Romney plan for not disclosing how they would make the numbers work but then turns around and says that it is impossible to make their numbers work. Is it a lie to say something you have admittedly not seen the details of could never work?

No, the worst part is that no one asks Obama to present the details of their plan.

 

[Fisher]

No, the worst part is that no one asks Obama to present the details of their plan.

Perhaps because they really don't have one but, like everything else, that is the GOP's fault.

 

[Boo Radley]

If Obamacare didn't have a "death panel" then why was the "this-is-not-a-death-panel" removed from the legislation?

Don't be silly. Seriously. BTW, American, you don't have to use the term to make the claim. Romney made it in his debate with Obama. Hard to believe he doesn't know better. So are you two going with he was ignorant or lying?

 

[LowDown]

Don't be silly. Seriously. BTW, American, you don't have to use the term to make the claim. Romney made it in his debate with Obama. Hard to believe he doesn't know better. So are you two going with he was ignorant or lying?

Sorry, but it is hard for me to believe that there are actually democrats trying to say that it's completely irrational to believe that death panels are in the PPACA when that fact is still in such dispute. There are, in fact, commissions created by the law that decide ways in which health care will be limited in terms of what treatments, procedures, and drugs can be offered to patients or which will be paid for by medical insurance. It is not impossible for a person to believe in good faith that death panels are still an issue. No, these commissions won't be deciding on a case by case basis which patient will live and which will die, but the appeals of individual patients certainly will be decided on an individual basis. A death panel by any other name...

 

[AdamT]

Sorry, but it is hard for me to believe that there are actually democrats trying to say that it's completely irrational to believe that death panels are in the PPACA when that fact is still in such dispute. There are, in fact, commissions created by the law that decide ways in which health care will be limited in terms of what treatments, procedures, and drugs can be offered to patients or which will be paid for by medical insurance. It is not impossible for a person to believe in good faith that death panels are still an issue. No, these commissions won't be deciding on a case by case basis which patient will live and which will die, but the appeals of individual patients certainly will be decided on an individual basis. A death panel by any other name...

It is impossible for an intelligent, well informed person to believe that "death panels" exist in ACA. Romney and Ryan are both intelligent and well informed. Therefore they are lying.

 

[Boo Radley]

Sorry, but it is hard for me to believe that there are actually democrats trying to say that it's completely irrational to believe that death panels are in the PPACA when that fact is still in such dispute. There are, in fact, commissions created by the law that decide ways in which health care will be limited in terms of what treatments, procedures, and drugs can be offered to patients or which will be paid for by medical insurance. It is not impossible for a person to believe in good faith that death panels are still an issue. No, these commissions won't be deciding on a case by case basis which patient will live and which will die, but the appeals of individual patients certainly will be decided on an individual basis. A death panel by any other name...

It's not in dispute at all. It is a completely fictional charge.

■Romney claimed a new board established by the Affordable Care Act is “going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have.” Not true. The board only recommends cost-saving measures for Medicare, and is legally forbidden to ration care or reduce benefits.

FactCheck.org : Dubious Denver Debate Declarations

The entire idea at one point was a republican one. I know as Grassley from Iowa was largely for it until the tea party went psycho. I even discussed it with him and he went on about how even though it was untrue we should respect people believing falsehoods. I told him that was a complete lack of leadership on his part. And I mean that. There is no uncertainty.

 

[tererun]

Perhaps because they really don't have one but, like everything else, that is the GOP's fault.

Or perhaps we don't have to ask Obama about his plan because he has been trying to do it and we can see what it is. Just a thought that after 4 years of him trying to do things we might have an idea of what he is doing, and saying he doesn't say any part of it despite attempts to propose legislation that is specific and based on his ideas is a little stupid. The reason we need to know specifics on Romney's plan is we do not have any specific plan to work with. this is why we don't have to ask ryan about his braindead ideas because we can see what he has proposed in his time in government.

 

[AlbqOwl]

So a panel of bureaucrats makes recommendations for cost savings? And what would those cost savings be? Obama himself, in selling Obamacare, said there would be times when it wouldn't be worth it (i.e. cost effective) to treat some people and it would be best to just make them comfortable and let them die. And THAT was the origin of the term 'death panels.' Sarah Palin did not coin the phrase as she has often been accused.

But does any reasonable person think that won't be a factor in determinations of what Obamacare will pay for and what it will not? What is a a cost savings? Who has the right to tell the doctor he cannot give me the medicine known to be most effective because it is too expensive but I can have the cheaper one that is less effective but might work?

 

[tererun]

In this election season I believe it's appropriate to explain what a "lie" is since so many people seem to be unclear on the concept.

I am bored, and this seems like fun to pick apart.

I will tell you what a lie is by telling you what it is not.

Actually a lie has a definition. A lie is not a toaster, but that doesn't help me with what it is. They have this thing called a dictionary which might help you with this topic. it is just a thought.

1. It is not a lie for a person to state an opinion with which you disagree.

You may disagree with Romney's assertion that Social Security is headed for failure. That does not mean that Romney is lying about Social Security.

But it is a lie to state that their opinion is a fact. mitt Romney feels that social security is a failure, but he has stated that is a fact. It has been succesful for many years and has helped out many people. it may be failing, but that does not mean it has to fail with the proper management. So when mittens says it is a fact it is a failure he is lying. If he said he thinks it is a failure that would be an opinion that is just wrong, but it is not a lie.

2. It is not a lie for a person to change his mind about something.

Romney may have changed is economic plans. That does not mean that Romney is lying about what his plans are.

It is a lie to say that you can do something that is mathematically impossible like lowering taxes while raising spending and not coming up with a deficit. it is a lie to claim you have a plan when you do not. It is also a lie to claim you are on two exclusive sides of an issue at the same time without actually changing your mind. These are all things mittens has done. They are lies.

3. Speculations in all of their forms are nothing more than opinions and therefore can never be lies.

Ryan can speculate about the future of the Middle East. If you don't agree with those speculations it doesn't mean that Ryan is lying.

Again, true but Romney and ryan have both claimed their speculations are facts which is a lie. Opinions are fine, but are wrong in the case of ronmney and ryan. Claiming that they are facts when they are wrong is just a really bad lie.

4. If person A lies and person B does not contradict it then it does not mean that person B is also lying.

If Ambassador Rice did indeed try to deliberately deceive Americans about the Libyan situation it does not mean that Obama was being deceptive also.

Yes, but when person B endorses person A as factual without making some exception for person A's lie then person b has lied. This is why you don't endorse complete idiots.

5. It is not a lie if a person believes what he's saying is true, even if what is being asserted is self-serving.

More likely Rice was just mistaken about the situation in Libya even if it came off as being self-serving.

This I can agree with. if you have been presented with a consistently wrong answer and you believe it to be true then you are not technically lying. Of course, you are still ignorant and completely wrong. that is not really a point in their favor to say that they are too stupid to understand some pretty obvious truths. Also, it becomes a lie when you have been presented with the error and a resulting explanation of why it is wrong and you still keep spouting it knowing that it is a lie. For example, Akin may have well thought the female reproductive system can shut itself down in the case of a legitimate rape. When he was presented with the facts he would have been lying to keep on his original statement, which certain people have yet to stop promoting.

6. If a person states an interpretation of the facts with which you disagree then it does not mean that he is lying.

If Romney looks at the economic numbers and concludes that we are still in a recession it does not mean he is lying even if you think that the numbers show that we are obviously in recovery.

As long as they do not say their interpretation is a fact, which Romney has done. Otherwise he would just be wrong. Still i don't think hopelessly wrong is better than constantly lying, but mitt does both.

7. Falsehoods are not lies unless there is a deliberate attempt to deceive.

We won't know if Rice was lying or not until we can read her mind and her intentions. Better to give the benefit of a doubt.

However, saying that he has no plans of restricting abortion rights and promoting personhood is a lie by mitt romney. It is not a mistake. It is a flat out lie. It is also a lie to call a lie a gaffe.

8. A falsehood uttered by someone you don't like is not automatically a lie.

Joe Biden was probably not attempting to deceive people about his vote on Iraq. Most likely he had just forgotten.

Sometimes it would be a gaffe. Saying that he was campaigning in 57 states was a gaffe on obama's part. Saying he doesn't know of any plans to limit abortion is a bold faced lie by a person who has endorsed it, claimed he would try to overturn roe v wade, and who has promoted anti-abortion bills and has his own. That is not a gaffe, that is a lie.

9. If a person makes a guess about something that turns out to be wrong it is not proof that he was lying.

The Obama Economic Team's predictions about future unemployment were wildly wrong, but that doesn't mean they were lying or trying to deceive us.

No, but claiming it is not a guess and saying it is a fact is a lie. Not backing off of it when it is proven wrong makes it a lie. However, if you admit to a mistake then you are correct it just makes you wrong.

See, you did need help with the whole lying thing.

HTH and HAND.

 

[zimmer]

In this election season I believe it's appropriate to explain what a "lie" is since so many people seem to be unclear on the concept.

I will tell you what a lie is by telling you what it is not.


8. A falsehood uttered by someone you don't like is not automatically a lie.

Joe Biden was probably not attempting to deceive people about his vote on Iraq. Most likely he had just forgotten.

Send it to Axlerod & Co.
Point 8 is difficult to believe. It's the most critical and public vote. We're not talking about a line item for funding a sewer somewhere.
If he forgot... that tells volumes... if he lied (which I believe he did) it says volumes. In either case... t'is not good in the least.
As an aside: I wonder what Biden's son (in the military) thought. Ashley... probably was out somewhere scoring a line.

 

[Fisher]

Or perhaps we don't have to ask Obama about his plan because he has been trying to do it and we can see what it is. Just a thought that after 4 years of him trying to do things we might have an idea of what he is doing, and saying he doesn't say any part of it despite attempts to propose legislation that is specific and based on his ideas is a little stupid. The reason we need to know specifics on Romney's plan is we do not have any specific plan to work with. this is why we don't have to ask ryan about his braindead ideas because we can see what he has proposed in his time in government.

If re-elected what is his economic plan? What he did in the past hasn't worked out so well thus far and it isn't obvious to me, so shouldn't be hard for you to say something other than rhetoric if you actually know anything about his plan. I need to to know what Obama's specifics are as well, especially since he apparently thinks he will have more leeway on things after he is re-elected. He is not getting a democratic House so I would like to see what his plan would be that a GOP house could take up. Guess what--the fact that Obama cannot seem to get anything done with the GOP is exactly why I do not lean in his direction--we cannot afford 2 or 4 more years of gridlock, and I don't get to vote for the entire legislative branch, but I do the executive.

 

[tererun]

If re-elected what is his economic plan? What he did in the past hasn't worked out so well thus far and it isn't obvious to me, so shouldn't be hard for you to say something other than rhetoric if you actually know anything about his plan. I need to to know what Obama's specifics are as well, especially since he apparently thinks he will have more leeway on things after he is re-elected. He is not getting a democratic House so I would like to see what his plan would be that a GOP house could take up. Guess what--the fact that Obama cannot seem to get anything done with the GOP is exactly why I do not lean in his direction--we cannot afford 2 or 4 more years of gridlock, and I don't get to vote for the entire legislative branch, but I do the executive.

Actually, what he did is working. he did save lots of jobs, and he did save the US auto industry. It has worked, the debate is about how much it has worked. Certainly he has brought us back to a steady increase in jobs, and the market is going up, and people are doing better. Yes, we can see what he is proposing to do in the future. He has been doing it and proposing these things because it is his job. You can't say he has not been. We know what his plans are. It is Romney's claims that don't make any sense in reality and that is why we want to know what his plans actually are. It is easy to make a promise. It is hard to keep it. Romney is promising us 12 million new jobs. How the hell is he going to do that?

 

[KWA]

It is impossible for an intelligent, well informed person to believe that "death panels" exist in ACA. Romney and Ryan are both intelligent and well informed. Therefore they are lying.

There are many intelligent, well informed people who feel "death panels" are a possibility, including Princeton economics professor Uwe Reinhardt. Therefore you are wrong.

 

[tererun]

There are many intelligent, well informed people who feel "death panels" are a possibility, including Princeton economics professor Uwe Reinhardt. Therefore you are wrong.

No, people's opinions and ignorance do not make something where there isn't anything that does that. Your delusions do not make that a lie.

 

[Jarhead]

Actually, what he did is working. he did save lots of jobs, and he did save the US auto industry. It has worked, the debate is about how much it has worked. Certainly he has brought us back to a steady increase in jobs, and the market is going up, and people are doing better. Yes, we can see what he is proposing to do in the future. He has been doing it and proposing these things because it is his job. You can't say he has not been. We know what his plans are. It is Romney's claims that don't make any sense in reality and that is why we want to know what his plans actually are. It is easy to make a promise. It is hard to keep it. Romney is promising us 12 million new jobs. How the hell is he going to do that?

He did not save the US Auto Industry. He "saved" the UAW. There is a difference. A structured banckruptcy would have "saved" the "Industry" but would have more than likely put an end to the crazy retirement plan of the UAW members.

 

[LowDown]

It is impossible for an intelligent, well informed person to believe that "death panels" exist in ACA. Romney and Ryan are both intelligent and well informed. Therefore they are lying.

You insist that Romney and Ryan are lying even after it is shown that they are not. So, what does that make you?

It makes you opinionated. And wrong.