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United Ireland

One down one to go, your turn next Gerry.
Two men forced to the table by Clinton. A cause people had lost faith in with the emergence of the Real IRA and other extremists. Forced to break bread with their enemies and give up on a cause that they had killed for decades over.

Hope that feeling of defeat was with him till his last breath.
 
gunner said:
We're not talking about other PMs, we're talking about Thatcher. That some would call Thatcher a terrorist, does not make it so, and the evidence against such a claim would be overwhelming.
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Again, the actions of the Thatcher government in Northern Ireland could easily have been considered terrorist actions by the people "on the other side", aka the side of Martin McGuinness and Co.

And lets not forget Thatcher was a supporter of terrorist regimes like the Pinochet regime and of course the racist South African dictatorship among many others. Dont also forget that the people of Scotland and North East England might consider her a terrorist based on her economic policies that ruined their part of the UK and to this day has a massive scar on that part of the world.

It all comes down to who is doing the accusing. For many people in Northern Ireland, Martin McGuinness was a freedom fighter and hero.
 
Higgins86 said:
One down one to go, your turn next Gerry.
Two men forced to the table by Clinton. A cause people had lost faith in with the emergence of the Real IRA and other extremists. Forced to break bread with their enemies and give up on a cause that they had killed for decades over.

Hope that feeling of defeat was with him till his last breath.
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I've heard this line a lot today, mostly from ex-army types on radio phone-ins. The idea that the peace process was a surrender by the republicans is frankly a bit laughable. To go from having his every word censored and chased around from safe house to safe house to being the Deputy First Minister of a self-ruled Northern Ireland for 10 years is no kind of defeat, however much you'd like to think it was, Higgins.
 
Andalublue said:
I've heard this line a lot today, mostly from ex-army types on radio phone-ins. The idea that the peace process was a surrender by the republicans is frankly a bit laughable. To go from having his every word censored and chased around from safe house to safe house to being the Deputy First Minister of a self-ruled Northern Ireland for 10 years is no kind of defeat, however much you'd like to think it was, Higgins.
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Remind me of the IRAs motto?

Was it our day will come or this will do I guess?
 
PeteEU said:
Again, the actions of the Thatcher government in Northern Ireland could easily have been considered terrorist actions by the people "on the other side", aka the side of Martin McGuinness and Co.

And lets not forget Thatcher was a supporter of terrorist regimes like the Pinochet regime and of course the racist South African dictatorship among many others. Dont also forget that the people of Scotland and North East England might consider her a terrorist based on her economic policies that ruined their part of the UK and to this day has a massive scar on that part of the world.

It all comes down to who is doing the accusing. For many people in Northern Ireland, Martin McGuinness was a freedom fighter and hero.
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Just this. It comes down to who's side you are on.
Ours or theirs.

For many more people in Northern Ireland and indeed the wider country at large, Martin MacGuiness was a baby murderer.
When you choose to defend him, your enmity of us is noted.
 
Baff said:
Just this. It comes down to who's side you are on.
Ours or theirs.

For many more people in Northern Ireland and indeed the wider country at large, Martin MacGuiness was a baby murderer.
When you choose to defend him, your enmity of us is noted.
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Who is this 'us' and 'them' you're talking about? I do hope you're not going to go claiming to speak on behalf of everyone else in the UK.
 
Yes, I feel that that enmity to the IRA is broadly indicative of the UK's attitude towards it. Almost exclusive in fact. And in this example I am quite confident to speak for UK popular opinion.

Did you feel it was a widely popular movement here? It isn't.
Nor has it ever been in Northern Ireland.

Us and them. The UK and those who declared war on the UK.
Choose your side.

IRA = enemy of the UK.
By their own choice and not ours.

A willful enemy who declared war on us and went well out of their way to kill us.

I take it "us" doesn't include you? Perhaps "them" does then.
Choose your side.
 
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Baff said:
Yes, I feel that that enmity to the IRA is broadly indicative of the UK's attitude towards it. Almost exclusive in fact. And in this example I am quite confident to speak for UK popular opinion.

Did you feel it was a widely popular movement here? It isn't.
Nor has it ever been in Northern Ireland.

Us and them. The UK and those who declared war on the UK.
Choose your side.

IRA = enemy of the UK.
By their own choice and not ours.

A willful enemy who declared war on us and went well out of their way to kill us.

I take it "us" doesn't include you? Perhaps "them" does then.
Choose your side.
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oh my gosh "who is not with us is against us" - the silliest argument ever since ancient times to keep masses in line and critical thoughts out of the public. shockes me a Little bit that it still works.
 
He who justifies my enemies enmity of me, joins him in mine.

If you seek to justify my murder and the murder of those like me. You are not my friend. Why ever should I treat you as if you are?
 
Baff said:
He who justifies my enemies enmity of me, joins him in mine.

If you seek to justify my murder and the murder of those like me. You are not my friend. Why ever should I treat you as if you are?
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if you only see your own casualties in a conflikt and the casualties of the "enemy" are all well deserved you are in no way ever able to make peace
 
Tell it to the Japanese. They seem pretty peaceable now.
The most peaceable of all.


I am able to make peace wherever I go. And do.
Superior firepower is mine.

I am not looking for peace with those who seek to kill me, I am looking for war. To kill them first.
Their peace will bring mine.

Best way to end a war? Win it.

Once you respect that I am able to and willing to, your decision to treat me peaceably is better assured.


Not all people are reasonable people. To treat all such people as they are, is a mistake. A weakness.
Think of all the people you have argued with online. Intractable, unpersuadable people.
Not all things can be resolved in a peaceful manner.

And so in war, peace must be made. One side must beat the other. Or it will never end.
If a man is willing to give his life to kill me, then he must be respected for it. And killed before he completes his objective.

Feeling any sympathy for him, doesn't make it any easier. Quite the opposite. It raises the risks.



Mr Walther, Mr Ruger and Mr Mossberg have all brought peace to my life. I thank them for their help in this.
 
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Did the Irish sent normannic knights to England for conquering it in the middle ages? Did the Irisch later took all English lands and gave it to irish settlers? Did they later sell the grain growing on English soil for profit and let big parts of the English population starve in a great famine? Was Cromwell an Irishmen who was sent to England to bring death and terror on the English protestants?

I´m no defender of terror, but to have a fair view on history, you should sometimes wear the shoes of the people on the other side...

ah - win it justfies everthing - the winner writes the history... If you are that darwinistic - please don´t whine about terrorism
 
I'm not from the middle ages. Sorry.
No idea.

The Irish have been invaders in the middle ages. They invaded Scotland. Same deal. Mass murder, butchery. Catholic vs protestant.
Does that make it OK for Scottish people to kill Irish people today? Nope.

Is it OK for me to murder you because of WW1 or WW2?
Nope.

A story from a history book is all the excuse you need to kill me? OK. I can respect that.
I will kill you first.

If we are the target of your terrorism, expect more than just my whining. Expect war.
And yes if you just want to roll over and let me kill you. Assured in my superior moral case for life, then go for it. Please do.
Me, I'll fight.
 
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okay, it goes polemic here - I wrote killing and murdering is never okay - but you say it´s only okay for one side: the winner---
 
It's always OK to kill people if they are trying to kill me or anyone I love more than them.
Always. So rather than defend them to me, kill them please. Show your allegiance to the peaceful and benevolent society in which I live and not to those who would maim and kill our children and ourselves in the name of a story from a history book.

Learn right from wrong. Seriously. Learn right from wrong.


If I'm on the winning side in a life or death battle. Excellent. All is as it should be.
Something wrong with that? Must I be a loser to go to your heaven? A loser to be morally allowed to murder people?
What nonsense is this.
I must be killed rather than kill? Don't be so daft.

I am right to murder those who seek to murder me or those I love. That is all.
Law of the jungle. Come at me that way and you will get what is coming to you.

If you want peace, this is as about as peaceful a country as it comes. Why bring your war here? Don't expect any mercy from me if you do.
Wipe you out quick. Get it done and go back to living peacefully again.
 
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Every time you seek to justify the actions of those who seek to murder me, you are encouraging them to do more.
And that makes you my enemy.

If you will not respect me for my peacefulness, then I will earn your respect in war.
If the only way I can live in peace is for you to fear me, then fear me you shall.

But there is another way. Respect me and my society for the peaceful and benevolent people we are. Respect us and support us in our attempts to stay that way please.
Or else, I shall encourage your enemies to kill you. Justify their faux grievances against you. What goes around, comes around.
We can be allies or we can be enemies.

Make your choice.
 
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german hick said:
Did the Irish sent normannic knights to England for conquering it in the middle ages? Did the Irisch later took all English lands and gave it to irish settlers? Did they later sell the grain growing on English soil for profit and let big parts of the English population starve in a great famine? Was Cromwell an Irishmen who was sent to England to bring death and terror on the English protestants?

I´m no defender of terror, but to have a fair view on history, you should sometimes wear the shoes of the people on the other side...

ah - win it justfies everthing - the winner writes the history... If you are that darwinistic - please don´t whine about terrorism
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Yep. I bought some Herero sandals and wooden shoes worn, I was told, by a slave worker who died in an Essen steel factory of the war effort till he died robbing his progeny of the Euros 5.000 they might have got in the late 90's had he still been alive. Of course, the guy at the antique store might have been lying, but walking in those shoes and sandals gives one a slight shudder all the same.

Is that the way you propose walking? Or were you thinking along wearing the SS. boots of the losers, as my brother once did. He said they were not comfy.

Is that how to get a fair view? ;)
 
Baff said:
Yes, I feel that that enmity to the IRA is broadly indicative of the UK's attitude towards it. Almost exclusive in fact. And in this example I am quite confident to speak for UK popular opinion.
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I'm quite confident that you don't.

Did you feel it was a widely popular movement here? It isn't.
Nor has it ever been in Northern Ireland.

Us and them. The UK and those who declared war on the UK.
Choose your side.

IRA = enemy of the UK.
By their own choice and not ours.

A willful enemy who declared war on us and went well out of their way to kill us.

I take it "us" doesn't include you? Perhaps "them" does then.
Choose your side.
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You write as if the peace process never happened, as if the war carries on. You do not have to choose sides because there is no war. There was a war and there were rights and wrongs on all sides. As I pointed out, the IRA's enemies killed more civilians than they did. That doesn't excuse anyone of anything. Not the IRA, not the Loyalists and not the British security forces, but it's over. The people of Northern Ireland have moved on, while never forgetting, so why can't you?

I've a feeling you were probably one of those calling for the death penalty for convicted IRA terrorists. Given the wholesale corruption of the justice system in the UK in the 1970s I guess you'd have been happy to see the Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 and McGuire 7 all hang because you'd identify them as 'them'. I don't believe for a second that you limit your definition of 'them' to the IRA.
 
joG said:
Yep. I bought some Herero sandals and wooden shoes worn, I was told, by a slave worker who died in an Essen steel factory of the war effort till he died robbing his progeny of the Euros 5.000 they might have got in the late 90's had he still been alive. Of course, the guy at the antique store might have been lying, but walking in those shoes and sandals gives one a slight shudder all the same.

Is that the way you propose walking? Or were you thinking along wearing the SS. boots of the losers, as my brother once did. He said they were not comfy.

Is that how to get a fair view? ;)
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1.) I know you hate Germans - you post it at least once a day
2.) completely lost topic - it´s Ireland here
3.) yes I walk in that shoes, I hope I am able to see the cruel things that happened here - I´m in no way a defender of that evil stuff that happened here or have any problems with jews, russians, poles or any other neighbours who suffered under Germany personally or as Nation in that times remembering themselves and demanding memory. They have the right to.
 
Andalublue said:
I'm quite confident that you don't.


You write as if the peace process never happened, as if the war carries on. You do not have to choose sides because there is no war. There was a war and there were rights and wrongs on all sides. As I pointed out, the IRA's enemies killed more civilians than they did. That doesn't excuse anyone of anything. Not the IRA, not the Loyalists and not the British security forces, but it's over. The people of Northern Ireland have moved on, while never forgetting, so why can't you?

I've a feeling you were probably one of those calling for the death penalty for convicted IRA terrorists. Given the wholesale corruption of the justice system in the UK in the 1970s I guess you'd have been happy to see the Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 and McGuire 7 all hang because you'd identify them as 'them'. I don't believe for a second that you limit your definition of 'them' to the IRA.
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The war does carry on.
NI was bombed the night before last. Policemen were it's target.


Ireland

PSNI officers 'very lucky' to survive Strabane bombing
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/22/psni-officers-very-lucky-to-survive-strabane-bombing


I spoke with the barrister who defended the Birmingham Six back in the day. (They made a movie about him. In the Name of the Father).
He got them off but he felt they were guilty. I am happy for any of them to be dead. They are not heroes or victims to me in any way at all.

In my humble opinion, the peace was made in Northern Ireland.
The IRA lost militarily.
Their leaders became old and sold out their cause to be part of the system they had spent their lives fighting against.
A whole load of self serving lying wankers claimed they were responsible for "the peace" in Northern Ireland, Clintons and Blair. But they weren't. The SAS was.

Believe what you will about the motivation for my enmity. That says more about you than it does me.
You seem to be looking for racists to hate on as far as I can see. Well there is nothing more racist at all than bombing someone solely for their nationality. Nothing more racist at all.
You choose to side with people who have tried to kill me and those in my care. I care not what you think of me. You have made your bed and you will lie in it.
 
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Baff said:
The war does carry on.
NI was bombed the night before last. Policemen were it's target.


Ireland

PSNI officers 'very lucky' to survive Strabane bombing
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/22/psni-officers-very-lucky-to-survive-strabane-bombing
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One or two criminal extremists does not a war make. Sinn Féin and the republican movement en masse see these conspiracies as being as criminal as the unionists do.

I spoke with the barrister who defended the Birmingham Six back in the day. (They made a movie about him. In the Name of the Father).
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I've no idea who you could be referring to. In The Name Of The Father wasn't about a barrister, it was about Gerry Conlon, one of the Guildford Four, and the barrister involved was Gareth Peirce. The lead barrister for the Birmingham Six was Michael Mansfield QC, and he definitely believed in his clients' innocence. Mansfield wasn't featured in the movie you cite. Barrister for their second appeal was Lord Gifford QC, and he absolutely believed, and proved, their innocence.

He got them off but he felt they were guilty.
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You are making this up.

I am happy for any of them to be dead. They are not heroes or victims to me in any way at all.
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Said like a true zealot. Truth be damned.

You seem to be looking for racists to hate on as far as I can see. Well there is nothing more racist at all than bombing someone solely for their nationality. Nothing more racist at all.
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*You'd better quote me calling you a racist, or retract that statement. I don't think your argument is motivated by racism, but by some kind of nationalistic blinkers that prevent you seeing anything justifiable in the republican cause.

You choose to side with people who have tried to kill me and those in my care. I care not what you think of me. You have made your bed and you will lie in it.
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Unlike you, I'm seeing that conflicts have two sides, taking neither.
 
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