Urine test for welfare applicants

[DeeJayH]

How about all men who go on welfare have a vasectomy? Or are only the women to be subjected to a totalitarian form of government.

well since it is supposed to be her body, her choice, it is her responsibility

 

[RightinNYC]

How about all men who go on welfare have a vasectomy? Or are only the women to be subjected to a totalitarian form of government.

Well, just as a side note, there's a big difference between an irreversible surgical procedure and a day to day medication. And as DeeJayH pointed out, you can promote efforts to convince men not to have children as much as you want, but when the fact comes down to it, the final decision rests in the hand of the woman.

 

[DeeJayH]

actually it is reversible

Vasectomy Reversal - Questions and Answers on Reverse Vasectomies

but it is still a medical procedure compared to a tic tac

 

[Cephus]

The men those women had sex with are equally as responsible, if they had worn a condom, then even if the women forgot to take a pill the chances of pregnancy would have been far less, unless a man wants a child they should always wear a condom. You in both your posts clearly blame women for the pregnancy because they forgot to take a pill and not their partner who should have also been wearing a a condom, it came out sounding very misogynistic.

No, you just insist on taking it that way. I've already pointed out that I specifically mentioned condoms, but apparently, you've got convenient vision and don't want to see things that mess with your preconceived notions. Of course it's everyone's responsibility, who ever said otherwise?

Maybe in your world people are perfect but in reality they aren't.

When you're living off the public dole, you'd better try a little harder IMO.

Are you advocating throwing people into the streets because they may not be perfect and forget to take a pill or their BC method may fail?

No, I'm advocating forcing people to take responsibility for their own lives. Sorry you have a problem with that.

 

[Cephus]

Well, just as a side note, there's a big difference between an irreversible surgical procedure and a day to day medication. And as DeeJayH pointed out, you can promote efforts to convince men not to have children as much as you want, but when the fact comes down to it, the final decision rests in the hand of the woman.

I wouldn't say that, the real problem, as I see it, is the culture that's sprung up in the poor communities that say that screwing anything that moves is a good thing. When you have women having 5 children by 5 different fathers, none of whom are at all involved in their children's upbringing, that's a problem. Now like it or not, it's one thing if you have the money to support all these children, but when it's my tax money you're spending on your own irresponsibility, then someone has to step in and stop you.

And that goes for irresponsible men *AND* women alike.

 

[DeeJayH]

When you're living off the public dole, you'd better try a little harder IMO.

if they did, they probably would not be on the public dole in the first place, or atleast they would use it like it was intended. As a safety net to help them get back on their feet

no matter what system you set up, some of a population will always find a way to abuse the system and get something for nothing

 

[Cephus]

if they did, they probably would not be on the public dole in the first place, or atleast they would use it like it was intended. As a safety net to help them get back on their feet

no matter what system you set up, some of a population will always find a way to abuse the system and get something for nothing

That's true, which is why the welfare system needs to forcibly put people back on their feet, force them to be responsible or penalize them heavily for failing. It's one thing if you're screwing up on your own dime, but when you're doing it on mine, I expect changes.

 

[jamesrage]

No urine test is 100% accurate.

I sometimes take Allegra-D, which I have since found out can be turned into meth?! I could come up positive on a urine test by innocently taking a doctor prescribed medication.

If there are prescription drugs out there can cause a false positive for illegals,then surely you can provide proof you are taking prescription drugs.

This is an outrageous, impractical

I do not think it is outrageous or impractical.

and prejudicial idea.

How is it a prejudicial idea?

A better idea would be to make them work for their welfare money...social services, day cares, general trash pickup, restoring neighborhoods...etc.

The idea of welfare is to get someone back on their feet,if they are doing community service it might be hard for them to get a real job.

 

[Cephus]

The idea of welfare is to get someone back on their feet,if they are doing community service it might be hard for them to get a real job.

It's supposed to catch you when you fall and help you to get back on your feet, unfortunately it actually penalizes you for trying to be responsible for yourself. While I know this is off-topic (hey, the whole thread has been), my idea for welfare reform was always to make it limited in duration, no more than 2-3 years except for those who are medically unable to ever work again. During those 2-3 years, you are required to get an education or learn a trade, you are required to do some work and you are required to be responsible for yourself while on the welfare rolls. If you will not do all of those things, then you don't deserve welfare, you've failed not only yourself but your society.

 

[Willow]

actually it is reversible

Vasectomy Reversal - Questions and Answers on Reverse Vasectomies

but it is still a medical procedure compared to a tic tac

A tic tac. You seriously call BC pill, a pill with potential life threatening side effects, a tic tac? Some of the side effects include blood clots, bone density loss, liver tumors, heart attacks, etcetc.. boy that's the kind of tic tac I want to eat every day.:roll: But of course I'm over 35 so I can't take it anyway, women over 35 should not take "tic tacs". It can kill them.

Of course it's everyone's responsibility, who ever said otherwise?

You did actually by hysterically blaming women for forgetting to take a pill when if a condom had been used as well as a BC pill, the likelihood of pregnancy would have been much less. Pregnancy prevention is not the sole responsibility of one person, it takes two.

No, I'm advocating forcing people to take responsibility for their own lives. Sorry you have a problem with that

.
Thanks for the personal insult.:roll:
Read my first post to this subject, I firmly advocate making education, classes on interviewing and job skills etc to get people off of welfare mandatory. I also advocate forcing both parents to be financially responsible for their children. For every single mother there is a single father and both of them are responsible for that child financially, if the father is working and the mother is on welfare, the father needs to pay the system for his share of that child and vice versa. And the system needs to have harsher penalties for people who have children who are on the system but are not responsible for them financially.

During those 2-3 years, you are required to get an education or learn a trade, you are required to do some work and you are required to be responsible for yourself while on the welfare rolls.

That I agree with.

 

[1069]

A tic tac. You seriously call BC pill, a pill with potential life threatening side effects, a tic tac? Some of the side effects include blood clots, bone density loss, liver tumors, heart attacks, etcetc.. boy that's the kind of tic tac I want to eat every day. But of course I'm over 35 so I can't take it anyway, women over 35 should not take "tic tacs". It can kill them.

Yeah, I'd like to see how well men would do, taking that "tic tac".
I'd like to see how they'd feel about growing breasts and developing fatal blood clots in their legs.

So, so sickeningly cavalier about women's bodies.

Do you think synthetic hormones are something to play around with??

Do you understand how desperate women are to control their fertility, that they'd endure the risks and side effects of such a drug?

Do you understand that hormonal contraception is contraindicated for smokers, older women, women with pre-existing health conditions, women who take any sort of medication regularly?

Yeah. A tic tac. :?

You don't think we're human, really, do you?

 

[RightinNYC]

Yeah, I'd like to see how well men would do, taking that "tic tac".
I'd like to see how they'd feel about growing breasts and developing fatal blood clots in their legs.

So, so sickeningly cavalier about women's bodies.

Do you think synthetic hormones are something to play around with??

Do you understand how desperate women are to control their fertility, that they'd endure the risks and side effects of such a drug?

Do you understand that hormonal contraception is contraindicated for smokers, older women, women with pre-existing health conditions, women who take any sort of medication regularly?

Yeah. A tic tac. :?

You don't think we're human, really, do you?

Appeal to emotion a bit much? If you could refrain from accusing every person who suggests that people should use BC more frequently as being "sickeningly cavalier about womens bodies," your argument would be a lot more compelling.

I don't give a **** what type of BC people use, its simply whatever is easiest/most effective/most cost effective. It just so happens that currently, the methods that fall in this category are the pill/long term female implants. If you don't want to use that, fine by me. I don't care if you want to use female condoms, the rhythm method, or prayer, but if people decide to use inferior BC or are inconsistent in staying protected, the rest of us shouldn't be responsible for the consequences of their decisions.

 

[DeeJayH]

Yeah, I'd like to see how well men would do, taking that "tic tac".
I'd like to see how they'd feel about growing breasts and developing fatal blood clots in their legs.

So, so sickeningly cavalier about women's bodies.

Do you think synthetic hormones are something to play around with??

Do you understand how desperate women are to control their fertility, that they'd endure the risks and side effects of such a drug?

Do you understand that hormonal contraception is contraindicated for smokers, older women, women with pre-existing health conditions, women who take any sort of medication regularly?

Yeah. A tic tac. :?

You don't think we're human, really, do you?

I have no problem with women
you however i find to be sub-human
as to your crying

method effectiveness: is the Pearl index number for use under perfect conditions. The method effectiveness Pearl index for the Pill has been measured as low as 0.3 and as high as 1.25, which means that under ideal conditions, anywhere from 0.3 to 1.25 out of 100 users will become pregnant during one year of perfect use (Pearl index = 0.3 to 1.25).

and yet there are millions of abortions :roll: because protection is not 100%
BULLSHIT

Different studies have found different risks of side effects. Some sources have found that the majority (about 60%) of women report no side effects at all, and the vast majority of those who do, have only minor effects.[55] Other studies have found that up to half of women who try the pill discontinue due to side effects.[56]

Combined oral contraceptive pill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OH THE HORROR
why would anyone subject themselves to such a horror
60% have little or no side effects THE HORROR.

MORE RANTINGS OF THE MILITANT FANATICS with no real substance

 

[1069]

long term female implants

If you're referring to Norplant, it's off the market now, because it caused major clinical depression, heavy, uncontrollable bleeding, and ovarian cysts.
If you're referring to IUDs, they are typically medically contraindicated for women who have not had children, as the insertion process can result in severe pain and cervical lacerations.

In truth, I don't think you have a clue what you're babbling about, but that doesn't stop you.

Women will use whatever they feel like, thanks for the pep talk.
They would've, even without it.

I'm sure that they, in conjunction with their gynocologists, are in the best positions to decide which method of birth control, if any, is safest for them.
I doubt they need your help- nor DeeJayH's, nor the US government's- in making that call.

Why don't you and Deej go have a tic tac.

 

[rivrrat]

MORE RANTINGS OF THE MILITANT FANATICS with no real substance

Bullcrap. I could only wish that you suffered the consequences I do taking the pill so you could at least have some perspective. (nausea, migraine headaches, and constant, painful breast soreness) Not to mention that due to my ever increasing age, I'm going to have to do something else about birth control very soon as continuing to take it is placing an ever increasing risk of stroke and blood clots that my doc is concerned about. Not to mention the increased risk of certain cancers that I've already had a problem with. I am, quite literally, risking my life by taking the pill. It has become such a concern to me that I'm looking into getting my tubes tied, but only if the surgery can be successfully reversed. I'm going to have to use it as a temporary measure since other forms of birth control are too dangerous and the side effects are more than I want to cope with.

Yes, the pill is effective when taken correctly (the exact same time every day and making sure that no other medication you take affects it - and many OTC and prescribed medicines do) Doctors aren't always clear about what medicines affect the pill. I got pregnant while on the pill because my doc prescribed antibiotics that interfered with the pill's effectiveness. *I* didn't know that they did, neither was I told that they did when I got the prescription or when I got it filled. The result? Pregnancy. Even just recently I was prescribed antibiotics by my doc and he never mentioned anything about them conflicting with the BC pill he also prescribes me. I had the foresight (due to previous experience) to ask the pharmacist about the two medications, though. Sure enough, the antibiotics prescribed decreased the effectiveness of the pill and the pharmacist recommended using another form of birth control. So, it's not always stupidity, or laziness, or lack of responsibility. Sometimes it's just ignorance since not all of us are doctors.

 

[RightinNYC]

If you're referring to Norplant, it's off the market now, because it caused major clinical depression, heavy, uncontrollable bleeding, and ovarian cysts.
If you're referring to IUDs, they are typically medically contraindicated for women who have not had children, as the insertion process can result in severe pain and cervical lacerations.

In truth, I don't think you have a clue what you're babbling about, but that doesn't stop you.

Oh really?

Implanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe if you spent less time writing lengthy screeds about how anyone who disagreed with you was a moron and more time paying attention to the world around you, you would have a better idea of what you're talking about.

Women will use whatever they feel like, thanks for the pep talk.
They would've, even without it.

I'm sure that they, in conjunction with their gynocologists, are in the best positions to decide which method of birth control, if any, is safest for them.
I doubt they need your help- nor DeeJayH's, nor the US government's- in making that call.

Why don't you and Deej go have a tic tac.

Did you bother to read anything I wrote, or did you simply see that I contradicted you on one point and then decide to attack from there?

I said quite clearly that I don't care what birth control anyone uses. I don't know what logic you're applying to twist that into me saying that women need my help or the governments in deciding what they should use if they choose to use any, but it's not very good.

To summarize, so you don't mischaracterize my stance again:

I don't care if anyone, man or woman, uses BC. I also don't think that anyone, man or woman, should believe that if they have an unplanned child that the rest of society should be responsible for paying for it. Do what you want, and take responsibility for it.

 

[1069]

Implanon. Lovely. Another tic tac, presumably. An implantable tic tac.
Let's see here:

"There are notable side effects caused by Implanon that occur in some women. Irregular periods, headaches, acne, weight gain and abdominal pain were among the most commonly reported side effects in clinical trials.

Eleven percent of women had Implanon removed because of irregular menstrual bleeding, which can include excessive menstrual bleeding. Some women may have no menstrual period at all while using Implanon.


It is not known whether Implanon changes a woman's risk for breast cancer.

Failure rate for Implanon was reported at 0.1%. Most cases of failure were due to incorrect insertion or insertion during pregnancy. In comparison, surgical sterilization has a failure rate of 0.2%.

Undesireable effects that may occur include acne, headache, weight gain, breast tenderness, hair loss, mood changes, changes in libido, and abdominial pain. Vaginal bleeding may occur at irregular intervals during the use of Implanon. Some patients do not experience any bleeding at all. It is important to have regular medical check ups, because while irregular bleeding is a common side effect of Implanon, it may rarely be caused by other medical conditions."

Complications which can occur include:

* impalpability of implant
* broken or damaged implant
* slight migration
* fibrosis.

If Implanon is "impalpable"—cannot be felt—an ultrasound must be performed. Surgery under local or general anesthesia may be required to remove an impalpable Implanon implant, especially if it is broken, damaged, has migrated, or is deeply embedded in scar tissue or fibrosis.

In rare cases, the increase in hormone levels resulting from Implanon has been linked to various forms of mental illness including depression, mood disorders and psychosis. This is likely to be the result of deep insertion into the muscle, and associated damage to the implant. Users experiencing a sudden change in mood, personality or motivation should consult their doctor immediately.

(from your link).

You know, I'm sure it irks you people to no end, but my body is precious to me, and I would not risk any of this crap when D&C is safe, painless, effective, available, and not prohibitively expensive.
My husband and I use condoms, and if we don't have any, sometimes we use nothing but withdrawal.
We've had no mishaps in over ten years, but should we have another mishap, I'd have no qualms about having another abortion.

I will not risk my health by allowing myself to be used as a lab rat.
Norplant was supposedly "safe" and look what happened. Now it's been pulled from the market, after screwing people up for fifteen years.
I don't see that Implanon is much different.
They're not even making much of a pretense about its safety.
Forget about it. I love myself, and so I don't put poisons in my body.
I don't take potent long-term drugs with unknown health effects.
Why should I, when I'm not sick?

 

[Willow]

Oh really?

Implanon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe if you spent less time writing lengthy screeds about how anyone who disagreed with you was a moron and more time paying attention to the world around you, you would have a better idea of what you're talking about.

Try again ~

Implanon Disclaimer

Pregnancy must be excluded before inserting IMPLANON™. IMPLANON™ should not be used in women who have the following conditions: known or suspected pregnancy, current or past history of thrombosis or thromboembolic disorders, hepatic tumors (benign or malignant) or active liver disease, undiagnosed abnormal genital bleeding, known or suspected carcinoma of the breast (or a personal history of breast cancer), or hypersensitivity to any of the components of IMPLANON™.

Serious consequences may be associated with the insertion and removal of IMPLANON™. Failure to insert IMPLANON™ properly may go unnoticed unless the implant is palpated immediately after insertion. Undetected failure to insert IMPLANON™ may lead to an unintended pregnancy. Deep insertions may lead to difficult or impossible removals, which may result in the need for a surgical procedure in an operating room in order to remove IMPLANON™. Any of the possible complications of surgery may occur. In postmarketing use there have been cases of failure to localize and remove the implant, probably due to deep insertion. Failure to remove IMPLANON™ may result in infertility, ectopic pregnancy, or inability to stop a drug-related adverse event. In clinical trials, 1.0% of patients had complications at implant insertion and 1.7% had complications at implant removal.

The use of hormonal contraceptives is associated with increased risks of several serious cardiovascular conditions including myocardial infarction, stroke, venous thromboembolism, deep venous thrombosis, retinal vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism. IMPLANON™ should be removed in the event of a thrombosis. Consider removal of IMPLANON™ in the event of long-term immobilization due to surgery or illness. Cigarette smoking increases the risk of serious cardiovascular side effects from the use of hormonal contraceptives. Women who use hormonal contraceptives should be strongly advised not to smoke.

I'd rather take a "tic tac":roll:

 

[RightinNYC]

You know, I'm sure it irks you people to no end,

Actually, I couldn't care less, but again, thanks for putting words in my mouth and lumping me with an amorphous group.

but my body is precious to me, and I would not risk any of this crap when D&C is safe, painless, effective, available, and not prohibitively expensive.

God, you can't buy comedy like this. When I post a link to a birth control method that has a 99.9% effectiveness rate and low enough risk of side effects that its growing in popularity, you savage me for it.

Then, you praise D&C, claiming its "safe, painless, effective, available, and not prohibitively expensive."

Because medical and non-invasive methods of abortion now exist, and because D&C requires heavy sedation or general anesthesia and has higher risks of complication, the procedure has been declining as a method of abortion. The World Health Organization recommends D&C as a method of abortion only when manual vacuum aspiration is unavailable. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, D&C only accounted for 2.4% of abortions in the United States in the year 2002, down from 23.4% in 1972.

:lol: So you decry something that's gone through rigorous testing and has low risk, and then praise something that's dangerous enough that the WHO actually recommends against using it because it's one of the least safe methods of abortion.

You should really do a bit more research into issues of women's health. As shown by your unawareness of a viable long term implant method and your outdated knowledge about safe abortion methods, there's probably a good bit out there for you to learn.

My husband and I use condoms, and if we don't have any, sometimes we use nothing but withdrawal.
We've had no mishaps in over ten years, but should we have another mishap, I'd have no qualms about having another abortion.

Great, best of luck to you. I don't care what you do unless you want me to pay for it.

I will not risk my health by allowing myself to be used as a lab rat.
Norplant was supposedly "safe" and look what happened. Now it's been pulled from the market, after screwing people up for fifteen years.
I don't see that Implanon is much different.
They're not even making much of a pretense about its safety.
Forget about it. I love myself, and so I don't put poisons in my body.
I don't take potent long-term drugs with unknown health effects.
Why should I, when I'm not sick?

Again, feel free. You keep on operating under the mistaken assumption that I care what you or anyone else chooses to use as a BC method. If you would prefer to use your methods which are not as effective and to undergo your preferred method of abortion, despite the WTO pointing out that it's not safe, then it's your call.

 

[RightinNYC]

Try again ~

Implanon Disclaimer

Have you ever looked at the back of ANY prescription medication before? Everything, from Nyquil to the Pill to Vicodin, has a gigantic disclaimer. Don't know exactly what you're trying to prove here.

I'd rather take a "tic tac":roll:

Then do so.

 

[Southern Belle]

Implanon. Lovely. Another tic tac, presumably. An implantable tic tac.
Let's see here:

"There are notable side effects caused by Implanon that occur in some women. Irregular periods, headaches, acne, weight gain and abdominal pain were among the most commonly reported side effects in clinical trials.

Eleven percent of women had Implanon removed because of irregular menstrual bleeding, which can include excessive menstrual bleeding. Some women may have no menstrual period at all while using Implanon.


It is not known whether Implanon changes a woman's risk for breast cancer.

Failure rate for Implanon was reported at 0.1%. Most cases of failure were due to incorrect insertion or insertion during pregnancy. In comparison, surgical sterilization has a failure rate of 0.2%.

Undesireable effects that may occur include acne, headache, weight gain, breast tenderness, hair loss, mood changes, changes in libido, and abdominial pain. Vaginal bleeding may occur at irregular intervals during the use of Implanon. Some patients do not experience any bleeding at all. It is important to have regular medical check ups, because while irregular bleeding is a common side effect of Implanon, it may rarely be caused by other medical conditions."

Complications which can occur include:

* impalpability of implant
* broken or damaged implant
* slight migration
* fibrosis.

If Implanon is "impalpable"—cannot be felt—an ultrasound must be performed. Surgery under local or general anesthesia may be required to remove an impalpable Implanon implant, especially if it is broken, damaged, has migrated, or is deeply embedded in scar tissue or fibrosis.

In rare cases, the increase in hormone levels resulting from Implanon has been linked to various forms of mental illness including depression, mood disorders and psychosis. This is likely to be the result of deep insertion into the muscle, and associated damage to the implant. Users experiencing a sudden change in mood, personality or motivation should consult their doctor immediately.

(from your link).

You know, I'm sure it irks you people to no end, but my body is precious to me, and I would not risk any of this crap when D&C is safe, painless, effective, available, and not prohibitively expensive.
My husband and I use condoms, and if we don't have any, sometimes we use nothing but withdrawal.
We've had no mishaps in over ten years, but should we have another mishap, I'd have no qualms about having another abortion.

I will not risk my health by allowing myself to be used as a lab rat.
Norplant was supposedly "safe" and look what happened. Now it's been pulled from the market, after screwing people up for fifteen years.
I don't see that Implanon is much different.
They're not even making much of a pretense about its safety.
Forget about it. I love myself, and so I don't put poisons in my body.
I don't take potent long-term drugs with unknown health effects.
Why should I, when I'm not sick?

See that's why I say using your mind is simpler. Self-control. We're humans, animals don't control themselves but we are very capable. BC was this awesome "Yay, we can do anything anytime anywhere" miracle drug (<-- inspired by an actual commercial btw) but it comes with a price to say "No you shouldn't" ^_^ Be married and take it if you really must.

 

[1069]

See that's why I say using your mind is simpler. Self-control. We're humans, animals don't control themselves but we are very capable. BC was this awesome "Yay, we can do anything anytime anywhere" miracle drug (<-- inspired by an actual commercial btw) but it comes with a price to say "No you shouldn't" ^_^ Be married and take it if you really must.

I am married.
I've been married since I was 16 (not always to the same guy).
But I ain't taking it. It's garbage.
I wouldn't recommend anybody else take it either, at least not until it's been on the market awhile and we've ascertained that it's safe.
But of course, everyone is free to do as they will.

 

[Cephus]

Thanks for the personal insult.:roll:

Come on, you call me a mysogynist and then think I'm insulting you?

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[rivrrat]

See that's why I say using your mind is simpler. Self-control. We're humans, animals don't control themselves but we are very capable. BC was this awesome "Yay, we can do anything anytime anywhere" miracle drug (<-- inspired by an actual commercial btw) but it comes with a price to say "No you shouldn't" ^_^ Be married and take it if you really must.

My mind alone won't prevent me from getting pregnant, I can't just will myself to not get pregnant. Neither will being married prevent me from getting pregnant.

 

[dragonslayer]

Like a lot of folks in this nation, I have a job. I work, they pay me. I
pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as they see fit.
In order to get that paycheck. I am required to pass a random urine test, which I have no problem with. What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes to people who don't have to pass a urine test.

Shouldn't one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check, because I have to pass one to earn it for them?

Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with helping someone sit on their butt. Could you imagine how much money the state would save if people had to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check.

Vote on this at Political Majority - U.S. Online Voting System

I know it hard to understand this welfare stuff. It is called taking care of children and the old. OK I know a couple 6 and 7 years old who live on welfare, and are able to eat because of it. I agree they should have to take drug tests and their baby sister should too. I know an old lady, who is in her 70s and she is diabetic. She would die without welfare, and medicaid, yet we should make her take drug tests too.

I know that these children are doing a terrible thing, just being alive. Let cut off aid to everyone. Let's see, Gosh a lot right wing fun. We could have parties and decide who is gonna live or die. If you feed your children, they should have drug tests. How come the right wingers hate so much? Is it something you eat. Maybe you eat to much chinese, or Italian food. I have heard that Pizza is really hard on Right wingers.