[W:220,1256]***Trinitarianism = Polytheism

[Daisy]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Ah so you cant refute what I said and instead resort to making personal attacks. I guess nobody is surprised about that. Now are you actually going to stick to the topic or youre just going to be like yourself, as always?

Nah, scolding is his specialty, not subject matter...

 

[OlNate]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Nah, scolding is his specialty, not subject matter...

Says the lady who feels free to tell every other Christian they are wrong, and that only JW's are right. I'll let you figure out on your own how much your "scathing remark" matters.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Simply no.

You have that backwards. Christianity is only polythiestic if you don't believe in the trinity.
As Christianity states there is only 1 God.

God is a spirit and does not have a body like man.
God as scripture has shown has 3 distinct personalities. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
All three in unity and 1 God.

there is nothing polytheistic about it.

the only way that you can treat it as polytheistic is to consider them each a God and individual people not connected to each other similar to what mormons and JW's teach.
Christ is not a created person. he was with God and Was God John 1:1.

I agree with you that the trinity concept works around the 1 vs. 3 problem, but you have to admit it's quite confusing. Consider when Jesus was in the womb, walking the earth, crying out to his father on the cross - seemingly not understanding why he was there.

And : The trinity is extrapolated. It's not described directly in the bible. That's one reason JW's, etc. don't buy it.

 

[ludin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

I agree with you that the trinity concept works around the 1 vs. 3 problem, but you have to admit it's quite confusing. Consider when Jesus was in the womb, walking the earth, crying out to his father on the cross - seemingly not understanding why he was there.

And : The trinity is extrapolated. It's not described directly in the bible. That's one reason JW's, etc. don't buy it.

Correct there is no mention specifically of the trinity in the bible.
The issue came on in the first council when the discussion of the divinity of Christ arose.

The issue is very much a confusing one because in order for it to make sense you have to be able to think like God and we can't.
we can gain some aspect of what is or isn't but it is highly limited.

Christ knew why he was there. he said it throughout his 3 year ministry.
You also have to realize also that Christ nature is a duelism.

When he was on earth he retained being God but put aside his title of the Son of God and instead claimed
the title the Son of Man.

His cry on the cross was because for the first time in his life Christ lost connection to the father. For the first time in his life Christ felt the pain of sin and death.
He had separation from something he had always been in the presence of.

the issue with the JW's is that if they don't consider Christ to be God then they have a polytheistic view.
as christ himself stated full authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

The other thing is God has stated that he will not share his glory with anyone. yet that is exactly what we see happening to Christ in the New testament and more so in
the book of revelation.

We have the same points that was raise at the council. If Christ was not "God" or part of the God head why would God not only share his power but his glory.
next we have the holy spirit. Christ said i go so that one that is greater than me can come.

and i will be with you always. He was referring the holy spirit.

He is giving honor, glory and praise in a single statement to the holy spirit.
that could not happen if they were not part of the same essence that is God.

 

[OlNate]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

I agree with you that the trinity concept works around the 1 vs. 3 problem, but you have to admit it's quite confusing. Consider when Jesus was in the womb, walking the earth, crying out to his father on the cross - seemingly not understanding why he was there.

And : The trinity is extrapolated. It's not described directly in the bible. That's one reason JW's, etc. don't buy it.

I'll admit it's quite confusing...hehe... Christianity can be very confusing, hence the heavy emphasis on faith. Trying to understand the workings of God, from a believer's perspective, is a huge task.

Ultimately I wonder how important it is. Folks tend to get caught up in differences that are rather small in the grand scheme of things. Saying you have faith is an admission that you don't have facts, in the provable sense. Bickering about things like the Trinity, how old the earth is, whether to baptize as babies or adults, these are all dividing ideologies that ultimately have no impact on salvation.

Edited, cuz I hit submit too early:

I mean, I could provide this link:

https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/theology/trinity.php#.XFBvyjbruAg

And someone like Elvira could probably provide an equally long list, albeit out of the JW authored Bible, and we could fight forever.

But if her list brings her closer to God, and my list brings me closer to God, then what's the fight about?

 

[ludin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

I'll admit it's quite confusing...hehe... Christianity can be very confusing, hence the heavy emphasis on faith. Trying to understand the workings of God, from a believer's perspective, is a huge task.

Ultimately I wonder how important it is. Folks tend to get caught up in differences that are rather small in the grand scheme of things. Saying you have faith is an admission that you don't have facts, in the provable sense. Bickering about things like the Trinity, how old the earth is, whether to baptize as babies or adults, these are all dividing ideologies that ultimately have no impact on salvation.

Edited, cuz I hit submit too early:

I mean, I could provide this link:

https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/theology/trinity.php#.XFBvyjbruAg

And someone like Elvira could probably provide an equally long list, albeit out of the JW authored Bible, and we could fight forever.

But if her list brings her closer to God, and my list brings me closer to God, then what's the fight about?

The issue is that Christ died for the sins of the world.
No man comes to the father but through me.

This is one of the main tenants and pillars of Christianity.

without the acceptance of who Christ is takes away from what he did and who he said he was.
the issue with JW's and the watchtower is that they go to a whole new level of dishonest to push their agenda.

They 100% change words in the bible out of context and where no other greek scholar does.
in fact plenty of greek scholars have called them out on it.

The same goes for Mormons they do not believe that Christ is God either, but he is literally the son of god.
these types of things cannot go unlooked nor can they go unchallenged.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Correct there is no mention specifically of the trinity in the bible.
The issue came on in the first council when the discussion of the divinity of Christ arose.

The issue is very much a confusing one because in order for it to make sense you have to be able to think like God and we can't.
we can gain some aspect of what is or isn't but it is highly limited.

Christ knew why he was there. he said it throughout his 3 year ministry.
You also have to realize also that Christ nature is a duelism.

When he was on earth he retained being God but put aside his title of the Son of God and instead claimed
the title the Son of Man.

His cry on the cross was because for the first time in his life Christ lost connection to the father. For the first time in his life Christ felt the pain of sin and death.
He had separation from something he had always been in the presence of.

the issue with the JW's is that if they don't consider Christ to be God then they have a polytheistic view.
as christ himself stated full authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

The other thing is God has stated that he will not share his glory with anyone. yet that is exactly what we see happening to Christ in the New testament and more so in
the book of revelation.

We have the same points that was raise at the council. If Christ was not "God" or part of the God head why would God not only share his power but his glory.
next we have the holy spirit. Christ said i go so that one that is greater than me can come.

and i will be with you always. He was referring the holy spirit.

He is giving honor, glory and praise in a single statement to the holy spirit.
that could not happen if they were not part of the same essence that is God.

Thanks for that explanation. I can understand that as stated, but I also understand the JW and other literalists issues with it.

My hat's off to the council for figuring out that tapestry using what's in the books of the bible. Not a light lift, in my opinion.

Interesting stuff to ponder...

 

[OlNate]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

The issue is that Christ died for the sins of the world.
No man comes to the father but through me.

This is one of the main tenants and pillars of Christianity.

without the acceptance of who Christ is takes away from what he did and who he said he was.
the issue with JW's and the watchtower is that they go to a whole new level of dishonest to push their agenda.

They 100% change words in the bible out of context and where no other greek scholar does.
in fact plenty of greek scholars have called them out on it.

The same goes for Mormons they do not believe that Christ is God either, but he is literally the son of god.
these types of things cannot go unlooked nor can they go unchallenged.

Yes they can. People believe all kinds of things all over the world. Even among Christian denominations who understand the Trinity there are many differences. Yes, the Trinity is a fundamental precept of Christianity, to the vast majority of Christians. But if there are people who love, and have faith, in God, regardless to how they visualized the "Org chart", God's will is done. The only time we get into trouble is when we brawl over who is "more right". Ultimately that's a conversation between God and every person, on an individual basis.

We can, and should, state our beliefs, give our reasoning, as the Spirit moves us. Beyond that:

Titus 3:10 ESV
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,

 

[ludin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Thanks for that explanation. I can understand that as stated, but I also understand the JW and other literalists issues with it.

My hat's off to the council for figuring out that tapestry using what's in the books of the bible. Not a light lift, in my opinion.

Interesting stuff to ponder...

One thing to point out. these were not nice sit down discussions. there was a lot of yelling fighting etc ...
look up a guy name Arianism and Arius. you will find it was similar to what the JW's argue today and was deemed a heresy.

it took them years and years and there were multiple councils and the books they picked were not picked for any reason.
they were specifically picked because the authors could be verified and their contents were consistent with the agreed to
criteria.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

One thing to point out. these were not nice sit down discussions. there was a lot of yelling fighting etc ...
look up a guy name Arianism and Arius. you will find it was similar to what the JW's argue today and was deemed a heresy.

it took them years and years and there were multiple councils and the books they picked were not picked for any reason.
they were specifically picked because the authors could be verified and their contents were consistent with the agreed to
criteria.

I know that. People died in the process, I believe.

I assume the winners were the ones who decided the "agreed to criteria". The process seems a little removed from the idea that God's hand guided the construction of it all to me, but I know people argue that it was.

 

[devildavid]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

There can, but as I said our concept of numbers, of one vs many, has no relevance on higher dimensional levels.

Sure it does. The difference between monotheism and polytheism.

 

[ludin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

I know that. People died in the process, I believe.

I assume the winners were the ones who decided the "agreed to criteria". The process seems a little removed from the idea that God's hand guided the construction of it all to me, but I know people argue that it was.

you should look up the process on how it was done it was very interesting.
it was probably one of the most comprehensive investigations in history.

1st church history is actually really amazing and really interesting you should do some research into it.
you will learn quite a bit.

You will find that all of the people that wrote or had a hand in writing the new testament were connected either to the
disciples directly or knew Christ himself.

it is pretty amazing.

 

[<alt>doxygen]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

you should look up the process on how it was done it was very interesting.
it was probably one of the most comprehensive investigations in history.

1st church history is actually really amazing and really interesting you should do some research into it.
you will learn quite a bit.

You will find that all of the people that wrote or had a hand in writing the new testament were connected either to the
disciples directly or knew Christ himself.

it is pretty amazing.

What do you recommend?

The council started around 325AD, which puts that long after Jesus and anyone who met him were gone. There's even a lot of question as to the actual authorship of the gospels, at least among non-apologist historians. That's a completely different debate, but if you have a reference you think is good describing church history over the 1st 400 years, AD, I'd be interested to know what it is.

 

[RobertU]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

The Trinity can be traced back to Egyptian mythology in which the sun-god Re (or Ra) expresses himself in three persons:

I am Khepera in the morning, Ra at noontide, and Atmu in the evening.

The Trinity might also be hidden in the subtext of popular culture. In Star Wars, Darth Vader is the authoritarian God of the Old Testament, Luke Skywalker is the Son, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is the Holy Ghost.

 

[calamity]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

According to the bible, there is only one god, yet somehow the believers in the trinity seems to think that this god has three different persons, and are distinct as well.

Basic math will tell you that 1+1+1=3, yet trinitarians somehow think it is just one.

This so-called problem has been with Christianity since the very beginning of the religion and it has never been resolved. In fact, it is the reason why there are so many different denominations, its an inherent flaw that makes the trinity unworkable since it has no sound logical basis, and is therefore incompatible with the modern world and basic thinking in general.

The trinity can only work if you believe in 3 gods, and thats polytheism, not monotheism.

Correct, belief that Jesus is divine is a huge violation of the original 10 Commandments, and 100% diametric to the concept of monotheism.

 

[ludin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

What do you recommend?

The council started around 325AD, which puts that long after Jesus and anyone who met him were gone. There's even a lot of question as to the actual authorship of the gospels, at least among non-apologist historians. That's a completely different debate, but if you have a reference you think is good describing church history over the 1st 400 years, AD, I'd be interested to know what it is.

Early Church Fathers

here is the link to some of the 1st century church fathers.
Polycarp
Clement of Rome etc ...

that right there is a good place to start and you can research them and some of their links back to
the disciples.

 

[ludin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

The Trinity can be traced back to Egyptian mythology in which the sun-god Re (or Ra) expresses himself in three persons:

I am Khepera in the morning, Ra at noontide, and Atmu in the evening.

The Trinity might also be hidden in the subtext of popular culture. In Star Wars, Darth Vader is the authoritarian God of the Old Testament, Luke Skywalker is the Son, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is the Holy Ghost.

this type of stuff has been debunked more times that i can think but that doesn't stop people from spouting the same stuff over and over again.
the star wars analogy is just laughable.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

this type of stuff has been debunked more times that i can think but that doesn't stop people from spouting the same stuff over and over again.

One could say the same thing about the claims of Christianity.

 

[it's just me]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Oh the irony.

I was debating someone who claimed that god has three personalities, so this isnt about me, if you want to start your own thread go ahead.


According to Judaism and Islam, a single god is indivisible, so once again youre wrong.

And if its three aspects, then a single god has three personalities- therefore a sign of mental illness. Most people with a basic education would have figured this out from my first reply.

And according to Christianity, that's exactly right:

And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

Quit trying to teach theology, you're not very good at it.

 

[Daisy]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Correct, belief that Jesus is divine is a huge violation of the original 10 Commandments, and 100% diametric to the concept of monotheism.

Not really, Jesus can be divine without being God Himself...divine simply means that which belongs to God or pertains to him, that which is godlike or heavenly...which Jesus is...the sin is in saying Jesus is God...

Paul refers to Jesus as being divine..."because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." Colossians 2:9

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

what you posted made not sense. it isn't up to me to dis-jumble your incorrect sentence phrases into something readable.
The Son of God who it also the Son of Man is the mediator.

as the new covenant lies between the Father and the Son.

“Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them”

“For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10

“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).
The only person that God is capable of making a lasting covenant with would be himself.

why?

no one else but him could uphold it.

if you want to doubt the divinity of Christ you are free to do so but it is very much supported.
https://www.tms.edu/blog/11-reasons-affirm-deity-christ/

not that you will read it.

that makes absoultely no sense.. because it is a mediator between God and man is god?? That would be a strong indication that he writer of 1 timothy did not consider Jesus to be God. It is strong evidence against the trinity.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Why would you expect gods to be on our level, with our restrictions? They are not earth animals, they don't live in our spatial and temporal dimensions.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Why would you expect gods to be on our level, with our restrictions? They are not earth animals, they don't live in our spatial and temporal dimensions.

Why would you expect gods to exist?

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Not really, Jesus can be divine without being God Himself...divine simply means that which belongs to God or pertains to him, that which is godlike or heavenly...which Jesus is...the sin is in saying Jesus is God...

Paul refers to Jesus as being divine..."because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." Colossians 2:9

The term "divine" in the NWT was mistranslated from the original Greek use of Θεότητος (Theotētos), which refers specifically to a manifest deity. Oddly enough, the use of Θεότητος in the original texts is indicative of a feminine singular association - not masculine.


OM

 

[Omega Man]

Re: Trinitarianism = Polytheism

Why would you expect gods to be on our level, with our restrictions? They are not earth animals, they don't live in our spatial and temporal dimensions.

Or so humanoids in our spatial and temporal dimension have suggested. Too bad these gods can't be bothered to simply manifest themselves to enlighten us in no uncertain terms. Or maybe they do, and we just don't see or hear them. Maybe it's the wind in the trees.


OM