Was the JFK Murder a Successful Coup by Government?

[Cordelier]

If you haven't watched the documentary you shouldn't come to a conclusion so quickly using that one piece of info. There are things in the doc I have never seen or heard before and sadly, it all made sense.

Fair enough... since I haven't seen it, I'm not coming to a conclusion about the documentary either way... but if the subject of the documentary doesn't strike me as credible on basic, easily-verifiable facts, then why should I care what he claims on more complicated, harder to prove ones?

Does the documentary provide any corroborating evidence to back up his assertions? Or does it just relay his version of events?

 

[Atomic Kid]

The official investigation got it mostly right and subsequent investigations conducted with more modern techniques and equipment have verified it’s conclusion that Oswald was the lone gunman.

 

[Indrob]

The official investigation got it mostly right and subsequent investigations conducted with more modern techniques and equipment have verified it’s conclusion that Oswald was the lone gunman.

How could you possibly know that?

 

[Cordelier]

How could you possibly know that?

I'd say that there is a notable lack of forensic evidence that can be tied to anyone besides Oswald being the shooter. Sure, there are a million and one conspiracy theories... but pretty much all of them are circumstantial in nature. I have yet to see anyone make a strong case showing hard evidence that anyone else in Dealey Plaza fired any shots. A Grassy Knoll shooter would have left forensic evidence of a transverse wound in the President's head... and would have had a high probability of hitting Mrs. Kennedy. Another shooter beside Oswald in the School Book Depository would have been noticed by other staff members. I suppose a case could be made that there was a shooter on the roof of the Dal-Tex building across the street from the School Book Depository - it lines up with the wound patterns as well... but it'd be a case made from whole cloth. Nobody witnessed such a shooter. So how could a stronger case be made for one given the preponderance of evidence pointing to Oswald?

 

[Indrob]

I'd say that there is a notable lack of forensic evidence that can be tied to anyone besides Oswald being the shooter. Sure, there are a million and one conspiracy theories... but pretty much all of them are circumstantial in nature. I have yet to see anyone make a strong case showing hard evidence that anyone else in Dealey Plaza fired any shots. A Grassy Knoll shooter would have left forensic evidence of a transverse wound in the President's head... and would have had a high probability of hitting Mrs. Kennedy. Another shooter beside Oswald in the School Book Depository would have been noticed by other staff members. I suppose a case could be made that there was a shooter on the roof of the Dal-Tex building across the street from the School Book Depository - it lines up with the wound patterns as well... but it'd be a case made from whole cloth. Nobody witnessed such a shooter. So how could a stronger case be made for one given the preponderance of evidence pointing to Oswald?

E Howard Hunt

And nobody is suggesting Oswald wasn't involved in some way.

 

[Cordelier]

E Howard Hunt

And nobody is suggesting Oswald wasn't involved in some way.

You do realize that Hunt's specialty in the CIA was sowing disinformation, right?

 

[Atomic Kid]

I'd say that there is a notable lack of forensic evidence that can be tied to anyone besides Oswald being the shooter. Sure, there are a million and one conspiracy theories... but pretty much all of them are circumstantial in nature. I have yet to see anyone make a strong case showing hard evidence that anyone else in Dealey Plaza fired any shots. A Grassy Knoll shooter would have left forensic evidence of a transverse wound in the President's head... and would have had a high probability of hitting Mrs. Kennedy. Another shooter beside Oswald in the School Book Depository would have been noticed by other staff members. I suppose a case could be made that there was a shooter on the roof of the Dal-Tex building across the street from the School Book Depository - it lines up with the wound patterns as well... but it'd be a case made from whole cloth. Nobody witnessed such a shooter. So how could a stronger case be made for one given the preponderance of evidence pointing to Oswald?

Exactly! The overwhelming majority of the evidence gathered, be it forensic, circumstantial, ballistic, documentary or the testimony of eyewitnesses, points to Oswald on the 6th floor. Really if his victim had been anyone other than the President it would've been a pretty cut and dry prosecution and conviction. And you're right given the trajectory of an alleged shot from the grassy knoll there would have to be an exit wound on the left side of his head. So if there is no exit wound there then where is the bullet?

 

[calamity]

During the fatal hit, Kennedy's head snapped forward and to the right, the same direction his brain bits flew. That means the shooter had to be behind and to the left.

In other words, the shooter was in one of the white buildings not the book depository.

 

[Indrob]

You do realize that Hunt's specialty in the CIA was sowing disinformation, right?

I'm aware of that. He made his strongest statements well after he left the CIA.

I just don't understand how someone could take the 'Official' statement at face value when most of the information is still classified almost 60 years later.

 

[bongsaway]

Fair enough... since I haven't seen it, I'm not coming to a conclusion about the documentary either way... but if the subject of the documentary doesn't strike me as credible on basic, easily-verifiable facts, then why should I care what he claims on more complicated, harder to prove ones?

Does the documentary provide any corroborating evidence to back up his assertions? Or does it just relay his version of events?

It had the single most unusual piece of evidence to back up the guys story I have ever seen. He said he bit a shell casing and left it on the fence at the grassy knoll which he said is where he shot from. Twenty or thirty years later somebody found the shell casing and sure enough it had a bite mark on it and fit the type of weapon the guy said he used.

 

[Cordelier]

During the fatal hit, Kennedy's head snapped forward and to the right, the same direction his brain bits flew. That means the shooter had to be behind and to the left.

In other words, the shooter was in one of the white buildings not the book depository.

Kennedy was slumped forward and wearing a back brace.

You get a sudden impact like that, and there's no telling what way the body is going to jerk.

 

[Cordelier]

I'm aware of that. He made his strongest statements well after he left the CIA.

I just don't understand how someone could take the 'Official' statement at face value when most of the information is still classified almost 60 years later.

Why do you figure Chuck Colson hired him after he left the CIA?? He wasn't working for the Nixon White House because they wanted a wet work specialist. What they wanted was someone who had expertise in digging up, manufacturing and disseminating dirt on political opponents.

I think it's a mischaracterization to say "most" of the information is still classified. It's probably more accurate to say "some" of it is. It's my assumption that what remains classified has more to do with the investigation of the assassination rather than the circumstances of the assassination itself. Sources and methods.

 

[Cordelier]

It had the single most unusual piece of evidence to back up the guys story I have ever seen. He said he bit a shell casing and left it on the fence at the grassy knoll which he said is where he shot from. Twenty or thirty years later somebody found the shell casing and sure enough it had a bite mark on it and fit the type of weapon the guy said he used.

So you're telling me that not only didn't anyone find this shell casing at the time.... but not a single tourist who passed by the Grassy Knoll for the next couple of decades didn't find it either?

If a prosecutor tried to introduce this shell casing into evidence, they'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

 

[bongsaway]

I don't know. This whole issue has been beaten to death, but there is good reason to suspect that there was way more to the Kennedy Assassination than we were led to believe. Let's start by dumping the bs in the trash.



Face it. Killing Kennedy was not some forces of evil out to kill the Good Guy narrative. Kennedy(s), all of them, were not good guys. That Camelot crap is a myth. John, Bob, Ted and Daddy Kennedy were some exceptionally scummy players. Lots of dead bodies can be traced back to that family.

So, we add that into the other equation I alluded to up in post 91: If Oswald did it, what was the real motive?



My guess is the FBI, CIA and others wanted JFK dead, but not because he was a good guy. No, they had the exact opposite in mind. The family was too powerful. And, now they are dead.

Why’d Oswald Do It? It May All Come Down to a Party in Mexico City.

The order to assassinate the president came from on high. We know this beyond a doubt now, from multiple sources.

slate.com

Some people in the cia at the time hated kennedy and so did the folks who wanted him to invade cuba. They backstabbed him with the bay of pigs invasion telling castro where the location and time of the landing would be. Castro was there waiting for them which is why they got slaughtered.

 

[bongsaway]

I seen it years before. It's BS. All the bullet fragments recovered in the limousine were recovered from the front of the limousine, one fragment actually cracked the interior side of the windshield. Two of the recovered fragments from the front of the limousine had sufficient rifling marks on them to be able match them back to the rifling of the rifle recovered from the 6th floor of the School Book Depository to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. Additional small bullet fragments were recovered from the front and right side of the President's head. None toward the rear of, or the left side of his head. Completely consistent with the final shot being fired from behind and above the President. Over fifty years later no physical has been found whatsoever that would confirm the presence of a second weapon in Dealey Plaza that day. All of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza who said they saw a weapon that day all said they had seen it in the 6th floor window.

We all know the 'official' investigation into the killing was bullcrap so why would you so easily accept the 'official' report that oswald was the lone shooter? My thinking goes like this presuming oswald is indeed the shooter. I'm out to kill the president because I'm a communist lunatic who thinka kennedy is evil. I have this thing all planned out and I'm determined to kill him. The day arrives and I'm in position, the adrenaline is pumping as the limo approaches. I take my first shot and miss, now the adrenalin is really pumping. I have to reacquire my target after using the bolt action rifle, I do and hit him, I use the bolt again, reacquire my target again and hit him all within several seconds. With that scenario oswald would have to have been quite the marksman with nerves of steel. Finally if he had it all planned out, why did he leave the rifle in plain sight? He worked in the building he could have found somewhere to hide it, after all he worked there so his presence there would be normal. He could have just stayed in the building safely.

 

[Cordelier]

We all know the 'official' investigation into the killing was bullcrap so why would you so easily accept the 'official' report that oswald was the lone shooter? My thinking goes like this presuming oswald is indeed the shooter. I'm out to kill the president because I'm a communist lunatic who thinka kennedy is evil. I have this thing all planned out and I'm determined to kill him. The day arrives and I'm in position, the adrenaline is pumping as the limo approaches. I take my first shot and miss, now the adrenalin is really pumping. I have to reacquire my target after using the bolt action rifle, I do and hit him, I use the bolt again, reacquire my target again and hit him all within several seconds. With that scenario oswald would have to have been quite the marksman with nerves of steel. Finally if he had it all planned out, why did he leave the rifle in plain sight? He worked in the building he could have found somewhere to hide it, after all he worked there so his presence there would be normal. He could have just stayed in the building safely.

He did hide the rifle... on the 6th floor, near the staircase, behind some boxes.

What I what to know is what happened to the "curtain rods" Oswald told Wesley Frazier he was carrying to work that morning. They found the bag, but the "curtain rods" seem to have disappeared into history.

 

[bongsaway]

He did hide the rifle... on the 6th floor, near the staircase, behind some boxes.

What I what to know is what happened to the "curtain rods" Oswald told Wesley Frazier he was carrying to work that morning. They found the bag, but the "curtain rods" seem to have disappeared into history.

How do we know he told him any such thing?

 

[Cordelier]

How do we know he told him any such thing?

Why would he lie about that? Also, his testimony was corroborated by his sister who also saw Oswald with the "curtain rods" package. Plus, the bag was found on the Sixth floor. So given all of that, I don't see any reason to doubt Mr. Frazier's version of events, especially given the fact that it isn't disputed by any other witness testimony.

 

[Atomic Kid]

During the fatal hit, Kennedy's head snapped forward and to the right, the same direction his brain bits flew. That means the shooter had to be behind and to the left.

In other words, the shooter was in one of the white buildings not the book depository.

Not quite accurate. Neither of the white buildings were considered to be alternative sniper positions as those would involve an oblique angle for which only the left side of the President's head in that sightline and it would been necessary from that angle to lead in front of the target to achieve a hit. The secondary position considered to be the most likely aside from the Texas Schoolbook Depository was the Dall-Tex Building. Which doesn't appear in the figure you posted but it would be on the street corner opposite from the County Records. And much like the Schoolbook Depository provides a pretty much straight shot. Albeit a longer one.



Also the motorcycle cops who were struck by debris ejected from the President's head were on the rearward left side of the limousine. Not the right.

 

[Atomic Kid]

It had the single most unusual piece of evidence to back up the guys story I have ever seen. He said he bit a shell casing and left it on the fence at the grassy knoll which he said is where he shot from. Twenty or thirty years later somebody found the shell casing and sure enough it had a bite mark on it and fit the type of weapon the guy said he used.

No one found any such casing. The area along the picket fence on the railyard side of it had been recently cleared and landscaped. There were no evidence, such as footprints, discarded cigarettes, wrappers, or what have you, indicative that anyone been there awaiting the motorcade. No cops on the overpass or in the motorcade who rushed toward the area of the picket fence and rail yard parking lot saw anyone there at all, much less anyone with a weapon, or even anyone fleeing away from it. That area is wide open and no one saw anyone or anything there whatsoever. Before or afterwards

 

[Atomic Kid]

Some people in the cia at the time hated kennedy and so did the folks who wanted him to invade cuba. They backstabbed him with the bay of pigs invasion telling castro where the location and time of the landing would be. Castro was there waiting for them which is why they got slaughtered.

Why would they have hated Kennedy? He had only been in office barely 3 months before he allowed the Bay of Pigs operation greenlighted by the previous Eisenhower Administration to go forward. The problem was that Castro's intelligence service, which was probably among the best in the hemisphere, had managed to infiltrate the Cuban ex-patriot group that had been assembled for the invasion. So yeah Castro knew a lot about it before it had even begun. Perhaps not everything, but enough to be able to be prepared. Not to mention the operation was really poorly executed.

 

[Indrob]

Why would they have hated Kennedy? He had only been in office barely 3 months before he allowed the Bay of Pigs operation greenlighted by the previous Eisenhower Administration to go forward. The problem was that Castro's intelligence service, which was probably among the best in the hemisphere, had managed to infiltrate the Cuban ex-patriot group that had been assembled for the invasion. So yeah Castro knew a lot about it before it had even begun. Perhaps not everything, but enough to be able to be prepared. Not to mention the operation was really poorly executed.

Kennedy had a lot of enemies and him and his family didn't just show up those 3 months. They were a powerful family well before JFK took office.

Kennedy wanted to share information with the Soviets. This didn't sit well with the CIA and other intelligence/military/political organizations.

 

[bongsaway]

Why would he lie about that? Also, his testimony was corroborated by his sister who also saw Oswald with the "curtain rods" package. Plus, the bag was found on the Sixth floor. So given all of that, I don't see any reason to doubt Mr. Frazier's version of events, especially given the fact that it isn't disputed by any other witness testimony.

People lie for a variety of reasons.

 

[bongsaway]

No one found any such casing. The area along the picket fence on the railyard side of it had been recently cleared and landscaped. There were no evidence, such as footprints, discarded cigarettes, wrappers, or what have you, indicative that anyone been there awaiting the motorcade. No cops on the overpass or in the motorcade who rushed toward the area of the picket fence and rail yard parking lot saw anyone there at all, much less anyone with a weapon, or even anyone fleeing away from it. That area is wide open and no one saw anyone or anything there whatsoever. Before or afterwards

I think the shell casing was found in the eighties or nineties. The guy explains in the doc how he did it. Why do you suppose all of those folks were rushing towards the fence on the grassy knoll? He also said he casually walked away.

 

[bongsaway]

Why would they have hated Kennedy? He had only been in office barely 3 months before he allowed the Bay of Pigs operation greenlighted by the previous Eisenhower Administration to go forward. The problem was that Castro's intelligence service, which was probably among the best in the hemisphere, had managed to infiltrate the Cuban ex-patriot group that had been assembled for the invasion. So yeah Castro knew a lot about it before it had even begun. Perhaps not everything, but enough to be able to be prepared. Not to mention the operation was really poorly executed.

Believe what you wish. I however will probably never believe oswald was the lone shooter.