We're already in WW3

[oneworld2]

You and I don't really have much say in the matter...I'm just pointing out the futility of saying "We don't have to do this".
Of ****ing COURSE we don't have to, but it's coming.

"All the time you spend tryin to get back what's been took from you there's more goin out the door.
After a while you just try and get a tourniquet on it."

It's a debate forum and people put their 5 penneth worth up for discussion . You may have well said the above to every poster in every post made in this forum but you haven't and that's telling in and of itself

 

[oneworld2]

All of the Eastern European countries that joined NATO in the wake of the Cold War.... are you somehow suggesting that Russia should have had a veto over their decision-making?

No, what I am saying is that the eastward expansion of NATO has been the cause of this current situation to a large degree. We can apply the same question on a global scale. Should the Cubans have had the right to Russian missiles in the 60's? Should the Chileans have had the right to an Allende government in 1973? Should the Nicaraguans have been left to sort their country out after Samoza's autocratic kleptocracy? I could go on but the point is already made.

Why didn't NATO disappear when the Warsaw Pact disappeared ? Why wasn't a new security arrangement formed to replace it? One that could have included Russia along with all of the eastern European nations?

 

[Cordelier]

No, what I am saying is that the eastward expansion of NATO has been the cause of this current situation to a large degree. We can apply the same question on a global scale. Should the Cubans have had the right to Russian missiles in the 60's? Should the Chileans have had the right to an Allende government in 1973? Should the Nicaraguans have been left to sort their country out after Samoza's autocratic kleptocracy? I could go on but the point is already made.

Why didn't NATO disappear when the Warsaw Pact disappeared ? Why wasn't a new security arrangement formed to replace it? One that could have included Russia along with all of the eastern European nations?

I think it should be perfectly obvious from present Russian actions in the Ukraine why NATO didn't disappear after the Cold War.... and why nations that were formerly under Soviet thrall during the Cold War were so anxious to join.

They aren't good neighbors to have. To put it plainly, they are brutal, paranoid, expansionist barbarians.

How do you think Russia got to be the largest nation on Earth.... by a substantial margin?

This brutal aggression wasn't "forced" on them by any means, shape, or form. This is who they are. It's who they have always been.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

It's a debate forum and people put their 5 penneth worth up for discussion . You may have well said the above to every poster in every post made in this forum but you haven't and that's telling in and of itself

Holy crap, that's a complete misinterpretation of what I was getting at.
I was saying that all of the ruminations on this and every other forum amount to a hill of beans as far as world leadership are concerned.
We do GET to HAVE a SAY, but no one up top is listening...that is what I was getting at.

What's telling is you assuming I was devaluing our right to speak here.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Why didn't NATO disappear when the Warsaw Pact disappeared ? Why wasn't a new security arrangement formed to replace it? One that could have included Russia along with all of the eastern European nations?

The Would-Be Czar's Dark Prophet​

With his disheveled dress and long beard, Dugin affects the appearance of an Orthodox mystic, bearing a not uncoincidental resemblance to the monk Grigori Rasputin. In the West, a philosopher like Dugin expressing admiration for both Satanism and the Waffen-SS would be dismissed as a crank; proclamations that national greatness are to be found in a "genuine, true, radically revolutionary and consistent, fascist fascism" would rightly not endear you to the public at large. In the Russian Federation, however, Dugin is an adviser to high-ranking members of Vladimir Putin's United Russia party. Even more disturbing, according to Foreign Policy, his 1997 Foundations of Geopolitics has been required reading for students at the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation for a generation.

"In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia," writes Dugin, "remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution… the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us.
Everything is to be cleansed off… science, values, philosophy, art, society, modes, patterns, 'truths,' understanding of Being, time and space. All is dead with Modernity. So it should end. We are going to end it."

 

[oneworld2]

Holy crap, that's a complete misinterpretation of what I was getting at.
I was saying that all of the ruminations on this and every other forum amount to a hill of beans as far as world leadership are concerned.
We do GET to HAVE a SAY, but no one up top is listening...that is what I was getting at.

What's telling is you assuming I was devaluing our right to speak here.

Maybe I read the words on the image and interpreted them as directed at me personally. If I am wrong then I have no problem apologizing for it.

 

[NWRatCon]

Messianic personalities tend to have clouded judgment.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I've seen too many unhealthy relationships, and read too many murder-suicide stories. Putin would fit into nearly any of them. He would not be the victim.

 

[Evilroddy]

The Would-Be Czar's Dark Prophet​

With his disheveled dress and long beard, Dugin affects the appearance of an Orthodox mystic, bearing a not uncoincidental resemblance to the monk Grigori Rasputin. In the West, a philosopher like Dugin expressing admiration for both Satanism and the Waffen-SS would be dismissed as a crank; proclamations that national greatness are to be found in a "genuine, true, radically revolutionary and consistent, fascist fascism" would rightly not endear you to the public at large. In the Russian Federation, however, Dugin is an adviser to high-ranking members of Vladimir Putin's United Russia party. Even more disturbing, according to Foreign Policy, his 1997 Foundations of Geopolitics has been required reading for students at the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation for a generation.

"In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia," writes Dugin, "remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution… the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us.
Everything is to be cleansed off… science, values, philosophy, art, society, modes, patterns, 'truths,' understanding of Being, time and space. All is dead with Modernity. So it should end. We are going to end it."

CBS:

AG Dugin has been a fascist, pseudo-religious, faux-mystic, ultranationalist, Rasputinoid with dreams of TransEurasian domination for far too long. What a piece of work that maniac is and how can any sane Russian citizen, military member or book publisher buy into his bizarre web of occult mixed with manifest destiny is beyond my ken to understand. Thank you for reminding me of this intellectual carbuncle in the rump of Kremlin politics. He's as dangerous as Putin is and just as clever to boot. His toxic vision for Russia is behind much of what's happening in Urraine right now. He makes Steve Bannon appear mild and reasonable by comparison. Oy vey!

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy

 

[NWRatCon]

The Would-Be Czar's Dark Prophet​

With his disheveled dress and long beard, Dugin affects the appearance of an Orthodox mystic, bearing a not uncoincidental resemblance to the monk Grigori Rasputin. In the West, a philosopher like Dugin expressing admiration for both Satanism and the Waffen-SS would be dismissed as a crank; proclamations that national greatness are to be found in a "genuine, true, radically revolutionary and consistent, fascist fascism" would rightly not endear you to the public at large. In the Russian Federation, however, Dugin is an adviser to high-ranking members of Vladimir Putin's United Russia party. Even more disturbing, according to Foreign Policy, his 1997 Foundations of Geopolitics has been required reading for students at the Military Academy of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation for a generation.

"In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia," writes Dugin, "remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution… the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us.
Everything is to be cleansed off… science, values, philosophy, art, society, modes, patterns, 'truths,' understanding of Being, time and space. All is dead with Modernity. So it should end. We are going to end it."

It is hard not to see exactly this in "If you want to know what the fascists intend to do, it's always wise to pay attention to what they literally say, otherwise you might be caught surprised. In looking for an interpretive key to understanding Putin's unhinged February 22 address on the eve of invasion, which was replete with bizarre historical revisionism, we'd all do well to familiarize ourselves with the contents of Foundations of Geopolitics. Understanding Putin's motivations, his current actions, and his future plans depends on a thorough comprehension of the sort of dangerous ideas advocated by an ideologue like Dugin, a man whom historian Timothy Snyder described in The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, America as having "revived or remade Nazi ideas for Russian purposes."" Um, uh huh. Exactly.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Maybe I'm cynical, but I've seen too many unhealthy relationships, and read too many murder-suicide stories. Putin would fit into nearly any of them. He would not be the victim.

Of course not but he wouldn't pass up the opportunity to use victimhood as justification, which is exactly what he's doing now, and millions of Americans are all acting like
Awwwww, this poor troubled dark and mysterious man!! ♥♥♥♥

I'm surprised Tucker Carlson doesn't leave snail trails on his chair every night.

 

[HangLow]

Running some numbers...
Russia has/had

• 12,000 tanks/mechanized fighting systems;
• 4100 fighting aircraft;
• 605 capital ships,

per GLOBAL FIREPOWER.com
("War does not determine who is right
- only who is left." - Bertrand Russell)
The world should budget accordingly.

War does not determine
- who is right
- only who is left.
- Bertrand Russell

​

 

[craig]

But it is a cold war.

 

[NWRatCon]

I'm surprised Tucker Carlson doesn't leave snail trails on his chair every night.

Do we know he doesn't? I hear his equipment has to be replaced regularly as the slime stains.

 

[NWRatCon]

I just remembered something....

Путин, пошёл на хуй​

 

[craig]

I just remembered something....

Путин, пошёл на хуй​

I don't know what that means but it looks painfully.

 

[Antiwar]

Send the refugees to Canada and America. We have the room and the resources to shelter them or accept them as immigrants. That way Europe does not get overwhelmed and Putin/Russia are thwarted while Europe and the West gather their strength.

Discipline is the key to defeating Mr. Putin and Russia, not succumbing to passion and emotion in the face of atrocity. NATO and the West need time to build up their forces and to reposition military resources to fight a conventional war with Russia in Eastern Europe without going nuclear. So provoking a full military confrontation right now plays into Putin's and Russia's hands and greatly raises the chances of an escalating nuclear war.

What kind of a war are you envisioning and advocating for the West and NATO to start/escalate? An armed defence of Ukraine? A counter-attack to drive Russian forces out of Ukraine? A full attack on Russia, Belarus and any member of the Russian Federation which aids those two states? A thermonuclear first-strike at Russia and Belarus? What do you mean when you say, "... so we might as well do it now."? There is a very high chance that striking at Russia when 67% of its readily available regular ground armed forces are tied up in Ukraine will likely trigger a nuclear response.

Do we want to risk a few nuclear disasters in Ukraine or a global thermonuclear war instead?

The real danger is the nuclear-armed ICBMs which Russia can launch from both land bases and nuclear-armed missile-submarines. Interdicting North Atlantic and Pacific shipping is minor in comparison.

Why do you want to rush into war or escalate a war which you believe already exists, when the time is not right?

Fear is the beginning of wisdom and nobody wins a global thermonuclear war (except the cockroaches and the worms). This could be the beginning of the end of human civilisation. I would not rush into that.

Very respectfully and please be well.
Evilroddy.

Man, your commentary on this situation is getting more militaristic.

 

[NWRatCon]

I don't know what that means but it looks painfully.

It's a message to Putin.

 

[Evilroddy]

Man, your commentary on this situation is getting more militaristic.

Antiwar:

You are right. To every season, there is a time for peace and a time for war. The seasons are changing.

NATO and the West must now take decisive steps to clearly demonstrate to Russia and Mr. Putin that they have waded into the Rubicon River of intolerable behaviour in Europe and now NATO and the West must be ready to scare the shit out of Russia about what comes next, if they try to cross that metaphorical political river any further. There can be no room for misunderstanding. The time for peace and discussion will have to be suspended until Russia and Mr. Putin are terrified back into more peaceful patterns of international behaviour. When that terror is reestablished by reasserting the existential nightmare of MAD clearly for all to see, then discussion and meaningful negotiation can recommence. If Russia and Putin do not respond, then we all enter a nuclear-armed New Dark Ages from which no society may emerge intact. This is the utter madness of war played out for all to see. Hopefully human beings of all political stripes will see this rising horror for what it is (the end) and change their behaviours accordingly.

Sometimes insanity is the only sane path forward. That's the lesson and the curse of war.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Rogue Valley:

Perhaps to give Azerbaijan, Armenia and the 'Stans' wiggle room to abrogate their treaty responsibilities to a Russian Federation and a Belarus which entered into a reckless war of choice? I am pretty sure that Central Asia is quite worried about the loose cannons shooting off invasions and nuclear threats in the west are doing.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

That doesn't negate the fact that Putin complains about the NATO military alliance endlessly yet never mentions the CSTO military alliance.

Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[Antiwar]

Antiwar:

You are right. To every season, there is a time for peace and a time for war. The seasons are changing.

NATO and the West must now take decisive steps to clearly demonstrate to Russia and Mr. Putin that they have waded into the Rubicon River of intolerable behaviour in Europe and now NATO and the West must be ready to scare the shit out of Russia about what comes next, if they try to cross that metaphorical political river any further. There can be no room for misunderstanding. The time for peace and discussion will have to be suspended until Russia and Mr. Putin are terrified back into more peaceful patterns of international behaviour. When that terror is reestablished by reasserting the existential nightmare of MAD clearly for all to see, then discussion and meaningful negotiation can recommence. If Russia and Putin do not respond, then we all enter a nuclear-armed New Dark Ages from which no society may emerge intact. This is the utter madness of war played out for all to see. Hopefully human beings of all political stripes will see this rising horror for what it is (the end) and change their behaviours accordingly.

Sometimes insanity is the only sane path forward. That's the lesson and the curse of war.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.

NATO and the West have been taking decisive steps for decades, and those steps are at least half of what have had humanity living under the terroristic threat of 'mutually assured stupidity' for at least 60 years.

 

[craig]

NATO and the West have been taking decisive steps for decades, and those steps are at least half of what have had humanity living under the terroristic threat of 'mutually assured stupidity' for at least 60 years.

When Putin finally falls perhaps Russia can finally become a modern European democracy.

 

[Antiwar]

When Putin finally falls perhaps Russia can finally become a modern European democracy.

I believe that Putin and Russia have been asking to join NATO and the EU.

 

[Evilroddy]

NATO and the West have been taking decisive steps for decades, and those steps are at least half of what has had humanity living under the terroristic threat of 'mutually assured stupidity.'

Antiwar:

No argument from me. NATO was highly opportunistic in the aftermath of the USSR's collapse into Russia, the CIS and now the Russian Federation. But that opportunism never involved direct war nor the forceful annexation of territory by war. At no time did NATO openly threaten to use WMDs as a tool for shielding conquest by conventional war. Russia has done all this under the leadership of Mr. Putin.

Russia and Mr, Putin have threatened nuclear war if any power threatens the realisation of their goals in Ukraine and he has taken overt steps to prepare for that eventuality. That kind of thinking and brinksmanship is simply intolerable and must be stopped by any means possible. Unfortunately when dealing with a group of countries and a now totalitarian leader who are demonstrating daily how little regard they have for innocent human life, there is only one tool left to put them back into their Pandora's boxes. That tool is "terror", pure and simple. So terror it must be. NATO will have to make it very clear to Mr. Putin, to Russia and to Belarus that they have reached a tipping-point in their pursuit of ambitions and that any attack on NATO or Scandinavia will result in a terror the likes of which Russia has not experienced since June 22nd, 1941 but with the added horror of potential nuclear conflict. Again there can be no room for misunderstanding as the stakes for all of humanity are far too high to permit or allow this to go unchecked and unpunished.

Discussion and negotiation will only feed Mr. Putin's appetite for more conquest by force right now. Only terror can ruin his appetite and force him to abandon his plans for Russian manifest destiny in Western Eurasia. Only terror can cause those who enable Mr. Putin to instead stop him. So terror it must be.

Be well and stay alive.
Evilroddy.

 

[Antiwar]

Antiwar:

No argument from me. NATO was highly opportunistic in the aftermath of the USSR's collapse into Russia, the CIS and now the Russian Federation. But that opportunism never involved direct war nor the forceful annexation of territory by war. At no time did NATO openly threaten to use WMDs as a tool for shielding conquest by conventional war. Russia has done all this under the leadership of Mr. Putin.

Sorry, I had to stop there. Sure, you added some stuff to the end of the words I highlighted. But the reality is that the USG/NATO nuclear arsenal inherently threatens Russia (and everything on and near Earth), and the threats go well beyond the implicit threats. A nation's government does not possess a highly capable nuclear arsenal without it being a threat; the threats are 'baked-in.'

 

[bongsaway]

Send the refugees to Canada and America. We have the room and the resources to shelter them or accept them as immigrants. That way Europe does not get overwhelmed and Putin/Russia are thwarted while Europe and the West gather their strength.

Discipline is the key to defeating Mr. Putin and Russia, not succumbing to passion and emotion in the face of atrocity. NATO and the West need time to build up their forces and to reposition military resources to fight a conventional war with Russia in Eastern Europe without going nuclear. So provoking a full military confrontation right now plays into Putin's and Russia's hands and greatly raises the chances of an escalating nuclear war.

What kind of a war are you envisioning and advocating for the West and NATO to start/escalate? An armed defence of Ukraine? A counter-attack to drive Russian forces out of Ukraine? A full attack on Russia, Belarus and any member of the Russian Federation which aids those two states? A thermonuclear first-strike at Russia and Belarus? What do you mean when you say, "... so we might as well do it now."? There is a very high chance that striking at Russia when 67% of its readily available regular ground armed forces are tied up in Ukraine will likely trigger a nuclear response.

Do we want to risk a few nuclear disasters in Ukraine or a global thermonuclear war instead?

The real danger is the nuclear-armed ICBMs which Russia can launch from both land bases and nuclear-armed missile-submarines. Interdicting North Atlantic and Pacific shipping is minor in comparison.

Why do you want to rush into war or escalate a war which you believe already exists, when the time is not right?

Fear is the beginning of wisdom and nobody wins a global thermonuclear war (except the cockroaches and the worms). This could be the beginning of the end of human civilisation. I would not rush into that.

Very respectfully and please be well.
Evilroddy.

I respectfully disagree about your thinking on discipline. I'm thinking the military folks have gone over all kinds of scenarios already including nuclear. When putin starts talking about nuclear we should turn right around and remind him he is not the only country with nukes so be careful of what you're threatening instead of cowering. Sooner or later the enough is enough line will be crossed and military action from the rest of the world will commence.