UN experts: Israel flotilla raid broke int'l law

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

If the requirement for membership of the UN was that a nation not ever have violated human rights, there would be no UN.

Exactly this.

I have to say, for all the people who seem to have appeared in this thread from nowhere, not one of them has offered anything that could be considered as even slightly constructive.

Not one person has commented on the actual laws that apply, that make their entire argument worthless. And in fact, by looking at the factual errors rife throughout the thread, especially the last few pages, it is clear that no one has even read any of the report.

This is not debating and it makes the Israeli case no stronger.

 

[Degreez]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Exactly this.

I have to say, for all the people who seem to have appeared in this thread from nowhere, not one of them has offered anything that could be considered as even slightly constructive.

Not one person has commented on the actual laws that apply, that make the entire, and in fact, by looking at the factual errors rife throughout the thread, especially the last few pages, it is clear that no one has even read any of the report.

This is not debating and it makes the Israeli case no stronger.

It's because a thread similar to this one was posted in the B\N section and then merged here.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

They were offered by both Israel and Egypt, a safe port to dock their ships, where their supplies would be off-loaded and delivered to the Palestinians. Instead of accepting that offer, they knowingly broke through an internationally recognized military blockade, then refused for several hours to stop when ordered to by the Israeli navy.

So the answer is ABSOLUTELY, it was indeed an act of war.

Actually what this investigation has shown is that Israel had no right to demand the aid be docked anywhere, they had no right to board the ship and they definitely had no right to use deadly force.

An act of war? Actually you have that backwards. Israel boarded a flagged vessel - another country's sovereign land - in international waters no less, making their actions the act of war here. By definition.

You can blame the UNHRC all you want, but what next? Claiming international law itself (which is what damns Israel here, not their actions) is anti-Israel? After all, it is existing law [again] that makes their actions illegal, not some group that are constantly accused of being biased [even though not one person has been able to show me anything which could be considered biased from any of their previous findings].

The thing that makes this situation all the more ridiculous is that Israel have an entire navy, which means that they didn't have to board any ships. They could easily have maneuvered the Mavi using their own ships with no need to even think about boarding it. Why didn't this happen is what I think needs to be asked? Officer incompetence?

 

[digsbe]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

If the requirement for membership of the UN was that a nation not ever have violated human rights, there would be no UN.

What about the requirement to have positions of power regarding human rights? Nations with atrocious human right's records are elevated to powerful positions.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

What about the requirement to have positions of power regarding human rights? Nations with atrocious human right's records are elevated to powerful positions.

You mean like China, the US, Britain, Russia and France?

Most of them have worse human rights records than any third world country you could pick out.

 

[digsbe]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

You mean like China, the US, Britain, Russia and France?

Most of them have worse human rights records than any third world country you could pick out.

I think the only two that would fit the list from what you said would be China and Russia. I am also talking about Lybia, the KSA, Nigeria, Ghana, Uganda, and Zambia. Most of these nations have terrible human rights violations. In the KSA women aren't even allowed to drive or go out on their own. Libya is run by a dictator and China is a communist country that oppresses it's citizens. Any kind of organization made up of members like this should not be taken seriously. This is why the current report that was released is biased and foolish. Look at how many member states don't even recognize Israel's sovereignty. (Notably Libya and the KSA).

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

I think the only two that would fit the list from what you said would be China and Russia. I am also talking about Lybia, the KSA, Nigeria, Ghana, Uganda, and Zambia. Most of these nations have terrible human rights violations. In the KSA women aren't even allowed to drive or go out on their own. Lybia is run by a dictator and China is a communist country that oppresses it's citizens. Any kind of organization made up of members like this should not be taken seriously. This is why the current report that was released is biased and foolish. Look at how many member states don't even recognize Israel's sovereignty. (Notably Lybia and the KSA).

What you fail to recognise is that, while the UN has, and indeed should, investigate all crimes against humanity, the UN was primarily set up to deal with problems regarding countries in conflict because these particular conflicts can often have far reaching consequences (Israel/Palestine conflict affects the entire Middle East).

Operating, and investigating actions inside a country that wants them kept out is a lot more difficult than gathering information from another affected country. Just look at Rwanda for a quick example. It is far more difficult to carry out an investigation in a sovereign country than it is in a country like Palestine who's citizens and government help facilitate the investigation.


The US and Britain [and to a lesser degree France] have committed far more horrendous crimes than you seem to realise. Take Nicaragua for an obvious example - tens of thousands of civilians killed, entire country destroyed and left to rot. Or the bombing of Iraq, or air-strikes in Afghanistan, or.. the list really does go on and on.

Going by the criteria you demand, no country should ever be investigated by anyone at the UN. It's a weak cop-out in my opinion, especially when we consider that it isn't these countries who carry out the investigations, it's experienced and independent judges and lawyers, etc and their methodology is always transparent and indisputable.

 

[William Rea]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

I think the only two that would fit the list from what you said would be China and Russia. I am also talking about Lybia, the KSA, Nigeria, Ghana, Uganda, and Zambia. Most of these nations have terrible human rights violations. In the KSA women aren't even allowed to drive or go out on their own. Libya is run by a dictator and China is a communist country that oppresses it's citizens. Any kind of organization made up of members like this should not be taken seriously. This is why the current report that was released is biased and foolish. Look at how many member states don't even recognize Israel's sovereignty. (Notably Libya and the KSA).

...and any World organisation that doesn't include them will achieve nothing except to create yet another league of white industrialised nations.

 

[William Rea]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

What you fail to recognise is that, while the UN has, and indeed should, investigate all crimes against humanity, the UN was primarily set up to deal with problems regarding countries in conflict because these particular conflicts can often have far reaching consequences (Israel/Palestine conflict affects the entire Middle East).

Operating, and investigating actions inside a country that wants them kept out is a lot more difficult than gathering information from another affected country. Just look at Rwanda for a quick example. It is far more difficult to carry out an investigation in a sovereign country than it is in a country like Palestine who's citizens and government help facilitate the investigation.


The US and Britain [and to a lesser degree France] have committed far more horrendous crimes than you seem to realise. Take Nicaragua for an obvious example - tens of thousands of civilians killed, entire country destroyed and left to rot. Or the bombing of Iraq, or air-strikes in Afghanistan, or.. the list really does go on and on.

Going by the criteria you demand, no country should ever be investigated by anyone at the UN. It's a weak cop-out in my opinion, especially when we consider that it isn't these countries who carry out the investigations, it's experienced and independent judges and lawyers, etc and their methodology is always transparent and indisputable.

You and others have made a compelling case in this thread despite all the usual nonsense that usually accompanies threads like this. I was fairly neutral about the flotilla attack but I am being swayed by the dignified and logical way you have presented your case.

Thanks to all of you.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

You of all people I'm shocked if you actually believe Israel will get a fair shake from the UN.

Don't get me wrong, I hold no high expectations from the UN on this.
To suggest however that this UNHRC document - a document coming from an organization with a rich anti-Israeli past, a document coming from an organization that pretty much deals only with Israel, a document coming from a committee that didn't have any access to evidence and were basing their claims entirely on witnesses accounts (witnesses = soldiers assaulting activists) - has even a shard of legitimacy, is simply wrong.

I will be waiting for the UN investigation, once more, without any high hopes, but even they don't see any legitimacy in the organization they have spawned.

 

[Degreez]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Don't get me wrong, I hold no high expectations from the UN on this.
To suggest however that this UNHRC document - a document coming from an organization with a rich anti-Israeli past, a document coming from an organization that pretty much deals only with Israel, a document coming from a committee that didn't have any access to evidence and were basing their claims entirely on witnesses accounts (witnesses = soldiers assaulting activists) - has even a shard of legitimacy, is simply wrong.

I will be waiting for the UN investigation, once more, without any high hopes, but even they don't see any legitimacy in the organization they have spawned.

I'm still waiting for you to display what evidence you have that the committee panel members were not impartial in their investigation.

I've asked you three times now, and the only time you attempted to respond was with a guilt by association fallacy.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Apocalypse, you shouldn't bother wasting time constantly rhyming off excuses. I have the perfect reply for you to use and you have permission to just copy and paste it any time you fancy trying to defend Israel against the 'biased' world:

Anything that doesn't conform with Israel's official version of events is biased, obviously anti-Israel (regardless of the content) and cannot be trusted for no reason other than it makes Israel look bad.

It's a far more honest approach than constantly screaming victim.

Edit to add - what Degreez said. There has still been not one legitimate reason given as to why the panel is biased.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

I'm still waiting for you to display what evidence you have that the committee panel members were not impartial in their investigation.

I've asked you three times now, and the only time you attempted to respond was with a guilt by association fallacy.

I believe I've answered you three times now.
The organization is extremely biased, the same biased organization that picks up the committee and the same biased organization that releases the 'report'.
The report itself also, is biased. It depends on activists' claims in its majority and since it has had no access to evidence its basis is overall lacking.
It is a ridiculous joke coming from a ridiculous organization, why won't you wait for the UN investigation?

 

[William Rea]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

I'm still waiting for you to display what evidence you have that the committee panel members were not impartial in their investigation.

I've asked you three times now, and the only time you attempted to respond was with a guilt by association fallacy.

Would that be the biased and anti-Israeli UN that supported the creation of the Israeli State?

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Would that be the biased and anti-Israeli UN that supported the creation of the Israeli State?

Nah, we need to remember that the UN are controlled by Muslims and Africans now. Things have changed, they now control the world, can't you tell by their massive wealth?

No ..wait a minute....

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Would that be the biased and anti-Israeli UN that supported the creation of the Israeli State?

The UN is irrelevant to this discussion, the document was released by the UNHRC, and even the UN with all of the criticism I have for it has condemned this body for its disproportional focus on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
It's a loony agenda-motivated organization that no one gives a damn about except of the loons and agenda-motivated folks themsleves.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

The UN is irrelevant to this discussion, the document was released by the UNHRC, and even the UN with all of the criticism I have for it has condemned this body for its disproportional focus on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
It's a loony agenda-motivated organization that no one gives a damn about except of the loons and agenda-motivated folks themsleves.

Just to mention that disproprtionate focus does not in any way, by any stretch of the imagination, discount the validity of investigations. Something you are clearly unable to comprehend. Or at least unable to acknowledge.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Just to mention that disproprtionate focus does not in any way, by any stretch of the imagination, discount the validity of investigations.

When an organization that is supposed to be dealing with international issues is focusing on one single nation more than it does on every other nation combined, then it's symptom number 1 for being an extremely biased organization.

Something you are unable to comprehend, or at least unable to acknowledge.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

When an organization that is supposed to be dealing with international issues is focusing on one single nation more than it does on every other nation combined, then it's symptom number 1 for being an extremely biased organization.

Something you are unable to comprehend, or at least unable to acknowledge.

You basically just answered for me. 'INTERnational' [ie. between two countries]. Other countries with human rights violations harm their own people. This is called national.

Look, I have already addressed the possible reasons behind this targeting more than once. You fail to acknowledge them or even to debate what I say. You employ a blatant form of anti-intellectual debate that is deplorable to say the least.

I already provided you with a quote to use, I think you'd be as well to.

 

[Apocalypse]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

You basically just answered for me. 'INTERnational' [ie. between two countries]. Other countries with human rights violations harm their own people. This is called national.

Even if there was any truth to this(and there isn't, international in its common meaning implies on worldwide, an international organization deals with world wide issues, not necessarily between two countries), then it would simply mean that I was wrong, as the UNHRC is supposed to deal with human rights, no matter who is violating them and what are the details.

Look, I have already addressed the possible reasons behind this targeting more than once. You fail to acknowledge them or even to debate what I say. You employ a blatant form of anti-intellectual debate that is deplorable to say the least.

I already provided you with a quote to use, I think you'd be as well to.

Your arguments promote fictions, I have no interest to waste my time on fairy tales.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Your arguments promote fictions, I have no interest to waste my time on fairy tales.

You don't even make an argument. Everything in nearly all of your posts is basically the same perpetuated empty rhetoric. You 'have no interest' because you have no case.

 

[Gardener]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

You employ a blatant form of anti-intellectual debate that is deplorable to say the least.

I already provided you with a quote to use, I think you'd be as well to.

If his debate is anti-intellectual, then I guess your reliance on hate sites devoid of any balance whatsoever must be the height of intellectualism.

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

PM me with the sites you are referring to please.

 

[Gardener]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

PM me with the sites you are referring to please.

Well, there is always this one, which is the listed source for your very recent posting on "Jewish terrorism".

Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

 

[expandmymind]

Re: Gaza flotilla attack: UN report condemns Israeli 'brutality'

Well, there is always this one, which is the listed source for your very recent posting on "Jewish terrorism".

Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

So one examples you equate with my having a 'reliance' on hate sites? This doesn't stand up.

Also, the examples given are sourced. Books and page numbers. So your claim becomes even weaker.

Not to mention I didn't enter the site you linked to.

But you can feel free to debate the content of any of my posts.